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| Thread: Ethics |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Nidhgrin
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baking cookies from stardust
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posted October 22, 2002 10:57 AM |
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Ethics
In many, if not all, political debates here at the HC, the topic of 'religion' seems to pop up. A number of posts later, people decide to get back 'on topic' and the issue is closed. Since this happens so often I thought it might be a good thing to start an alone standing ethical discussion here. I am aware that other members have already brought up highly interesting philosophical, religious or ethical matters, but usually the starting post is rather short. Being short, these posts do usually not provide enough resources for lots of feedback. As a result, the meagre amount of replies that are posted are mostly short themselves. An ideal target for tossers, who can kill the defenseless thread in no time and send it into oblivion. This highly personal long post is an attempt to launch a mature ethical discussion. I'm not asking any of you to follow and agree with me on everything. The text below is my personal view on a number of ethical questions and is by no means 'the truth'. Feel free to comment, disagree or add more to this, or just explain us your personal view on things. That's what this thread is for.
1. Everyone believes in something:
Every person needs something to believe in. A goal in life, a 'why am I here, what's my purpose', 'what do I stand for'... Even people who are atheïst think about their future, have moral values and think about their actions. People who don't, or don't think enough and just wanna have fun all the time without looking back will have a major problem later. Be it a mid-life crisis or depressions when they stop working when old, they will be scared to look back and when they do... trouble is on its way. Questions like what have I done with my life so far, does it satify me, what should I have done, where am I going, is it too late to change now... people with strong beliefs won't have that problem, or at least not so bad. This all to prove that believing in something is necessary in life and is never wrong.
2. Religion:
Everyone has the right to believe in anything they want, and to practice their beliefs, as long as they don't hurt other people by doing so. The essence of all religions and the 'holy books' involved always contains, what I like to call, 'basic thruths'. Often they're not more than general thoughts or ideas, sometimes in the form of stories but they always hold precious moral and ethical values. When you compare different religions, you'll find out that many of these basic thruths can be found in all of them. Holding this in mind, one cannot possibly conclude that a certain religion would be bad, or that one religion would be better than another one. They're only different.
What CAN be wrong is the interpretation of holy texts or key values of a religion. Misinterpretation, not only by individuals, but also by institutions that have evolved around religions. As an example I could for instance talk about the influence priests have on the people by stating their opinion in church, or the interpretation and implementation by the roman church as main institution in the case of the catholic religion. Some random misinterpretations by the roman catholic church are for example the fact that women can't be priests, wars 'justified' by the church (referring to the holy crusades here, at least some of them). Especially religious institutions that worship a single god and see people with different beliefs as heathens they have to convert or slay, have made countless mistakes and still do (thinking about judaism, christianity, islam). But other religious institutions have also made serious mistakes (the caste system in hinduism that economically oppresses the lower social classes for instance).
What could be the reason behind these misinterpretations? Are the basic thruths wrong then?
No, the basic thruths themselves are not wrong, the problem is far more complicated than most of us realize. Every human has both a desire for leadership, and an urge to be responsible over other people. The cause for that is the parent-child pattern we grow up in. Our parents are our leaders, later we have our teachers, our bosses, ... At some points in our youth we revolt against this, resulting in a need to have more responsabilities in life ourselves. This actually starts from a very young age already. Playing with dolls, playing police officer, having pets, later kids and perhaps employees or people who work for you, ... This pattern can never be broken. As a result, people who stepped into a young religion needed leadership too, spiritual guidance is a nice word for that. Thus, out of this need, religious institutions started to grow that differed from religion to religion in functioning and layout. Those early religious institutions did their best to forge the basic thruths into rules and laws, easily understandable and applicable for the illiterate crowd. They did this by looking around them at other religious institutions and were also heavily influenced by the religious rules and laws of their ancestors. As time passed, some values changed. The basic thruths did not, but the rules that were made many generations before became inapplicable, irrelevant, unadapted and sometimes even untrue. This was noticed by the religious authority and rules and laws were edited, new ones created, and some maybe even cancelled. This happened many times through the course of history and it needed to be done. Here's where the first signs of trouble emerge. At some point, and I've got no clue why it happened (but it did in so many religions and so many times that there must be an explanation), the religious leaders 'forgot' about the basic thruths and instead occupied themselves with working on the laws and the rules. As a result, people forgot what the religion is really about and in stead held the rules and laws as the basic thruths, and stopped questioning the original purpose of the rules. Slowly, things got out of balance and flaws sneaked into the religious system. On itself this is not such a big deal, but the backdoor it creates is a major threat to the health of a religion.
