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| Thread: Does Religion fall apart once you decide to pick and choose? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 24, 2002 12:32 PM |
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Besides, that an almighty god creates sinners (almightyness should include the capability to make non-sinners instead, shouldn´t it?), and then goes on to punish them for being sinners - sounds to me much more like some kind of evil demon than an all-loving god.
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If everyone on earth said a way to be good, and God said thats not good, then it's not good.
Yeah, and if your god tells you to hijack a plane and dump it into the middle of a skyscraper, then it is good and must be followed, right?
Even if we forgot about these numerous logical fallacies and assumed that such a god really existed, that is almighty yet so egotistic, that it needs some millions of lesser creatures to sing worship songs to it and kiss its ass 
all the time, I would consider it a laughing figure more than anything else.
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted December 24, 2002 01:07 PM |
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I've been little misled, but now I know why. First, the latest version of Bible (in my native language), is poorly translated. It says 'gods' where it should say 'sons of the gods'. I've heard that there are lot of other such errors in the latest version. Good job translators!
But wouldn´t this intelligent designer be incredibly complex, too? Who or what has created your Christian god then?
I should propably be flattered, but I am not. You ask these questions from me like I were the omnipotent power behind all, but I am not. So, what you don't understand can't exist, right? Do you understand your own body? Your own mind? Maybe you understand some parts, but those parts you don't, can't exist?
Dismissing the theory of evolution as unproven, and at the same time believing in some mad guru drivel from a 2000 years old book - if you don´t see that something´s from with that, I can´t help you.
I guess you rather read all that stuff from the day's newspaper, maybe that is more approval to you. Or maybe from some science magazine. Heck, it is quite impressive that book has lasted for over 2000 years (speaking about old testament here as well).
Only if this president had written books with containts like: "Thunder, if you want to be a good citizen, you must go and burn Lews´ home! Because Lews is a child of Satan!" are repeated many times.
I guess the direct order would be much more effective method and yelds results faster. But those Nazis used their Lutheric believe only as an excuse to their actions. And they weren't even following it, one of the main rules for people from the God in Bible is not to kill.
Lews, if my argumentation is weak, yours is not surely any better.
Bizud, do I look like somekind search engine to you? You don't have to do more than little research and some thinking to doubt the Theory of Evolution. If you can't do it yourself, well, I'm not certainly doing it for you. I'm not your teacher or parent, or even want such task. By the way, why are you asking me to prove it wrong when you could prove that it is right.
Time will tell.
Merry christmas everyone!
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Bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 24, 2002 01:24 PM |
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Funny, I thought that I had proven it right. In my mind, there's no error in the logic of evolution, but I certainly can't explain it to you without first teaching you basic biochemistry, anthropology, biology, and then evolution itself, all of which sounds like a great waste of time to me, because if you wanted to learn these things, then you already would have. Suffice it to say that anyone who understands the theory of evolution and has a brain larger than a gumball can plainly see that the logic is sound.
Now, you said that some simple research will find the holes in the theory of evolution, correct? Well, I looked around, and I got nothin'. I'm inclined to believe that it's because these holes don't exist, but I'll give another shot at convincing me. Come on, just for argument's sake, name ONE flaw in the theory of evolution.
Anyway, I really don't want to offend anyone here, but the Bible is full of moronisms.
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Leviticus 20:15: If there is a man who lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death; you shall also kill the animal.
HUH? So, if I go and rape a goat, even though the goat obviously doesn't possess the brain capacity to commit "evil," and therefore can't be expected to be judged for any actions it commits, the goat dies? And, I'm killed too?
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Leviticus 20:13: If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
That's pretty messed up, but I've argued about this before. The odd thing, in my mind anyway, is that women aren't similarly executed for being lesbians. Supposedly it has something to do with "spilling seed." Well, maybe, but it sounds to me like they're trying to say that men are somehow fundamentally different than women (other than the obvious physiological differences). It's sexism, pure and simple, though I'm really not surprised that a 2000 year old book is chock full of sexism.
