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| Thread: Chaotic Strategies |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted December 03, 2002 01:40 AM |
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Edited By: csarmi on 10 Dec 2002
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You won't steal my teleport and I'd be quite amazed if you would be able to use your genies.
Remember, you cannot have more, than 7 stacks. Titan, hero, halfling, dwarf, hero, genie, genie? Or what?
That depends on the situation.
If I am the attacker, you won't have 1 stacks of genies, I guess you know why.
If you, that's possible. But what line-up would you use? Really interested in it.
And what if you fail your spells? Is it worth the risk? It is not hard to get 30-50% magic resitance.
Casting forgetfulness on the Medusae is a good idea, but I do not think it is the Medusae you should be concerned of.
Wub, you are right that 10 BD's slaughter 20 Hydrae, but just as you said yourself, it does not really matter.
Edit: I have to add that I never denied this simple fact you mentioned.
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tree
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 03, 2002 01:51 AM |
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for the dragon vs hydra part......there's one thing. Cuz hydra can be affected by magic, so there should be buffs. LIke cat reflex, slayer, blood lust. Also, hydra's advantage is too attack multiple targets, while that is not so clear vs dragon.
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tree
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 03, 2002 03:05 AM |
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...if number is low, i'd say hydra's better. As their attacking strength is about the same as blackie (as they can retaliate, while blackie can't, and a blackie's attack is twice as 2 hydras.) Which is pretty much means nothing.
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tree
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 03, 2002 03:09 AM |
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Quote:
You won't steal my teleport and I'd be quite amazed if you would be able to use your genies.
Remember, you cannot have more, than 7 stacks. Titan, hero, halfling, dwarf, hero, genie, genie? Or what?
That depends on the situation.
If I am the attacker, you won't have 1 stacks of genies, I guess you know why.
If you, that's possible. But what line-up would you use? Really interested in it.
And what if you fail your spells? Is it worth the risk? It is not hard to get 30-50% magic resitance.
Casting forgetfulness on the Medusae is a good idea, but I do not think it is the Medusae you should be concerned of.
Wub, you are right that 10 BD's slaughter 20 Hydrae, but just as you said yourself, it does not really matter.
...it's not teleport i'm stealin', it's the cat reflex.
also, genie...should be in the backline. And disintergret can't reach it. Even there's no extra stack of genie, i can't still cast song of peace, cuz it's urgent to stop hydra. or one of the two hero can.
not using magics on heroes. So it doesn't matter.
medusa is the biggest threat in chaos for me, cuz nothin' can do that much damage. (kills 2 titans per shot! once computer's 68 medusas killed my 6 phoenixs in one shot, and repeated the second turn.)
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted December 03, 2002 10:36 AM |
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Quote:
...it's not teleport i'm stealin', it's the cat reflex.
I know, but that is not enough. Also, if my timing is good, you won't be able to do it.
Quote:
also, genie...should be in the backline. And disintergret can't reach it. Even there's no extra stack of genie, i can't still cast song of peace, cuz it's urgent to stop hydra. or one of the two hero can.
Why would I use disintegrate?
Quote:
not using magics on heroes. So it doesn't matter.
I do not understand it.
Quote:
medusa is the biggest threat in chaos for me, cuz nothin' can do that much damage. (kills 2 titans per shot! once computer's 68 medusas killed my 6 phoenixs in one shot, and repeated the second turn.)
Funny :-)
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Agent00BLeRD
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 03, 2002 02:43 PM |
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The line-up I use against the comp looks like this on the battlefield:
hero, hero, Genies,
single genie, Magi, Titans,
empty, Halflings, empty
This is the formation you get when you use the tightest formation available. This allows you to completely protect the fragile magi from all sides, with the exception of breath attacks. Of course, this formation means instant death if you come up against blackies or cyclops, so a little manual adjustment is sometimes required.
But the plus side is that the three troops in the front can provide excellent shield for the rangers in the back. The genies can cast illusions which can soak up the titans' and sometimes the halflings' retaliations. The single genie is protected by two heroes and is only taken out with a spell like fireball or an extremely fast troop (devil or blackie) and till that happens, he can mirth, song or slow and provide excellent supplementary support. The magi are free to poison and the heroes with their GM combat and high hp act as meat walls, if nothing else.