Backdoor? What are you talking about?
People in power, especially monarchs and dictators who have nothing to fear from opposition, always have a desire for more power. This is perfectly human, and could be related to the parent-child pattern I brought up earlier. In the past (and unfortunately still today) political leaders saw religious institutions grow to powerful organisations that had a huge influence on the population. So much influence in fact, that they could inspire the masses to revolt against the king (or emperor, dictator, ...). The political leaders soon realized that these institutions were best kept as friends, rather than enemies. Through donations and other favors such as punishing the practice of other (smaller and less powerful) beliefs to turn the biggest one into the only one, most of these leaders succeeded into winning the religious authorities for their cause. This poisoned the religious institutions because the spiritual leaders now had 'worldly power' within their grasp. The worst consequence of this was the abuse of power on either religious and political sides. Holy crusades, conquistadores wrecking whole civilizations, inquisition, the burning of witches to name a few. They are all sad results of the corruption of religious autorities. To my knowledge, and in my humble opinion, buddhism is the only belief that has not been severely affected by this or at least is rather clean of it now. It's one of the main reasons why I can find myself in it.
Another thing I would like to discuss is the worshipping of one or more higher beings or gods. At first sight I don't have a problem with that at all. The danger lies in personalizing that god, assigning him/her attributes and superhuman powers. People who do this can hide after their image of god saying 'god wanted it to happen' or 'god instructed me to do it'. This is a dangerous and unhealthy attitude and can/will probably lead to immoral behaveour. Every person is responsable for his/her own actions and can't deny the errors they make. Additionally people got to have the courage to face reality and deal with problem situations when they occur themselves. Sorry to disappoint them, but god won't solve it for them. I know people can draw great strength and courage out of their belief for a god during hard times, a sentence like 'god will give me the strength' is an example of that. Therefor I agree that believing in a higher being is not a bad thing, but personalizing god and using god for your own purpose is. Personally I believe in a force that connects everything in nature. The similarities between life forms, symmetry in nature, the beauty and uniqueness of every plant and animal on this planet, feelings like compassion, human reasoning, the communication between beings of different species. It's a miracle, no less. It just asks for a very deep and warm respect. I prefer not to call it god, if you do then I have no problem admitting that you could be true. That... is what 'god' is to me.
3. Violence:
Verbal violence will probably always remain. Humans make mistakes and different persons may have opposing and conflicting natures. Different beliefs may also be a base for conlicts, as may differences in status or wealth. Since no human is perfect, and some people have more patience and diplomacy than others, verbal violence will most likely be used forever. I'm not claiming that verbal violence is good, not at all. I'm only saying that in some cases it cannot be avoided.
I'm not so naive to believe that humankind will one day be without any form of physical violence, but I reject every form of it. It can never be justified. Each person is, how sad that may be, an individual in the first place, then come family, friends, community. Because of this, people get angry sometimes when they feel their rights are violated or their freedom is limited. Again, this is a perfectly human emotion and there's nothing wrong with that. The way of dealing with this anger is far more important. Some try to forget about it (a solution, but not always the healthiest one). Some try to solve it by avoiding conflicts or trying to resolve them in peace (usually this is the best way). Others react by taking vengeance on the ones that are subject of their anger in stead of dealing with the problem itself (unfortunately this option is used by many people and can have devastating effects and escalate situations). That last category of people often use physical violence to settle problems. Physical violence, in any existing form, is NEVER a good way to solve a conflict. It is the thing that has caused the greatest number of tragedies and deaths in the history of mankind. Why will it never go away then, since all sane people seem to dislike it? Simply because some people have lower or less moral values, meaning they can perform actions that fall outside of your reference pattern or seem (are) irrational to us. Not knowing how to respond from past experiences and shocked by the irrationality, basic instincts bubble up to the surface and force us to use physical violence in some rare cases. This way, a perfectly sane and peaceful minded calm person can perform actions of great violence in a limited number of extreme scenarios. An example perhaps might be something like this: some sick person broke into your home and killed your wife and kids, you come home late and after discovering the horror you hear that the offender is still in your house. You go down to call the police but at the bottom of the stairs you see the murderer standing before you with his back faced to you. In this case it's perfectly understandable that you take the first imaginary object and smash it onto the head of the killer, you might even repeat that action until all that remains of the killer is a pile of bloody remains. Your act of violence is understandable, but even in this extreme case it isn't justified. When facing immoral actions, the choice for physical violence may seem to be the only one, (it's usually the fastest one, that's right) but it rarely is. A human being does never have the right to hurt or damage the physical integrity of another human being. Capital punishment is therefor highly immoral as well. Violence is ever a solution. Even not as a reaction against other violence, it only makes things worse.