Y'know, why on earth am I still arguing about this? My soul is my own, my life is my own, and anyone who insists otherwise and tries to remove that from me can snow off.
Oh, yeah, and find me a flaw in the theory of evolution.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 24, 2002 02:26 PM |
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But wouldn´t this intelligent designer be incredibly complex, too? Who or what has created your Christian god then?
I should propably be flattered, but I am not. You ask these questions from me like I were the omnipotent power behind all, but I am not. So, what you don't understand can't exist, right? Do you understand your own body? Your own mind? Maybe you understand some parts, but those parts you don't, can't exist?
Of course human brain isn´t designed to understand the universe. You are the one who made the outrageous statement that the complexity of us and our world were the evidence for the existence of a creator god. That is a logical fallacy of course, because it creates more questions than it answers:
Who or what has created such a complex god then?
If you can´t answer that question, then don´t make such an unfounded statement about the reality we experience being evidence of a creator.
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Dismissing the theory of evolution as unproven, and at the same time believing in some mad guru drivel from a 2000 years old book - if you don´t see that something´s from with that, I can´t help you.
I guess you rather read all that stuff from the day's newspaper, maybe that is more approval to you. Or maybe from some science magazine. Heck, it is quite impressive that book has lasted for over 2000 years (speaking about old testament here as well).
There´s a number of religions that lasted for 2000 years and longer. Hinduism for example is much older than Christianity. If you determine truth by age, you should become a Hindu.
The special thing about Christianity is that it had the most militant followers of all, they did the best job at mass murdering and enslaving those who did not share their belief, and destroying their temples. No wonder, looking at the first commandment.
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But those Nazis used their Lutheric believe only as an excuse to their actions.
Luther, the founder of protestantic religion has written several antisemitic books, one had the title "Über die Juden und ihre Lügen", in English "About the Jews and their lies." Full of most ugly propaganda, he appealed for the burning of Jewish homes and synagogues, and for violent acts against those Jews who would not convert to Christianity.
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tree
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 24, 2002 06:58 PM |
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Also i wanna add somethin'...it's sad that human are selfcentered. Universe does not exist because to serve mankind, though many people think so. God is not there JUST to be a servant of urs. He don't have to save, but he wanted to. About that hell, it's the default place for man to go once they die and it's not very pleasant. it's where man should end up because they are bad... They don't deserve to be with God. And though God want people to go to heaven, he won't let the unworthy ones go. Because they are unworthy of the savior. He won't force u to receive it. U have the freedom to choose. Also, if word 'u' will offend someone...hmmm...well i still won't waste my finger strength typin 2 more letters.
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Bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 24, 2002 07:26 PM |
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Also, if word 'u' will offend someone...hmmm...well i still won't waste my finger strength typin 2 more letters.
It doesn't offend me, it just makes you look like a cretin.
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About that hell, it's the default place for man to go once they die and it's not very pleasant. it's where man should end up because they are bad... They don't deserve to be with God.
This just may be the world's biggest crock of snow.
Silly me, all this time I've been thinking that people are predominately good creatures. Guess I was wrong to have faith in humanity, then. You snowing nimrod, if everyone was as bad as you make them out to be, we'd have certainly blown ourselves up by now. CONSCIENCE, MORALITY, THE DESIRE NOT TO HARM OTHERS, these are innately human traits, and that cannot be denied. If I gave you a knife and a puppy, and said "kill the puppy," I don't think you'd do it. In fact, I bet not a single person here could do it. Humans are good creatures that occasionally fall prey to the temptations of evil.
I'm a good guy! I haven't killed anyone, the last time I checked! But you know what, it wouldn't matter if I had, because I would feel bad about it. The measure of a man's character isn't in the evils he doesn't commit, it is in how bad he feels when he inevitably does falter. Because, you're right, people aren't perfect, but if they were as bad as you say, then they wouldn't have an innate emotion like remorse.
