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| Thread: Heroes 4 Breaks its own rules!!???? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted January 15, 2003 09:26 PM |
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Heroes 4 Breaks its own rules!!????
Morale Consistant?? NOT!
I have been told that Morale goes before speed. So why is it that this rule only apply when it feel like it and it can change randomly? I had a Hero with 10 speed attack another hero with 8 speed BUT the hero with 8 speed had higher morale so the 8 speed hero got to go first and retreats etc. So I learn from this in next game, I have every unit and heroes with higher morale over all then any unit in my opponents army. However, there -2 morale unit gets to go before my 0 morale units? How is this possible? Makes it kinda hard to play this game if the basic rules of the game are not consistant. Right?
Retreating to closest Town??? Not!
When retreating a hero from a battle they show up in the closest owned town.. Right? IN a recent game my opponent took my 2nd town. Next turn I could have taken it back but I instead leave it in my opponents possesion. SO that when I attacked him if he tryed to retreat he would be right there for me to get him again, seemed like a perfect plan. BUT once again the game breaks its own rules. When he retreats, he goes all the way home safe and sound when he is only 4 hexes from a town he owns????
Now obviously the players I wa playing did nothing wrong and I am not condemning them at all. But it is quite frustrating to spend hours on a game working a strategy and then have all the rules change. Kinda like shooting a gun and the bullet supposed to go out the barrel the other way and this time it desides to come outta the back of the gun, for no logical reason.???
Anyways, does anyone know what can account for these obvious glitches and bugs? Or are they just the incompetants of 3do once again.
Just seems silly to play this game when it boils down to a flip of coin at end as to weather or not the game will do as it says it will or not.
Jinxer
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted January 15, 2003 09:58 PM |
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Quote:
will do as it says it will or not.
I just ignore most of what it says and i'm happy ..cause really,its mumbojumbo..whateverewhatever
so many micro-bugs(like dwarf changing its stats in middle of fight-all he did was walk..),that its not worth studying too deep..
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Conan_dw
Hired Hero
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posted January 15, 2003 10:39 PM |
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hm, the moral thing isnt as simple...the moralstat gives u a CHANCE of getting morale (10% per point i think). IF the morale comes, THEN it counts before speed, but a higher moral stat is not a safe parameter for this.
to the town: the town has to be more then 10 tiles away from hero, otherwise he couldnt retreat. if he has more than one town, than he will retraet to the next one.
hope i could help u.
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted January 15, 2003 10:43 PM |
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Jinxer, -2 Morale means it is 20% chance for morale penalty to happen (dark bird in the battlefield). Morale penalty makes your heroes and creatures (in other words, the stack who got the penalty) act last in the given round (if more than one stack got the morale penalty the speed determines the waiting order). +3 Morale means that it is 30% chance for morale bonus to occur, if and when morale bonus happens it is then when the creatures move first in addition to the 25% increase for the round to the creatures attack. Only Morale Bonus and Morale Penalty will change the movement order, not the Morale Number that just shows how likely it is for Morale Penalty or Morale Bonus to occur.
Morale/Speed system works like it should.
About that town retreating, if the enemy is near the town, you can't retreat there. This is because the retreated heroes and creatures flee to the front of the town instead to inside. Another reason is that your path may be completely blocked, but I'm not so sure about the latter.
Seems that Conan beated me in replying (4 mins earlier). Well, hopefully my post clarified some things.
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted January 15, 2003 10:51 PM |
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Edited By: Laelth on 15 Jan 2003
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Unless I'm mistaken, the "retreat" issue is could also be explained by the fact that players can control which town they retreat to by making sure that all 14 town slots (both inside and outside) are filled (perhaps with only 1 troop in each slot) in towns they don't want to retreat to. A player can only retreat to a town with open slots, or at least this was the case in 2.0. Maybe this "bug," if it is a bug, was fixed in 2.2. I haven't tried this recently.
I honestly didn't know about the 4 hex rule. learn something new every day ...