And btw csarmi, the 30-50% magic res is limited to the hero. Your troops will still be affected by order spells. As for the chaos heroes, they can still be teleported to the order side for quick finishing (teleport works even on GM magic res heroes, I think).
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted December 03, 2002 04:30 PM |
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"Gives 30% (50%) magic resistance to all friendly creatures."
That is what the artifact is said to do.
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tree
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 04, 2002 01:05 AM |
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i've never seen that artifact......30% to 50% magic resistance....that makes might alignment almost useless.
I'm sure it's that cloak thing that only affect heroes.
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emperorsly
Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
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posted December 04, 2002 03:07 PM |
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just another way of chaos:
"the life of hydra"
you need life magic and hydras. bunch of them. give them guardian angels and let them loose. have no other creatures in your army. that way, opponent has to gather all his troops around the hydrapack, making sure that the power of hydra is maximized.
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted December 05, 2002 05:52 AM |
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I'm Back :)
I have been away for 3 days and subsequently have not been able to post any new replies. When I did get back today, I found an extra 12 replies. It came as a bit of a shock to me, since I thought the thread was on the way down to the bottom of the page when I left. Things change.
Back on topic though, I would like to reply to the things that have been said over the last few days, albeit brief. After reading all the posts here it appears to be Wub and Emperor Sly are for Black Dragons and myself, Csarmi and tree are for Hydras. I will give my 1 cent on the situation later on in the post.
More Straegies?
Old School, Wub? Old school maybe by your life here at HC, but 'Old School' here are more things like '4 or 6 towns?' 'necropolis ideas' 'New Creatures''Best level 7 creatures' and 'Dungeon Strategies'. Threads started by LordPaul, El_Diablo, myself, Oldtimer, and Shae_Trielle respectively. Only myself and Oldtimer are posting acitvely these days. I don't feel that it is becoming a yes or no argument, we are exchanging views on how we best play with Chaos, and are consequently leading to conflicting ideas. people play Heroes differently, and one must accept that their strategies will be different. It may create the illusion of a true or false argument, but in my case, I don't believe so.
Thieves
Yes, I thing we can safely say, that we agree on this point, predominantly. I must agree that there are some parts we do not gree on, and I hope I can clear that up with this post.
When you take into account 30 days on a large Extra Large, and sometimes medium map, it isn't very much at all, and after that, the only way to go is profit. I think your figure of 30 days is wrong, though. Moneywise, it will be less than 20. Resource-wise, it depends on the situation. OK. What you say about the thief and exploiting the resources with its stealth ability is an alternative to killing creatures and compensating for its lack of physical strength that a might hero (exception: Lord, Thief) always has. Now, would you rather a level 10 Barbarian, or level 10 Thief? <-(Example)While the thief aqcuires its resources by sneaking passed creatures, it misses out on recieving the well needed experience to gain levels. This means that the thief will need experience from outside sources like ToK. While the Barbarian(or other might hero) can simply destroy the opposing army with brute strength, while gaining experience, getting the resources, and helping the army and the kingdom. IMO, it isn't so much as 'the thief is useless' it is more a matter of who does the job better, and in my opinion it is the traditional might hero. Although, both of them have individual advantages, the might hero(traditional) is the overall winner for me.
Chaotic Strategies Vs. Ordered Strategies
I have to disagree with the statement you made about my strategy being entirely defensive in your post. I would describe it more as a 'Delayed Offense' (Chess Term) where the player waits until the opponent is in a vulnerable position before one attacks. It doesn't matter what the opponent is, because they will be unable to do ANYTHING when they have been terrified. If one does not do that, it becomes an all-out attack between the two forces, and that results in a massive loss of troops. While my strategy is more conservative, I believe it is also more effective. I have tested your strategy for this and I have found it works worse than my own. (Maybe because I am used to it but anyway) I do suggest that you try out my strategy in the game and see how it pans out for you, eh?
You can't be assured of anything with the efreet, as you said, they are all spellcasters and rangers, which means there will be NO FIRE SHIELD. If the nightmare disables the creatures there will be no spells, so the points you make here are irrelevant.