And you still haven't answered my question: Why would god create hell at all? Why not just let us vanish into oblivion if we don't make it into heaven? Surely he wouldn't want to see his children suffer.
Heaven is supposed to be enjoyable, right? Yeah, imagine how much fun it would be, looking down on all my friends who didn't make it, flailing their arms as they burn in eternal hellfire. Remind me to bring the popcorn.
I have seen Christians (the infamous Pastor Arnold Murray springs instantlyto mind...hey, don't judge me, it's 4 in the morning, what else is there to watch?) who speak of a doctrine known as "annihilationism," whereby all those who don't get into heaven DON'T spend eternity in hell, they just go *poof* and that's the end of them. Although I can't say I really agree, the fact is that this "doctrine" or whatever one wishes to call it, is both much more agreeable and more logical.
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Bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 24, 2002 07:30 PM |
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And don't ever tell me I don't deserve something again.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted December 24, 2002 10:24 PM |
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We are not search engines, which is true. So we dont know the entierty of anything. I couldve been wrong about things I said here.
The phrase "Like trying to lead a donkey to water" or something close to that comes to my mind.
Bizud, this is just a reminder that this is a conversation. If any of us have said anything to offend you, I'm sorry.
Still, trying to attack someone is pointless. It certainly proves nothing to the point at hand.
Has anyone heard of all the things that prove the bible to be real? Not that it matters, it would be nice to read.
I guess they found a box a month ago, where in these boxes bones were put after the decayment was done to some point.
The box was inscribed with the mans name. Son of Joshua, Brother of Jesus.
It was very uncommon to be known as a brother. Peoples fathers were known, but brothers only for special reasons.
ectect..
I could go on. I'm struggling myself still, and see that determining fact dose not matter. I seek 100% faith, where verification of anything we know is impossible
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 24, 2002 11:08 PM |
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No, I wasn't particularly offended. And, I'm sorry too, I know that I have a sharp tongue sometimes, so I tend to come across as a big jerk, so I'm sorry.
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Doomsday
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 25, 2002 01:08 AM |
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christanity is nothing more than something to keep people on the straight and narrow
For the most part, I agree.
Some are able to live their lives and be good people without something like religion to "crutch" on, others can't.
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Bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 25, 2002 01:11 AM |
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I'm still waiting to see if Thunder, or anyone, can live up to that claim and find me a few good holes in the theory of evolution. Oh, it's gonna be great fun.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted December 25, 2002 07:11 AM |
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“ but the fact that it DOESN'T HURT ANYBODY does! “
Well if it hurts somebody or not can be disputed (those of a religious tradition believe the behavior hurts the person’s soul and relationship with God).
While an actions impact upon others is a major criteria in determining moral behavior it is not the only criteria. For those who believe in divine revelation there is a higher moral law then can be laid down through human reasoning alone. Having sex with animals doesn’t hurt anyone either but I don’t think it is moral. Now I have close homosexual relatives/friends…they are not perverts, they are not child abusers they are not freaks, but according to most major religions the behavior is not moral.
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” Here's a puzzler for ya: Why should I believe in YOUR God over any other god? Christianity is only one of MANY earthly religions, and it certainly wasn't first, so what's special about yours? “
Good question…that is one you can only answer for yourself. I could expand upon the merits of Christianity vs. other religions but in the end it will have to be something you see…something you find…I can’t convince you of it.
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“Now, maybe YOU need to do some research, because the tricky thing about lots of those twin studies is that after the guy who did them, Cyril Burt, died, they went looking through his files to write his biography, and guess what they discovered? “
That is incorrect. You are discussing Cyril Burt who did studies about twins and intelligence…not twins and homosexuality.
The study I was referring to in brief”: “a Northwestern University study by J. Michael Bailey and Richard Pillard of 56 sets of identical twins in which at least one twin was a homosexual, discovered that in 52% of the cases, the other twin was homosexual also. Among 54 sets of fraternal twins in which one was homosexual, the other was homosexual 22% of the time. They also studied adoptive brothers and there found an 11 percent correlation.”