Another type of violence may not be as obvious to see. I couldn't have written my ethical points of view without including this. Though I am certain that many of you won't agree with what I will say now, it is such an important issue that it has to be discussed. Breeding, killing and eating animals. I object to all three and cannot justify the reasons behind them, I never will. All animals, be it the smallest shrimp or the biggest elephant, they all have (in their natural environment) the freedom to do whatever their instinct or mind wants them to do. Who are we as humans to decide over life and death of other beings? What gives us the right to limit the freedom of other beings? To injure them, imprison them, use them for testing purposes or experiments? The only possible ethical answer is that we do not have that right, it is highly immoral.
Let's first get rid of some common misunderstandings. Homo sapiens sapiens is not a carnivorous species. It wasn't until the final chapters of the 'sapiens species' that we started eating meat. At first as scavengers, eating meat from leftovers found on carcasses abandoned by predators. Later as tools got more and more ingenious also as hunters, but it never has been our primary source of food (energy). It wasn't until the sixties of of the previous century that common people started consuming meat on a daily basis. Proof for our not-carnivorous past are our intestants that are way too long to digest animal proteïnes (they actually start rotting sometimes before they are excremated) and are more adapted for processing vegetables, fruit, mushrooms and roots. Our teeth are a second indicator. The many maulers and our front teeth (for cutting, not ripping as carnivore's front teeth do) prove that non-meat foods composed the largest part of our meals throughout history. Vegetarians or people leading a vegan way of life can collect enough elementary resources even though they never eat meat. In fact, the consumption of meat (especially large amounts) compromises our health and shortens the human life with years. Diseases, parasites but currently also accumulated amounts of pesticides, herbicides, hormones, poisonous spore elements, ... enter our body easily through a diet of meat. The amounts of fat in most kinds of meat (excluding sea creatures but those suffer more from poisonous elements in their biome) is alarming and extremely dangerous for cardiovascular diseases. The large number of free radicals greatly increases the chance for developing certain types of cancer. Additionally the amounts of proteïnes in meat are so huge that our body is unable to benefit from most of it. I'm not making this up, these are proven cold hard facts. Surprisingly few people know about them though, and if they do, they often don't realize the severeness of the effects. As you can see, the consumption of meat is more of a threat than a saviour for the human body. This is only the rational conclusion, then there remain the moral problems that arise when you eat meat.
These days, hamburgers, chicken nuggets and the like hardly remind us of the animal it came from. Livestock such as cows, pigs, ... are actually imprisoned for life on small patches of land. They're forced to breed in unnatural ways and when their 'children' are old enough, they're taken away from the mother, given an 'altered menu' (to make them grow faster among other reasons) and then slaughtered, sliced, baken and eaten. They end up in our sewers. Chickens are kept in factory boxes slightly bigger in size than their own bodies. They're given 'powerfood' and have to lay eggs until they are 'exhausted'. Then they're exterminated, in some cases they even go away with the garbage. 'They've served their purpose.' Foie gras, caviar, the list never ends. The amount of atrocities done to animals is simply astonishing. If a person were to live the life of these 'animals for consumpion' for just one day, they'd probably commit suicide before the end of it, or be slaughtered already of course... These unbelievable, immoral actions take place on a daily basis, and that worldwide. Yet most people fail to recognise that. If we humans, who love to call ourselves rational and moral beings, do such horrible things to the fellow creatures on this planet, isn't it surprisable that there is so much violence and agression among our own kind?
