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| Thread: TAZAR vs HACK |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 30, 2015 12:40 PM |
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adriancat said:
I can certainly tell you that Tazar > Crag Hack. I don't know why, but Armorer heroes are always tougher than Offense heroes 
Crag Hack > Tazar any day.
Even if Tazar would be better at a very high level end battle wise, it is from my experience preferable to have a higher offense than defense when clearing the map and so allows for faster expansion. Let us not also forget the Barbarian skill system which usually goes in your favor, giving you the goodies you desire.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted July 05, 2015 01:29 PM |
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ebonheart said:
adriancat said:
I can certainly tell you that Tazar > Crag Hack. I don't know why, but Armorer heroes are always tougher than Offense heroes
Crag Hack > Tazar any day.
Even if Tazar would be better at a very high level end battle wise, it is from my experience preferable to have a higher offense than defense when clearing the map and so allows for faster expansion. Let us not also forget the Barbarian skill system which usually goes in your favor, giving you the goodies you desire.
+1
offense > defense any day and this comes from a person who loves to play defense heroes!
The main idea you should hold is the following.
- Having greater offense helps you kill the enemy faster!
- the faster you kill the enemy the less damage your troops will suffer.
- Having greater defense reduces the damage troops receive.
- the slower you kill your enemies the more times they will have the chance to deal damage to your troops.
Basically playing with defensive races is harder.
I cannot neglect the fact that at late stages of the game having a lot of defense really really has its benefits too:
- keeping your units in big numbers. Because of high defense you suffer small to none casualties even in big PvE battles against tier 7!
- greatly improving efficiency of spells like resurrection and sacrifice.
- defensive faction benefit from more special abilities which potential stays relevant the whole game
Some examples:
H3: fortress - Gorgon - death stare, Hydra 6-hex-attack, basilisk petrification.
H5: fortress - Runes, Thanes special attacks, Rune priests cross attack, dragons return damage ability, berserkers bash ability, harpooners snare ability, bears - fear and bash.
The more defensive the race the better abilities it has. I dont know if this is made by purpose from the creators but to me it makes sense.
If I have to sum it up:
- offensive heroes have better early game.
- defensive heroes have better late game.
- offensive heroes are easier to play and hold the edge in a PvP game.
- defensive heroes require extra thinking and are harder to play, they suffer in PvP because they get to the treasure areas later than the offensive heroes.
It is the same in H3 and H5.
P.S.
In H3 magic heroes are worthless even if you use the world tournament mod improvements.
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morgan_le_fey
Famous Hero
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posted August 12, 2015 09:08 AM |
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soly with the lightning blast was my favorite. soly wasnt on the front of the box for nothing you know. i also like caitlyn. 500+ gold and intelligence. very nice combo. i never played necro much but when i did i went with clavius because he served willingly and well.
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Anil
Known Hero
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posted April 26, 2016 05:45 PM |
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I watched a lot of tazar vs hack matches. I myself tested. Tazar is better hero %100. Because hack is very need mass haste spell for rush to one tazar's unit. But tazar no need magic for own army. Also tazar can disrupt to hack's mass haste spell with mass slow. Also Rush to one unit tactics is useless against Tazar because armorer sipeciality always useful. But attack specialty is useless when tazar rush to one hack's unit. Because you have only one retaliation. In next rounds, hack's army are vulnerable.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 26, 2016 05:54 PM |
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Very simplistic approach, let me guess, you gave equal army, skills and spells for your test?
Tazar needs magic to level up, just by staying up and taking hits he doesn't become better. Then since the levelling process is killing before being hit, Hack will do it much better. Then for final battle, it depends on too many variables to give always same definitive ranking.
Both are crazy OP heroes and should be removed from tournaments. It is too unfair to ALL others, this is a matter of having % a lot more by simple luck, getting the best heroes in tavern day 1.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted April 29, 2016 10:10 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Both are crazy OP heroes and should be removed from tournaments. It is too unfair to ALL others, this is a matter of having % a lot more by simple luck, getting the best heroes in tavern day 1.
Crazy OP is putting it mildly. They are gamebreakers and it has always puzzled me that logistic heroes have been banned but never really the 5 characters with the greatest impact on end battles (crag, taz, mep, neela and gund). While logistic heroes are also extremely powerful I find them somewhat annoying to use as in many cases, they tend to outrun the other chainers.