Homosexual activists were major proponents of the study and used it to indicate that there is a genetic basis for homosexuality…but as I mentioned last time…if it was genetic destination there would be a 100% correspondence among identical twins and the fact that there is a higher rate of homosexuality among fraternal twins is a possible strong indicator that environment holds a strong impact on sexual orientation (since fraternal twins don’t share the same genetic makeup anymore than any two other siblings yet the rate of homosexuality among fraternal twins is higher then the population at large).
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“ again if you're saying that homosexuality is a choice that you can blame someone for making, then it must be a choice that everyone has the ability to make, right?”
No I don’t believe homosexuality is a choice…like a choice of picking out which shirt you should wear today. Sexual orientation is a highly complex issue that is hard to change in anyone whether they are heterosexual, homosexual, pedophile, etc. I believe homosexuality is a psychiatric disorder (although the DSM disgarded it in 1973….mostly in my opinion due to political pressure, not scientific research). Psychiatric disorders vary in prognosis…most disorders that develop in young childhood are extremely difficult to change whether it be depression, homosexuality, etc.
So no… picturing or willing yourself to be attracted to a similar sex will not of course work…why would it….we are talking about a complex and serious fixation in young childhood. Even with the best of therapy it is rare to “cure” it (though there are documented case studies of this)…. The main choice when it comes to homosexuality is how one expresses it…same goes with heterosexuality…my biology wants and sometimes screams to screw every cute woman that walks by…but my choice is not to or my wife will beat my brains in
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“Now, this whole "gay gene" thing, they may be more accurate than you think, because the scientists working on decoding the now-completed human genome are pretty confident they've found it. “
To date there nobody has found a “gay gene”. The closest work to my knowledge was that done by Simon LeVay's in his hypothalamus study which was interesting but inconclusive.
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“Another thing about those studies is that they fail to take into account that someone may not be telling the truth about their sexuality!”
One, these type of studies are confidential. Two, in modern society…there is rarely any more closet homosexuals. Lastly, the number of active homosexuals in the USA has been shown in the latest and most thorough research to be about 2.4% of the population a far cry from Kinsey’s laughable research in the area decades ago that stated it was 10% (never mind a big part of his sample was prison inmates and his sample was not random…hmmm big problems for accurate research)
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“Some sources estimate that at least 60% of gay people are still in the closet! That accounts for your twin discrepancy. “
Estimates are funny…you can’t ever prove or disprove them. Second that “closet” estimate might hold in some fundamentalist Muslim society but I can tell you it definitely doesn’t hold in the USA…where people are pretty proud to be gay. IN regards to accounting for the twin discrepancy…ummm no it doesn’t….read the results above
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“What exactly does being in God's love feel like, compared to NOT being in it?”
That is one of the most intelligent and interesting questions I have ever heard asked. It is really hard to describe….it is like being right with the world…like everything clicks and a comfort settles upon you. It is intoxicating while at the same time calming. It feels good to the marrow of your bones. Life is clearer and worries cease to have any power. You see things clearer and in proper perspective. Now for me…”feeling God’s love” is not a perpetual experience as typically I am too stubborn and short sighted as I chose to live my life my own way in stead of in His presence.
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“I think it´s you who needs another history lesson here”
Again I will refrain from the whole explanation…but the assertion was “more people have been killed in the name of Christianity than any other…a quick reference of just the 20th century shows that Mao killed 60-70 million and Stalin killed more than 30 million. Those are hard cold facts.
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“the founder of your religion wrote books where he appealed for the burning of synagogues”
Lews minor point…you are only off by about 1500 years…the founders of Christianity were Jesus and his disciples.
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“if you were an almighty god, would you have such a small ego that you would want lesser creatures to sing worship songs to you all the time?”
Ah…yes he does. Small ego…hmmm if you say so.
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“Now, consider that you also claim that god created the universe. This means that he created hell as well, then, right?”