4. Racism and discrimination:
Territorialism and racism have most probably always existed. The increased individualism and materialism these days have certainly worsened that situation. There are two main reasons behind racism in my opinion. The first one is a result of the need humans have to belong to one or more groups (countries, religion, community, ...). People want to identify themselves with ideas and ideals and wish to be part of a bigger whole. Though these groups have a lot of positive effects for the people in it or sometimes even for society worldwide, some groups also have a number of less desirable side effects. Groups create a 'we' and a 'they' atmosphere. We are the people that belong to our group and they are the ones that do not belong to it. The people in a group all share common goals and interests, have similar ideas and they often belong to the same social class and have almost equal income levels. Because of the unfair distribution of wealth and power accross the globe, entire groups can grow envious or jealous of others. This is the first thing that can initiate racist thoughts accross borders of countries, unions or continents.
The second cause for racism is at least as important as the first. It is the 'fear of the unknown' we all have to a certain degree. In prehistoric times this was what kept our species (with its ever curious and investigative nature) from trying or doing dangerous things. A frightened person can react in 3 ways: run away, try to investigate what scares them and judge afterwards, or try to eliminate the frightening situation (trying to get the danger to run away). This fear of the unknown is still a basic part of all humans nowadays but the situation in which we live in has changed dramatically. Different cultures or 'races' may come over as scary or dangerous, but in a sedentary society, the option of running away is not such a likely choice anymore. People don't want to leave their homes, cities, countries. That leaves us with two options remaining. Trying to get to know the other cultures and realizing that there's no reason to be afraid is evidentually the best way to react. Unfortunately not all people have that courage and would rather see the 'threat' go away.
I dream sometimes, that some day, when all cultures of the world are mixed into a big melting pot, people won't have anything left to fear. They will be familiar with every possible cultural trait there exists. Unfortunately there still is a long way to go. We should not be afraid of people with a differently colored skin, speaking a different language or having other cultural habits. People in other cultures have the exact same questions and doubts as we have and there is no reason to avoid coming into contact with them. Immigrants with a different cultural background enrich the cultural heritage of the region you live in yourself. Trying to block immigrants who come to your country is actually denying your culture some fresh and different views and ideas. There's no reason for racism, we're all humans and the basic thruths are always similar. Immigrants don't come to your country to replace your culture with theirs, no. They slowly blend in and contribute to it by sharing the culture of their forefathers with the inhabitants of their new country.
Discrimination of minorities is another form of racism that is not only limited to 'foreigners' but the whole part about racism written above also applies on that.
5. Some final words:
There, this is it. I'm sure this will provide enough fuel to get some serious discussions going. Feel free to add your own personal beliefs about these or other topics. Or just comment, agree or disagree with what I wrote in the separate parts.
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Hexa
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted October 22, 2002 12:11 PM |
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Hmm just wanted to slam a big QP on ya when I realized that u can't get any anymore!@
Nice thread.
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If you want to realize your dreams >>> you have to wake up!@
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Romana
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
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posted October 22, 2002 12:52 PM |
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hmm..my views on religion
I don't believe in church or have a "religion"
I think religion and church are human aspects of a greater whole and because of that it has great flaws.
I do believe there is something "out there" but what it/he/she does and what it's/his/her purpose is, is unknown.
I like to believe that when I die it will be waiting for me and it would be like coming home.
hmm..I have to think about the rest for a while so
be right back 
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The darkest skies show the brightest stars
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Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted October 22, 2002 01:19 PM |
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Death... afterlife... Two things I do not seem to have covered in my 'book'
Let me be short about the physical part. I believe that when I die, my body will be consumed by nature and processed so that other lives may benefit from it.
I don't think my spirit will rise up to heaven or hell. When I die, my brain will die too and the person who I am will ceise to exist.
However, I do believe in life after physical death. Reïncarnation? No. (hopefully not  ) Eternal life? Maybe.
How can I claim to believe in an afterlife when I say I think the mind dies with the physical body? I'll try to explain my point of view. In my opinion, the human race is immortal. Every day I meet people. Family, friends, colleagues at work, ... I talk to them. I learn from them and adopt certain ideas or ways of viewing things of theirs. When they die, memories will remain. In my mind and in the minds of all the people they've ever known they're still very much alive. When I have children later, I will teach them things I want them to know, and by doing so I will give with them tiny bits of experience I've learned myself from that person who has passed away. When my children have children later, some of the original ideas will still remain. Through friendships and other relationships this knowledge will be part of the minds of all the people in the world in just a couple of generations. That is why humans are immortal. They live on in future generations, until the end of times.