ThE DeAdLy HyDrA Vs. The Big, Bad Blackie 
I remember the time where this exact argument was occurring in another HyDrA orientated thread of mine. A strategic thread. This time, the battle was between myself and Xenophanes (Mr. Black Dragon). At that time, I was the only one supporting Hydras, and everyone supporting Blackies because they were stronger 1 vs 1. The game had just been released, and now, 7 months on, times have changed. The HyDrA now has the majority. The memories of a Black Dragon orientated HC.... 
Offended? LOL. The points you make are invalid, in my opinion. (Also in tree's and csarmi's)
I mentioned Cat reflexes and haste as the main ones, and bloodlust and slayer as secondary spells. As soon as I cast haste, the damage is done for 1 turn. If you then cast slow, they counter each other out, and even when the Hydra has a movement of 3, he would have had a movement of 9 the last turn, so overall, it is equal and the Hydra would have probably made it to the other end, depending on terrain and obstacle placement, of course. And I think you will when you get attack not once, but twice with no retaliation, and 3 creatures get affected. All in one turn.
I agree that you will target my Hydras first, but I will also target your level 4 first primarily anyway, so they cancel each other out.
Well, sometimes, in games, people have 2 castles, and sometimes, they are either Nature, Order, or Life. This gives me a 50% chance of learning exrocism, which isn't a high level spell, and including that hero in the army. Even with that small morale defecit, which is probably more than countered by the current morale, it is an easy way to get exorcism effectively. This also applies to teleport. LOL, well I've stumped myself on my own nightmare tactic. I'm just too good for myself. I agree that that is one shortcoming of the Hydra, it can be affected by negative spells. But this is reversed for the Black Dragon so really, that isn't too much of a loss for it. But Black Dragons wins on that department.
Certainly. Every time I test it out, Hydras beat Blackies every time, of course, I am always the Hydras, but I don't think it can make much difference. I don't like these comparisons too much, since I admit that I could be biasing it here, as you could too, Wub. Xenophanes used the same way to prove his point, but the fact is, it doesn't always happen. People are smarter than that. Hydras special abilities come forth on the combat map with many opponents 1 v 1 is not their cup of tea. Also, if there were 20 Hydras, and 10 Black Dragons split up into 5 stacks, the results would be different, I feel. And I have testedit all out.
Well, you can stick to Blackies, Wub, and I'll stick to my Hydras.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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sos
Known Hero
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posted December 05, 2002 07:07 AM |
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I cannot understand anyone who can even think about getting hydras instead of blackies. 
If I rate level 4 units according to how difficult it is to fight against them hydras will be dead last and maybe faeries will be first (unless I have GM resistant barb). Blackies will certainly be in the top.
As a neutral monster stack hydras are just pathetic - once I beat 10 hydras with 1 Angel with regeneration (it required a lot of flying around tho ). Without magic support hydras really suck big time, while your blackies are as good as ever.
With blackies (and some tactics support) you can attack in round 1 and depending on the configuration you can hit 2 units right away. This means that even in the second row, your heroes are not protected. At the very least in round 2 you can hit anyone anywhere in the map. I consider blackies to be very well suited for killing heroes (except barbs lol) and this is what I usually do first in battles - kill the heroes .
I won't even discuss the adventure map advantage that blackies have
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emperorsly
Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
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posted December 05, 2002 09:37 AM |
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sos,
when gunpowder is not available, sword is better than rifle. but what if you have gunpowder? i guarantee, when youre playing against human, wou wont see his hydras without magic support. so what you can do with hydras alone is irrelevant. 1vs1 is irrelevant. what matters is using them as part of an army, with magic capable hero. as for killing the hero with blackie, (s)he will be quite safe behind the big butt of hydra.
but right you are about the adventure map...
plus the problem of bigness: go to battle with 1 black dragon, take 300 damage, and you still come home with 1 sick dragon, while taking 3000 damage to 2 hydras gives you one dead and one sad hydra. though, you can magically heal the hydras. or resurrect. or angelguard.
what i mean to say is:
dragons are useful for flying aroung and taking mines. they are big, fast, and easy to control -- no thinking required. whereas hydras should be kept for the grand finale, where your huge army counters that of your opponent, with all stackspaces filled, and max magic support.