Actually that is incorrect in my opinion. Theologically hell has been defined in different ways…it is a place of eternal torment, or a place where God withdraws his presence, or not a place at all but just annihilation. Personally I think God did not create hell. Hell is basically anywhere where God completely withdraws his presence. Since God is the creator and sustainer of all things, hell is the absence of all that is good.
I got to say though Bizud…you do ask and ponder intelligent questions which many don’t even bother to think about. You seem to be an honest thinker…I appreciate that.
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“that an almighty god creates sinners”
God did NOT create sinners. He created people who have free will. He desires a relationship and without free will no relationship is possible. Without freedom to sin there is no freedom to act righteous or pursue a relationship with God.
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“You are the one who made the outrageous statement that the complexity of us and our world were the evidence for the existence of a creator god.”
Actually the writer you are responding to is not the one that made that statement…that has been a very strong and respected philosophical argument made centuries ago. Does it prove God…of course not…nothing can prove God…but it definitely implies an intelligent designer or God.
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“The special thing about Christianity is that it had the most militant followers of all, they did the best job at mass murdering and enslaving those who did not share their belief, and destroying their temples.”
LOL…I guess that is why the early church was persecuted constantly and Jesus and all his disciples were summarily sentenced to death…their crime…teaching Christianity…they weren’t political rebels…they weren’t criminals..but nonetheless they were all put to death…typically in heinous ways. Could you please show me ANYWHERE where there is a shred of evidence that the early church murdered or enslaved anyone….well before you burn up your search engine…I will help you out…there is NO evidence of those wild allegations.
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“Silly me, all this time I've been thinking that people are predominately good creatures.”
I think a quick look at history will show that man is definitely not good. We have moments of moral clarity but for the most part the only truly “good” people came from religious traditions (Jesus, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, etc). Atheists of course can act good also…but on the whole…humanity is depraved…just look at the shocking headlines even today in our enlightened society. Just enter my mind for that matter…the wicked thoughts I have at times amaze me…the evil deeds I have committed shame me.
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“Surely he wouldn't want to see his children suffer.”
One word…JUSTICE. God is a being of justice…so while He wants to grant mercy He can not go against his own essence/character and throw justice out the window. If he did he would be an unjust God.
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“can live up to that claim and find me a few good holes in the theory of evolution.”
Well I haven’t studied up on it since my college days…but how about where did the first matter come from? Where is the evidence of plant evolution? Why are there so many gaps in the evolutionary record for the evolution of homo-sapiens? Another one I have always been interested in…but wanted to know from an evolutionist what the answer is….if we at one time we evolved from primates/apes whatever….why are there still primates around? I thought main reason for evolution was survival and extinction in terms of more adaptive abilities…so you would think apes would be extinct if they weren’t able to compete as well thus leading to higher forms (humans)?
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted December 25, 2002 09:06 AM |
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here is my interpertation on Evolution then... well primates to homo-sapiens.
There is no clear cut evolution here as it the line is so fragmented it clearly needs to be rethought.
Why oh why has our brain "evolved" three times the normal pace than any other mammal on the planet? The closest being on the planet close to our evolution speed is the squid.... and even that is far behind ours.
Why do we consume more than we truly need? Why do we destroy the resources of our "mother earth". (I love using quotations)
Simple ... we are foreign we are mutations not evolutions. It is a well known fact that mutated cells tend to consume other cells(as we do).
bah i probably will get towed away for being a crazy person but whatever.
I believe someone or something, "GOD" perhaps just planted us here to kill ourselves as amusement or a science project gone bad. 
I love straying from topic.
GOD exists to people who believe they need something else in their life to make themselves feel better or to fall on when their life goes wrong.
GOD does not exist to people who more or less rely on themselves and realize that they are the ones who pull their own strings, not some master puppeteer.
GOD exists to himself/herself/itself.
Christianity is just a written form of somebodies inner thoughts on GOD  all the stories good or bad were picked up along his/her life.(probably his, as women are not that well off in the christian bible)
Mormonism (or moronism) is just a bunch of people thinking they can do better than the bible.