-Laelth
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted January 15, 2003 11:26 PM |
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Hmm guess I dont understand still. If a bad morale penalty lowers your morale from 0 to -4 then it lets higher morale go first.....whats the differnce? If you start the battle with -4 or if you get bad morale that takes you to -4 same difference right?
Jinxer
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted January 15, 2003 11:34 PM |
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Morale Penalty doesn't lower your morale. Your morale may get lower in the battle because of these two reasons: You have creatures with Sorrow or you are losing badly. If you start winning after losing, your Morale will return to the normal (Maximum is the morale with which you started the battle).
Positive Morale increases the creatures attack by 25% lasting whole round.
Negative Morale decreases the creatures attack by 20% lasting whole round.
Creatures get morale bonus or morale penalty only at the start of the round (so if you wonder when the next round in battle is going to happen, morale bonus is a sure sign of it). Thus, effect of Mirth or Sorrow are not immediate.
Morale also has great influence in the movement order.
Creatures who have got good morale act first (from the fastest to the slowest in the case more than one creature got the morale bonus).
Creatures with no morale bonus or penalty act then (from the fastest to the slowest moving creatures).
Creatures with morale penalty act last (from the fastest to the slowest in the case more than one creature got the morale penalty).
When creatures wait order is vice versa from the above:
Creatures with morale penalty act first (from the slowest to the fastest in the case more than one creature got the morale penalty).
Creatures with no morale bonus or penalty act then (from the slowest to the fastest moving creatures).
-4 Morale is a Negative Morale that may occur Morale Penalty at the start of the round. +3 Morale is a Positive Morale that may occur Morale Bonus at the start of the round.
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Psychobabble
Known Hero
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posted January 15, 2003 11:54 PM |
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Quote:
Retreating to closest Town??? Not!
...When he retreats, he goes all the way home safe and sound when he is only 4 hexes from a town he owns????
There is a simple explanation for this, you cannot retreat to a town if it is too close. As a test, if you own only one town attempt to retreat to it from about 5 spaces away. It will tell you that it is too close. Thus if you try to retreat to a very close town when you own another then you will end up at the further away town.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted January 16, 2003 12:16 AM |
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Thunder -- Is it possible for a unit with -4 morale when entering a battle to get a positive/good morale boost??
Heres my point. My opponent had 4 stacks of units every stack had -4 morale when entering battle. And my heroes had 0 morale and my creatures all had +5 morale. So assumeing that a -4 unit can NEVER get a good morale boost, then there should not be any condition that would let that -4 unit go before the Higher moraled unit correct?
Ofcourse if the -4 morale unit can get a positive / good morale boost then that changes everything.
Jinxer
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valkyrica
Supreme Hero
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posted January 16, 2003 12:26 AM |
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jinxer u just don't get it now do you ? let's see if u understand me ..., u say your opponent had troops with -4 morale and u had heroes with 0 and troops with +5
if there is no morale boost or penalty (golden bird/black bird) the creatures go by speed, and to explain it just so that you can understand, if your troops didn't get morale boost(doesn't matter that u have +5) and his didn't get morale penalty(bad morale->black bird) speed dictates the order in which the units move
so more than likely his units had higher speed than yours and/or he had a tactician/artifact, doesn't matter, the point is if he has -9 morale and 11 speed and u have +9 morale and 10 speed and if neither of you guys gets a morale bonus/penalty he still moves first
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I'm Guybrush Threepwood, mighty pirate 
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted January 16, 2003 12:45 AM |
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ahhh hmmm.. well then sounds like it is just like Heores 3 it boils down to a flip of a coin as to who wins that particular battle.
Ohh well. Here I was being silly thinking there was a way to strate4gically plan your battle out, and when all along it is outta my hands. Depends on the mood of the computer that day. haha
Thanks for all the replys to clarify these issues. =)
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Conan_dw
Hired Hero
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posted January 16, 2003 02:48 PM |
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not only the mood of the pc, but u are right, its only a chance, this makes planing the battle really difficult. a high morale stat gives u a chance to get the moral boost, but u couldnt plan with this.
and the moral thing is more difficult as postet here, IF a stack gets a boost, it makes its turn in the "old" turn, that means, that if a stack of the enemy has retaliatet last turn, it couldnt retaliate against the moral boosted stack of ur army. this only works, if ur boosted stack doesnt wait.
a VERY mighty thing i think!