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted June 11, 2016 07:48 PM |
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I honestly do not know what to think about the fact that this community still couldn't decide whether hack or tazar is better. All I want to point out is the calendar. It is 2016, guys !!!
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 11, 2016 07:52 PM |
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted June 11, 2016 07:59 PM |
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Fallout 4 - survival mode is taking all my time recently. I guess I need some more time before I start feeding the cherrypoppers 
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OldLich
Hired Hero
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posted June 11, 2016 08:00 PM |
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Can't expect people to rationally conclude that hack or tazar is better because when things get close or even, they tend to rely in their personal taste rather than in hardcore analysis. 
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 11, 2016 09:51 PM |
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OldLich said:
Can't expect people to rationally conclude that hack or tazar is better because when things get close or even, they tend to rely in their personal taste rather than in hardcore analysis.
Here's the hardcore analysis: Crag Hack will always be better due to the core game mechanics vs the map and Tazar will only knock Crag Hack off his throne at a percent ratio, which will never happens unless you plan to play a game that needs to last a couple of years to give the xp needed to ding that many levels.
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morgan_le_fey
Famous Hero
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posted October 31, 2017 08:46 PM |
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madmartigan said:
I honestly do not know what to think about the fact that this community still couldn't decide whether hack or tazar is better. All I want to point out is the calendar. It is 2016, guys !!!
the thing is 1,000,000% attack fails against 100% armorer and tazzy vs crag was 100% attack vs 50% armoror.
the reason is that 100% armorer is invincible to all but magic attacks which become irrelevant for comparison in this discussion.
still i did a test where i gave both 200 gremlins and various assorted armies, used no magic and allowed crag and tazzy to have it out. i also edited the monsters so they did not have variations in defense and such. when tazzy attacked first he held a small advantage as i recall but when crag attacked first he won them all but one.
still this is not the final deciding factor because the game wasnt all just about the final fight but being able to clear the board more efficiently to get to your opponent in better shape and i believe taz had more of an advantage there since it was far more important to avoid damage from the monsters rather than taking it.
myself i always liked to get there first with the most but i knew if i went against crag with tazzy in an even fight that was not good.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted November 30, 2017 04:27 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 11:37, 19 Feb 2018.
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Quite interesting discussion. I always assumed that, since offense is double the bonus of Armorer (which is also bugged vs towers), Offense would always win. Specially considering attacks in H3 are not simultaneous so offense *IS* the best defense literally - you kill their creatures before they retaliate, so they deal less (or no!) damage to you in return.
Turns out reading, it's a lot more fuzzy than that.
Philosophically and flavorwise I tend to favor defense as the underdog; however in my "mental calculations" attack is superior. The offense hero can prepare to strike first and give a decisive blow with mass haste, fast creatures (to cross the map and also start first), and tactics. What can the defensive hero do to take advantage of their specialty? Not much. Magics such as resurrection will be useless in a giant mass battle, because of the weakness of magic. And soon their creatures might become outnumbered and the defense player enter a death spiral against the superior offensive numbers (also superior because Crag Hack can win battles against map guards faster).
So, defense player is at an inherent tactical AND strategical disadvantage. It doesn't matter if the damage calculation can go ultimately in their favor. At the end, it only matters who strikes first and hardest. And a smart Crag Hack player will up their own defense (with training like colisseum and war school and artifacts), not attack, so the puny strikes of the armorer-specialty defense hero are useless, because of their low attack value (the smart armorer player will up their attack, and get creatures like Hydra to maximize their damage potential; but unless they get something like Titan's Gladius, it will be an uphill battle for them).
Except very special circunstances, a smart Offense player will always beat a smart Armorer player. Not only that, but it will beat them much easier if they get to them closer to the beggining of the game, where the base 30% rate of offense is much better than the 15% armorer rate. And even in huge maps with lots of experience, the map/combat control and first striking will swing the balance in Crag's favor, while the defense guy can only turtle and wait for its own demise.
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted December 05, 2017 11:36 PM |
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On my side it depends also if we count their Faction as a whole or not. I don't like Bastion creatures, and I love Fortress bestiary (except against Necropolis).
Else it depends on my opponents:
-If I know I have to face powerful casters, Hack is better IMO: Defense is useless against Damage Spells, while a big Attack allows you to end the battle quickly, and so reduce the number of Spells your enemy can use. (That said a well placed Berserk can completely destroy Hack.)