Budda was just a man nothing more nothing less who achieved many things in life and wrote a book. (kinda familiar huh?)
I am saddened to say i dont know much about gineshu (however its spelled) i rarely look for books that i cant translate.
Satanism.... just another form of christianity just its opposite also taking in some celtic rituals just to make it look "evil" (as a side note; you should read the "satanic bible" its really quite..... errr... interesting i guess made me laugh what gets printed)
Evolutionists... people who are very intelligent maybe not very wise but very intelligent, they want to prove there is a reason for everything. To them there is.
Creationists.... a very broad group of people partaking in any form of relgious belief.
Paganists... this i also dont know too much about but i do know that some of the "rites" were re written in the satanic bible.
Hippies tree hugging, ozone protecting, grass growin(any form of grass ....) people.
There are a billion more "religious" beliefs I just wrote down some that came to mind and my "minimal" knowledge of each one, probably could wrote a better explanation but.. i dont think the community would be too happy with it as it would span several posts maybe pages...
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Zune
Adventuring Hero
of Tatalia
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posted December 25, 2002 03:26 PM |
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Well, in my opinion, it's quite pointless to tell unchristian people anyone how God wants them to live. The first step is to experience His love and accept Jesus as your saviour. Once you start to believe and your faith starts growing, you will eventually live more according to God's will.
Why, are you too weak-minded to follow your own will? Again you prove my point religion is based solely on a human-generated need to `believe' in something, some rules to `follow' to make you `better'
Call it weak-minded or whatever you want; God knows what is best for me, and therefore, when His will is different from my will, it's because my understanding is inferior. Sometimes God has told me to stay away from something, and when I have ignored His voice, I have turned out to be wrong. Not that it's easy to determine what is God's voice, but in some cases I'm almost sure.
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Anyway, I really don't want to offend anyone here, but the Bible is full of moronisms.
I agree that the Old Testament has lots of strange rules that I don't really understand. However, the old pact from God was renewed by Jesus when He came to earth. Mainly, of course, that we can now receive the forgiveness of sins by His death on the cross, but some of the rules were also changed. The clearest example is probably the mountain preach (or whatever it's called in English; it's Matthew 5-7), for example:
"You have heard that it was said, 'eye for eye and tooth for tooth' (referring to, among others, Exodus 21:24). But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39)
And, Bizud, I join Dargon in appreciating that you bother to think about these things and question them. I've met so many people who say that "Christianity is bad" or something similar, but who don't want to discuss anything.
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Bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 25, 2002 03:54 PM |
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Edited By: Bizud on 25 Dec 2002
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And thank you, Dargon and Zune, and anyone else who has been patient with me. I've been a little more confrontational than I'd have liked during this discussion.
Dargon, I think you and I would agree on more than we know. I don't think bestiality is morally okay, either. I mean, besides the fact that the animal cannot possibly be a consenting partner, it's...it's...well...gross!
Your definition of hell is one that I have heard before, and, again, it seems more, well, reasonable, to me...I mean, I'm sure it would be horrid for you, but, since that's what I've been believing would happen anyway all my life, I'm somewhat desensitized, y'know?
And, who knows. Two years ago I was a die-hard atheist. It is now my firm belief that there is such a thing as a soul, and that there may well be an afterlife, so who knows where I'll be in two more years.
Regarding evolution, those are all excellent points you made. True, evolutionary theory cannot account for the origins of life itself. There are several theories. Now, this part of my knowledge is a bit rusty, but I think the dominant one goes like this. Under certain conditions, when a certain kind of "primordial soup" is struck by an electrical discharge, some of the molecules begin to interact differently, forming primitive proteins, perhaps millions of years later eo evolve into single-celled organisms.
Struck by thunder? Hey, now, that sounds like it could be argued to be "the hand of God" or something! Perhaps God did create life on earth! And, the only problem I've had with people arguing against evolution is that some christians (not all) argue that the earth is only 6000 years old. Well, that just can't be, unless dinosaurs never really existed, so God must have planted all those fossils to fool us. Personally, I have a difficult time believing that the God that you describe would do anything to fool us.