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Tc_Fear
Famous Hero
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posted December 05, 2002 11:21 AM |
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Quote:
what i mean to say is:
dragons are useful for flying aroung and taking mines. they are big, fast, and easy to control -- no thinking required. whereas hydras should be kept for the grand finale, where your huge army counters that of your opponent, with all stackspaces filled, and max magic support.
well
when
what map s u play GXSL
for grand finale lol
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emperorsly
Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
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posted December 05, 2002 03:07 PM |
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eh, by grand finale i meant the final battle where one of the two human players decimates the other. that kind of event is to occur in any size of map -- S, M, L, wherever. basically anything where there is more than 10 lvl 4 creatures involved. less than that would not be grand enough...
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Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted December 10, 2002 01:41 AM |
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Peace Treaty
I have posted (almost) all my arguments concerning thieves, chaos vs order and black dragons vs hydras and I assume I also heard almost all counter arguments as well. So I guess it is time to try and come to some sort of consensus.
Thieves
The original discussion about thieves was centered about the following statement:
Quote:
While the Asylum may have the strongest units in the game (1v1), their might hero lets them down, in my opinion.
I tried to prove that the Thief hero can be very beneficient and we agreed that after level 3, the Thief can become (quite) useful. After that the discussion centered more around the issue whether the Thief hero was to be preferred over an other Might hero. Here I agree that an Archer hero can often become more useful than a Thief, assuming that you use the 'barbarian rush strategy' with him. Though situational factors of the map such as resource richness and map difficulty may influence the outcome of that choice. Maybe we can even say that building two Might heroes may prove beneficial: the archer for the rush strategy and the thief for the adventure map movement.
Chaos vs Order
This discussion was about how the Order alignment can best be countered by Chaos. Most of us agreed fairly quickly that Chaos should build medusas and black dragons. The issue was more about the efreet/nightmare choice. The most important advantage of nightmares over efreeti is their terror casting specialty, which encourages defensive tactics. Or more specifically a 'delayed offense'.
The most important advantage of efreeti over nightmares is their adventure map movement. An efreet/black dragon army moves with an awesome 29 movement and we more or less agreed that order can be best defeated on the adventure map.
Maybe we could say that efreeti are usually better strategically speaking and nightmares tactically?
Hydra vs Black Dragon
I feel that both sides cannot come to a consensus on this. I am willing to concede that Hydras may eventually reach the other side of the battlefield, but I also say that doesn't compare to the mobility of the Black Dragon that threatens any hero from the very first turn. I also keep saying that the other statistics of the Hydra don't make up for their low adventure map and combat map speed and their magic vulnerability.
I don't even think I am being really biased here. First there was the argument that Hydras easily beat Black Dragons 2 on 1 or 20 on 10. From the beginning I said that this shouldn't be too much of an argument, even though I was convinced that Black Dragons easily beat Hydras. When I posted the exact moves of the battle, it appeared that 10 Black Dragons indeed beat 20 Hydras. However, now I get to hear that these comparisons are not real valid!  I have been saying that all the time, but now the Hydra lovers suddenly seem really convinced of that as well ! I advice anyone who really wants to test the Hydra vs Black Dragon battles well, should make moves for both creature sides. But what would be even better is to make an 'apparently-no-so-old-school-thread' ()titled: 'Behold: battle of Death(?) vs Chaos.
Well, does this sound reasonable to all?
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted December 10, 2002 11:53 AM |
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aahh..hydras
my homm3 majesty,
how i wish i could build hydras instead of blacks.
hmm,,or maybe i can?few more losses wouldnt mind
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Agent00BLeRD
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 10, 2002 01:33 PM |
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All we've been talking is about chaos vs. order. What about other alignments? Let's start with nature.
What chaotic strategies should be adopted when fighting a nature aligned opponent?
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted December 10, 2002 02:03 PM |
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Good question.
I won't reply it, cause I don't want to harm my beloved nature.
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planeswalker
Famous Hero
Chaotic Good
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posted December 11, 2002 12:09 PM |
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Magic
In my opinion, it is a strategy to own not just Chaos magic, but order magic too. Remember: opposites attract (anyone played the gathering storm?)
Dispel is vital against order, so that means you'll need only basic order magic. The problem is to get the spell (you can't build any conservatories and such).
But the chaos magic, such as inferno and lightning is of course also vital!!!
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted December 11, 2002 03:46 PM |
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Your Chaos hero has only 4-5% chance to get Order Magic naturally.
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