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted January 16, 2003 03:22 PM |
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No, Morale Bonus or Penalty happens at the start of the round. The thing why the creatures won't retaliate to the morale sometimes is because it will take a whole battle round since they last retaliated for them to be able to retaliate again.
For example, there are Black Dragons as Red and Phoenixes as Blue.
1st round: Phoenixes get Morale Penalty, Black Dragons wait and then Phoenixes attack Black Dragons and Black Dragons retaliate. Then Black Dragons attack and Phoenixes retaliate.
2nd round: Phoenixes get Morale Bonus (Hero cast a Mirth on them during the last round) and attack Black Dragons without retalition (it hasn't been full round since the Blacks last retaliated), then Black Dragons attack Phoenixes without retalition (notice that Black Dragons waited in the first round but not on the current).
3rd round: Phoenixes attack Black Dragons (they got no Morale Bonus or Morale Penalty) and Black Dragons retaliate (has been more than a full round as the Phoenixes got Morale Bonus last turn) Black Dragons attack Phoenixes and they retaliate (has been a full round since they last retaliated)
Uh, it is kinda hard to explain but if you understand the example above, you understand how the Morale, Retalition and Movement Order works. And check my reply above how the movement order goes.
And yes, I definately like how the Morale and Luck are in Heroes 4. With +10 Morale you will always get Morale Bonus at the start of the round, with -10 you will always get Morale Penalty, so it isn't so much about the luck as it might seem in the first look. And if you have GM Leadership, you can be almost certain that some of your troops get Morale Bonus at the start of the round. Beats HoMM 3 system.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted January 16, 2003 04:32 PM |
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and dont forget
the higher the morale, the increased damage you do. (in turn, low morale will reduce your damage.
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Psychobabble
Known Hero
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posted January 16, 2003 11:03 PM |
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Quote:
the higher the morale, the increased damage you do. (in turn, low morale will reduce your damage.
Is that still true in Heroes IV? I've never noticed it, but then again I haven't been looking.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted January 17, 2003 01:41 AM |
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morale and luck in homm4
as it says in the rulebook:
Luck modifies how much damage your units recieve.
Morale modifies how much damage your units deliver.
eg. If you cast a bad luck spell on your opponent creature (-10 luck on stack) it actually reduces their defence by about 25% when you attack, and thats including spell damage.
I always have luck cast on my hero so that his defense rating is higher; if you can give him +10 luck, you should be recieving about 25% less damage.
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japjer
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 18, 2003 01:04 PM |
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i thought it was more than 25%, since fortune is a lvl 2 spell, it would make more sense for it to be higher since spiritual armor and stone skin have the same effect, and i don't think the extra protection against DD spells give it an advantage, it's also vulnerable to misfortune.
ah well, you can always summon leprechauns..
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted January 18, 2003 04:21 PM |
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who wrote more on this thread is right, except jinxer who's confused. 
all the best
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted January 18, 2003 04:56 PM |
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Quote:
as it says in the rulebook:
Luck modifies how much damage your units recieve.
Morale modifies how much damage your units deliver.
It only works when the ability kicks in. Morale is decided at the start of each round and last to the beginning of the next round.
Luck seems to be decided each time damage is applied (though I think it doesn't work on every spell).
In the case of Luck you just have three possible damage values:
+50 damage (bad luck)
No modifier (Luck doesn't affect this damage)
-33% damage (good luck)
A negative Luck value will give either bad Luck or No modifier, a positive Luck value will give either good Luck or no modifier. -10 = Always bad luck. 0 = Luck doesn't affect the damage, and +10 = Always Good luck.
Luck doesn't work in 21 steps in between -10 and +10. You just have three possible damage outcomes due to Luck.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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japjer
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 18, 2003 06:54 PM |
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