Regarding homosexuality, well, I have to disagree on some points. I have a friend who is gay, and he didn't come out of the closet until he was 19, but I know other people who took years and years to muster the courage. Society still doesn't treat homosexuals as well as it could. Kids get beaten up in high school and called "fags." I can completely understand someone's unwillingness to come out of the closet, especially since they don't want to lose the love and support of their family. I knew one girl who finally did come out of the closet, and as far as I know, her parents never had anything to do with her afterwards. It completely destroyed her, and though I haven't seen her in some years, the last time I did, she was a broken shell of a human being.
Now, regarding the definition of a "disorder." You're, well, kinda right, in some ways. The definition of a disorder has always been somewhat political. If we lived in a society where people taller than 6 feet were ostracized, we might refer to it as "tallness disorder" (well, probably not, they'd find some latin name for it ). Now, one isn't really "allowed" to speak of homosexuality in terms of it being a disorder, and I don't really believe that, but the definition of disorder has become so blurry that it could potentially be used to define any "undesirable" social characteristic.
Anyway, Dargon, Zune, and whoever else, you do a good job of explaining your opinions, and thanks again for putting up with me. Merry Christmas, everybody!
--EDIT--
P.S. It's not that people evolved from apes. Rather, people and apes evolved from a common ancestor, just in different ways. For example, the gorilla is a lot bigger and stronger than most monkeys, etc. And, quick fact: Human and Chimpanzee DNA is 99% identical.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 25, 2002 05:07 PM |
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“the founder of your religion wrote books where he appealed for the burning of synagogues”
Lews minor point…you are only off by about 1500 years…the founders of Christianity were Jesus and his disciples.
My bad, of course I meant the founder of your church, Martin Luther. The founder of your religion, Jesus, according to the bible did not write any books, but also did some ugly agitation against those Jews that did not decide to follow him, which is all those that are now called Jews. He called them "followers of Satan", and also used the expression "synagogues of Satan" in this context. One could say that Jesus were the fore-fore-forefather of the holocaust, but I think this is very unlikely: If Jesus really has existed, he most probably was a Jewish ethnocentrist who´d rather have sticked a finger in his eye than said such things.
And I wonder why you have dodged around instead of refering to the historic facts on the major role of the churches in oppressing Jewish rights and creating an atmosphere towards Jews that made the holocaust possible.
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Ah…yes he does. Small ego…hmmm if you say so.
Why would a being that is not totally moronic and egotistic want lower creatures grovel before it and sing worship songs? Maybe you have a better explanation than the small ego?
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God did NOT create sinners. He created people who have free will.
I told you before, an all-knowing god and free human will together create a logical fallacy. All-knowingness implies determinism, and determinism precules free will.
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He desires a relationship and without free will no relationship is possible.
How do you know what your almighty god desires? Isn´t he so far above all of us that we cannot understand his motives?
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that has been a very strong and respected philosophical argument
No, it´s a ridiculously weak argument that´s easily refuted. With the same argument people have created their wind and son gods, with the same kind of ignorantic arrogance the church has burned people who casted dount on the earth´s being a globe. The fact that human brain cannot answer all question is no evidence for a god-like being, but even if there is a god-like being (which I do consider possible), this is certainly not the archaic and anthropocentric biblic god.
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LOL…I guess that is why the early church was persecuted constantly and Jesus and all his disciples were summarily sentenced to death…their crime…
Yes, until they became Rome´s state religion and gave back that violence and intolerance by a thousandfold.
We have moments of moral clarity but for the most part the only truly “good” people came from religious traditions (Jesus, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, etc).
I´d like to continue your list: Khomeni, Mussolini, Hitler, Bin Laden, etc ...
Regarding Mother Theresa, yeah, she was really great at getting publicity.
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Bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 25, 2002 05:48 PM |
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Hmm, I appear to have switched sides!