Knowing this, I feel it is my duty to act as good as possible on this world, to contribute to future society in the ways I know or am best in. Doing bad things doesn't only come to the cost of the persons you harm or yourself, you harm the whole human race in long terms. This whole belief gives me the will to go on and have confidence in what I am doing. Though my life is like a pebble in a river, one pebble can make a huge difference.
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Romana
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
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posted October 22, 2002 03:14 PM |
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Edited By: Romana on 22 Oct 2002
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Let's just pretend we truly die with death and by this I mean we become worm food and nothing more..
Ok..what reason do we have then to try and be good if we're not gonna go to a "heaven" in the end?
What is holding us back to start killing others when we feel like it?
Why do we even take the time to lie?
I'm not sure if you know what I mean..But if we would end up as worm food anyways then that all doesn't really matter right?
edit: hmm..this just made me think about the wars the world has seen till now.
Lots of people were killed and such and mostly in the name of "god". I guess that's where religion is flawed..or not?
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Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted October 22, 2002 04:03 PM |
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@Romana: Looking for a reason to exist... A reward after death, or a penalty in case of a bad life. Heaven or hell... These are good ways to give your life a meaning, a general direction you want to take. It can prevent us from doing wrong (killing others in an extreme case, lying as another).
The reward I see before me at the time I should die, is to be remembered as a kind and lovable person. To pass on several good ideas and thoughts to the following generations. To help to make this world a better place.
Indeed, nothing prevents people from destroying, damageing and influencing people in a negative way. They also pass on a lot of things, but when they die I bet they won't be very happy about what they see when they look back at their lives.
Others may need more, or less. But for me, that is enough of a reward. To be assimilated in the pool of human history and future as a positive and warm entity.
@tuapui: Actually, this text is already a summary of my beliefs.  If someone feels the urge to summarize the most important points, feel free to do so. But for me this already is a summary
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 22, 2002 04:12 PM |
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Hmmmmm me like long posts
Damn you Nidghrin you wrote that almost exactly as I would, just better worded man!
My two pence worth
"God" as such does not exist as the way that a single religion imagines him. God is a single being, but the relationship between the god and each individual must be personal and based on experience and a moral code. By this I mean I have not yet experienced a god so therefore I do not yet believe in one, but once this occurs my relationship with one I imagine would simply be based on my experiences with him and a moral code defined by that experience. To extend that, I despise organised religion as it tends towards conformity and fixed belief rather than experience. I don't think you ever can enforce a faith on someone as it is nothing but a comprimise of a truth.
As for death I agree with Nidghrin, your reward is not so much in the "afterlife" but in knowing you have given something good to the world and contributed (no matter how small or large this may be) to bettering the world.
Have to get back to the rest later
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Romana
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
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posted October 22, 2002 04:26 PM |
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@ Nidhgrin..so you do believe there is some kind of hell or heaven?
I think the problem is that there are too many different religions. Don't get me wrong. People can believe whatever they choose of course but I also think there should aslo be some kinda respect for other beliefs.
For instance ..I heard that those suicide bombing..the people who do that truly believe they are following Allah's (or I dunno what his name is) will.
I however don't think that shows respect to other people but who am I to judge it?
What is reality? Reality is in the mind of the beholder..or should I say the eye?
But also I think it's human nature to judge others according to our own standards.
And again belief and respect comes into the story.
gosh..this is tiring..have to take a break now
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The darkest skies show the brightest stars
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privatehudson
Responsible
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 22, 2002 04:48 PM |
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Stiven - Is it much to ask for you to put down your thoughts on the subject or do you have to make silly comments? Do at least attempt to join the ranks of the people having mature ethical discussions!
Romana - Good point, too many "religious" people concentrate on their religion and not on respect for others. That is something that should always be at the forefront of a good moral code.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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AzureMajesty
Promising
Adventuring Hero
Gaea Mother Earth
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posted October 22, 2002 05:10 PM |
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Doubting God is doubting ourselves and this serves only one entity, Satan. Satan has not changed from the time of Adam and Eve till now. He is still striving to produce doubt in all men, and is doing so successfully.
Our purpose in living cannot be "get all you can," and "eat, drink and be merry." Our purpose in life must be noble, pure, and lofty. It cannot be self-centered, for this never brings happiness or selffulfillment . There has to be something in our quest for life that transcends this existence of a few years in a body that gets sick and finally dies, in this desire for physical comfort and security. The heart "has eternity set in it"' as Solomon said, and as Augustine wrote, "The heart of man is restless until it rests at home with God." Our purpose in life, therefore, is to enjoy and serve God while here and long for the time we are at home with our Father.