-If I know I will play first, of course Hack is better, simply because you will kill most of your enemies without retaliation (or you will only suffer low damage).
-If I know my opponents will act first and have a good chance to have Haste/Prayer, that means they can strike first, so Tazar is better in my book: because a dead creature/stack cannot deal any damage, even with infinite Attack, while a good Defense can allow you to keep a stack alive, which may be enough to block a Shooter or to trigger an enemy Retaliation.
So IMO there is not "one is better than the other", and, overall, I prefer Tazar speciality which is well matched with my playing style. I hate when a big enemy stack get Moral (or are too fast) and slaugther my troops, and with a good Defense I decrease these random losses and make my army more robust in the long runs, while a huge Attack would not make any difference, especially when one or 2 strike(s) are enough to destroy an enemy stack anyway.
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Zaio-Baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 29, 2017 03:16 PM |
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Tazar rulz ! The higher the hero level the more advantage Tazar gets.
Lets say that both heroes are lvl 30, have expert offense and expert armorer and have equal might stats - 40 att/20 def for Hack and 20 att/40 def for Tazar. Lets also say that each hero has 1 stack of 2 Archangels. What will happen if they fight ?
2 Archangels have 30att/30def and deal 100 dmg. 40 att Hack attacks 40 def Tazar and 20 att Tazar attacks 20 def Hack.
At lvl 30 Hack's melee units will deal 175% melee dmg - 130% from expert offense and 45% from Hacks specialty. At lvl 30 Tazar's units will have 37,5% melee and ranged dmg reduction (15% from expert armorer and 22,5% from Tazar spec)
Hack's Archangels attack - they deal 175dmg that gets reduced by 37,5% and Tazar's Archangels take 109, 375 dmg.
Tazar's Archangels attack - they deal 130 dmg (exp offense) that gets reduced by Hacks expert armorer skill by 15 % and Hack's Archangels take 110,5 dmg.
So at lvl 30 Tazar already has a small melee advantage and lets not forget that Tazar's bonus works for melee and ranged attacks, while Hacks bonus works only for melee attacks. So with both heroes at lvl 30 Tazar has small melee advantage and a huge ranged advantage - 37,5% ranged reduction for Tazar vs 15% for Hack.
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
channeling capybara energy
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posted December 29, 2017 04:25 PM |
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Math looks off. Hero special is not additive, so it's not as straightforward as you think.
Anyway, as many others have said before me, Hack is better unless we allow for mods and time for Tazar to reach absolute damage negation. An offensive strategy works better against the map, which means Hack will have better stats and better army given equal time to prepare.
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Zaio-Baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 29, 2017 06:16 PM |
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The_Polyglot said:
Math looks off.
Math is definitely not off
Tested it in game, this is exactly how it works. However, the dmg is rounded, Tazars Archangels deal 110dmg to Hacks AAs, and Hacks AAs deal 109 dmg to Tazars AAs.
At lvl 30 Hack gives +150% bonus to offense skill and Tazar gives 150% bonus to armorer skill. Offense skill grows from 30% to 75% and armorer skill grows from 15% to 37,5%.
Armorer specialty is no joke at higher lvls
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
channeling capybara energy
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posted December 29, 2017 07:40 PM |
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I stand corrected then.
Point stands, as Hack clears map faster, advances faster. Even though in an ideal one on one the matchup becomes increasingly weighted towards Tazar - who CAN advance to the point where he effectively nullifies damage dealt - it will never be an equal fight in game.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted January 05, 2018 06:34 PM |
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Edited by natalka at 18:42, 05 Jan 2018.
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Ok the math is good but who plays till level 30. You should consider a lower level and then Crag wins.
I think we shouldn`t take into account their factions because many players choose Crag or Tazar to be a main hero even when playing with other starting castles.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 04, 2018 06:35 PM |
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natalka said:
I think we shouldn`t take into account their factions because many players choose Crag or Tazar to be a main hero even when playing with other starting castles.
Of course, it doesn't matter if you are playing Castle, Tower or Inferno, if Crag or Tazar appears in tavern week one, he is the main hero. That's why Salamandre talked about luck and their being banned.
Curiously, Neela, Mephala, Gundula or Corkes don't put the same problem, while they are quite OP themselves they aren't so unmatchable by others like Shakti, Kirre or Ivor. While the faction you're playing is not significant, their own classes are.
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