First of all, I find it somewhat shocking that you would put Ghandi and Jesus in the same category as Hitler and Khomeni. Even if you're just trying to prove a point, there are better ways.
Right. First of all, in my opinion, Bin Laden and Khomeni were/are simply murderers using relegion as an excuse to get their rocks off.
Hitler and Mussolini weren't religious at all. They were dictators who used religion as a means of procuring public support (well, Hitler genuinely believed he was helping Germany, whereas Mussolini was just a power-hungry madman). In any case, anyone who's even read the bible can understand the big bold letters "THOU SHALT NOT KILL."
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Regarding Mother Theresa, yeah, she was really great at getting publicity.
You don't know what you're talking about. Did you know her personally? Please explain where you get this insight into her personality and motives.
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How do you know what your almighty god desires? Isn´t he so far above all of us that we cannot understand his motives?
Now you're just being pedantic. He knows, because his God told him. You cannot in any way dispute this, as you are not him, and neither can I.
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 25, 2002 05:55 PM |
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And,
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I told you before, an all-knowing god and free human will together create a logical fallacy. All-knowingness implies determinism, and determinism precules free will.
How about, NO? Is it not possible he could know what people are going to do without controlling them? I know that my brother is going to get here in about 5 minutes, but that doesn't mean I'm his puppeteer.
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted December 26, 2002 07:26 PM |
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Two, in modern society…there is rarely any more closet homosexuals.
Just out of curiosity, how in the world did you come to that conclusion?
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Blitzhund
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 27, 2002 02:04 PM |
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Perhaps there is no God(s)
I've been following this conversation from the 30,000 ft level and feel that I might as well throw in what I have to say as well.
Perhaps the Bible's stories aren't right?
Many of you have spent a good deal of time attacking the bible, describing it's stories and history as pure fallacies (Noah and the Flood, Creation, Sodom & Gomorrah). I think that you are looking too much at the minutae and detail and too little at the bigger picture. The bible is a book that by and large has been passed down through the ages for over 4,500 years -maybe more. When these stories were originally told, orally passed from father to son, man did not have the ability to understand science and nature as we do today, so they told the stories in the way that they knew how. A great flood in the Middle East where tribes gathered their flocks, domestic animals, and others become the flood of Noah, Evolution as seen through ancient man's eyes become Adam and Eve. Cataclysmic destruction of cities became God's wrath upon Sodom and Gomorrah. These stories were passed through literally 100's of generations before being written.
This is not to say that God's hand was not at work, but rather to say that the bible (certainly the Old Testament) was an interpretation of the Lord's doings upon this planet. Imagine how mankind, 4,500 years from now, will perceive our beliefs and books? Surely it will be similar.
Don't take the bible in the Old Testament so literal -read it for the history of a people and see the work of God through their eyes. Understand that these stories were told in a fashion that could easily be remembered and handed down by story tellers.
Perhaps people have killed in the name of God and Jesus?
No, this is simply not correct. People have killed throughout the ages. Sadly, man has always committed grevious acts of violence against man since the dawn of time. But do not say that they have done this in the name of God. Those that have killed in this way have done so because of Religion led by men. The crusades was man's idea and delivered by man. The men in Al Queda that carry out terrorist attacks are doing so because a man tells them to do this -Not Allah (god). In other words if one follows the teachings of Christ, he is tolerant and loving -if one follows religion he does things that another man tells him to do.
Perhaps there isn't a God, a heaven, a hell?
Perhaps you are right. Perhaps when we die, we are worm food. But for myself, I choose to believe in the teachings of Christ and God. I feel that it is a dismal future to believe there is nothing after death. If anything, maybe heaven is the bliss of knowing that, right as you die, you know in your heart that you have done good things and left the world a better place. Perhaps hell is just inky darkness and a seperation from the above revelation. If you choose to believe in man and man alone, then that is your business -but do not go and call me simple because I believe in something else.
I don't plan on slinging any mud or responding to insults.
Peace to all of you.
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