I believe in God. I believe in heaven and hell (not the hell of fire and brimstone, but the hell of complete non-existence.
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Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted October 22, 2002 05:14 PM |
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@Romana: No, I say there's a heaven or hell for the people who believe in those. For me there's just the worms
In my humble opinion there are no bad religions, so the belief in Allah is just as good as any other belief. Islam bears some very beautiful messages, as do all other religions. The institutions that have evolved around islam and more particulary the fundamentalist imams can have a bad and even catastrophic influence on their followers. They are the ones that inspire people to go suicide bombing, not islam itself. Allah doesn't tell people to go kill their enemies, that is a misinterpretation of the Koran. The fundamentalistic imams abuse Islam to get to their goals and are the true problem behind the volatile situation in the middle east.
Quote:
But also I think it's human nature to judge others according to our own standards.
And again belief and respect comes into the story.
That's very true. We can only use the reference patterns we know of. We may think we do something good, but then it may be seen as something unforgivably bad by another culture. That's why it's so important to come into contact with different cultures and learn about their ways. Only by doing so, we can be certain that our actions will be approved by everyone (or most people).
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 22, 2002 05:26 PM |
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I don't so much doubt god, as the religions and churches behind the organised religions of the world as it kinda clashes with my personal view on how to relate to a divine being.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Romana
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
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posted October 22, 2002 10:53 PM |
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Violence
where does violence come from?
I think that violence is a sign of weakness.
The inability to express feeling with words or rather the right words.
I think language is very limited and wonder what would happen if we could share our feelings on a different level of consciousness.
I believe the way we express anger is taught to us since we were babies. Look at it this way.. If a baby wants something it will start crying because of course it cannot communicate in any other way and there are different cries that supposedly only the parent can understand.
But as we grow up and become "adult" deep down the right way to express anger is still that certain cry.
The mistake in that is that other people do not understand it. Also the relationship between the parents has a great effect on the behaviour of the child. For instance if the father is verbally abusive (or the mother for that matter) that would be perceived as the acceptable thing to do in the eyes of a child.
But character also plays a big role in this.
In conclusion I think environment plays a huge role in violence but of course there are exceptions.
that's just my view of it
gonna take a break again
(wow..what a headache )
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The darkest skies show the brightest stars
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 22, 2002 11:43 PM |
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Hello Romana,
Quote:
Let's just pretend we truly die with death and by this I mean we become worm food and nothing more..
Ok..what reason do we have then to try and be good if we're not gonna go to a "heaven" in the end?
What is holding us back to start killing others when we feel like it?
What reason does the universe have to provide us a heavenlike afterlife? We haven´t existed billions of billions of years before our births, why should this be different after our deaths? It´s quite obvious that afterlife is just wishful thinking.
So why do you try to be a good person although you´re wormfood soon, and forgotten not much longer? Because we humans are social animals. We want to be liked or even loved. A person who behaves in an anti-social way does not have a satisfactory life in the long run, because people will stay away from him. Ethics develop when humans live together in societies, and change when these societies change.
Quote:
Lots of people were killed and such and mostly in the name of "god". I guess that's where religion is flawed..or not?
Religion is flawed when it claims absolute truth for itself. Religion is terribly badly flawed when it threatens nonbelievers with eternal torture, and at the same time claims to be all about love and benevolentness.
Quote:
where does violence come from?
It´s evolutionary, violence has been advantageous for survival. When there have been two groups of humans or (other) animals who wanted to make use of / live on the same land, it was usually the more aggressive group that drove away or enslaved or killed the less aggressive group, and by this was able to put more children into the world who lived through the same process.
By the way, that´s why you girls like men with muscular bodies . In thousands of centuries, they have been better at violence, and by that better to provide survival for your children.
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andiangelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted October 23, 2002 01:06 AM |
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i think life after death is a wish as lews therin says, but you never know...actually its too scary to think of so i just dont, noone can imagine to just stop existing suddenly.
And whats even scarier is the fact that you dont know if its good or bad if it exists...it may even be bad for all of us, you just dont know, so i say dont waste your living time with thinking about it, when it happens you 90% wont even realize.
About religion and violence: religion is a bad thing, there cant be a doubt, too many wars and violence came from it and will come as long as there is religions for the masses.
What annoys me is that if you tell someone "i dont believe in god, go away with your stupid lies" You are the bad and mean person. What many forget is that you are just someone that says his oppinion, you are not "bad" if you dont believe in god.
Now whats the good thing in religion than? id say it gives specially old people hope, something to believe in that their live wont end...but thats overrated, because it causes you to think about that all the time too.
About the "why doesnt everyone go and kill people" thing: it just isnt our nature, we dont wanna do something to others that we dont want to be done with ourselves. Plus, every mother tells her kids what is wrong and what is right.
And another plus, many sometimes might think about seriously killing someone they really hate, but man, its like doing something you know that is idiotic, you just cant do it in the end even if you want. (just like you wont eat something terrible looking if you dont have to).
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 23, 2002 01:56 AM |
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Actually I find it interesting also as to where we come from in terms of our "Soul" for want of a better word. Do people think they come into being when we are born and then move to the afterlife, or do they always exist, waiting for their time on earth, or is reincarnation a reality?
Andi - Well put I would say that belief and faith spring from an experience of god, so people who do not believe in god do not always deny the possibility of a god, just simply that they can believe in one due to their inexperience of one.
Lews - You put the points across well, but your criticism of religion IMO cannot be extended to the criticism of a deity. Religion is responsible for those things because of the actions and interpretations of man, not the deity himself.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted October 23, 2002 03:52 AM |
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I greatly appreciate the time and effort in your openning nihdgrin. However (in short) I believe your conclusion on religion to be erroneous.
It seems in your first paragraph that wanting to get a handle on the concept of the many you have selected comparative passages and ignored the very differing to the degree that they are differing points of view on the same thing? The more of comparative religions I search the more I realize they are very very different ..... though there is quite alot of values contained in the writings and there are lot of parallels.
If things are difinatively different, then how can you conclude, "....When you compare different religions, you'll find out that many of these basic thruths can be found in all of them. Holding this in mind, one cannot possibly conclude that a certain religion would be bad, or that one religion would be better than another one."
If they are different as you have said, "comparing dIfFeReNt religions" then how in the world would you expect people to conclude that one is not "worse/inferior/incorrect/superior/better/etc." then another???? Sounds like having your cake and eating it too to me. Pretty standard "double talk" to try to keep everyone from being offended by anyone it seems to me. I love being at peace with all men and inside myself personally, but still peace can be had even when there are differences/betters/bads/goods in my thinking.
Passing up the glaring differences or exclusive claims on truth I think does each religion/philosophy/world view huge injustice, and possibly even more detriment to one's self.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted October 23, 2002 05:34 AM |
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Last weekend my pastor was talking about faith and doubts (yes pastors acknowledge and experience doubt…we aren’t just spoon fed all the time=-)….well anyway back to the point…he made a point that stuck with me. He said “we can afford to make many wrong decisions in life…but our decisions about eternal life is not one of them”
Nice thread Nidhgrin …though please use shorter paragraphs
When I started reading this thread I thought I would see you along the way Lews
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“By the way, that´s why you girls like men with muscular bodies ”
That explains why girls are constantly throwing themselves at me
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“the relationship between the god and each individual must be personal and based on experience and a moral code. By this I mean I have not yet experienced a god so therefore I do not yet believe in one, but once this occurs my relationship with one I imagine would simply be based on my experiences with him and a moral code defined by that experience.”
Interesting PH…I didn’t think you were open to a relationship with God….learn something new about people all the time Only caution I would have you think about is if there is devil/Satan (the great deceiver, the father of lies, etc)….don’t you think he would love to trick you into believing your experience with him is really an experience with God?
Deth8…he’s alive….he’s alive….nice to see you posting again buddy
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 23, 2002 06:07 AM |
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Hello Dargon, yes, surprise ...Quote:
He said “we can afford to make many wrong decisions in life…but our decisions about eternal life is not one of them”
Sounds to me like typical Christian rethoric of threat and intimidation.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted October 23, 2002 06:59 AM |
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Edited By: dArGOn on 23 Oct 2002
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Man I have been trying to resist arguing with you Lews per my/our challenge/"agreement"...but you are making it difficult
I think we have had it out on religion and should spare others and ourselves (I think our long arguments almost crashed the HC server..hehe)...but just my opinion
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