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| Thread: The Best Rules for Random Maps |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted June 21, 2001 12:51 AM |
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The Best Rules for Random Maps
Here are some of the best rules for a good random map:
1. No sneak attacks. You have to stay outside the opponents castle for a week before attacking. This is to prevent unfair advantage of finding your opponents town first, because it is pure luck.
2. No useage of outside dwellings. Its completely unfair.
3. No attacking racial enemies. If you got titans, leave those black dragons alone. If they are the last 2 standing then the player with the least hitpoints left must flee.
4. No hit and run. You canīt hit on someone during the game and then not follow up after the game. That can really hurt someones feelings. I remember one game when I was playing this girl called "Susie Sweetheart" and she hit on me in the game but then never answered my mails. SO NO HIT AND RUN
5. No build of town special building. Thats so unfair if somoene gets a mana vortex or something similar, completely unbalances the game.
6. No playing like a dork. You have to play with style. No leaving pieces of cheese to defend a mine or a town you just took.
7. No win. Only I may win. You must lose. If you dont agree to that rule I will not play you. Without that rule the game is very unbalanced. Yuo donīt like the rule? Sure, I will play and win, se how you like it =))
These are just a few of the rules that are A MUST for playing ANY type of heroes game, especially R a n d o m. There are at least 104 more that I always use, but rule number 8 is "You have to figure the other rules out by yourself" so I wont bring them up.
I hope we can play some time.
P.S. No 7 is an important rule, for it is the essence of what rule making is all about.. "No 4th level" = "Only I may win (I suck at using 4th level spells)". "No log" = "Only I may win(My fav hero doesnīt have log)".
"I like rules" = "I need to make the rules or else I might lose, and I canīt lose because Im so good."
Now go play the game as it was intended to be played. I can make a bunch of rules so that I will win using the tactics that Iīm good at, but I wont. If you do that you can just as well use rule number 7. It is the same, just extrapolated.
D.S.
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I am the hope of the universe... I am the answer to all living things that cry out for peace... I am protector of the innocent... I am the light in the darkness... I am truth.
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 21, 2001 02:25 AM |
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While your sarcasm becomes you beautifully, some rules ARE necessary for random maps. 6000 veterans can disagree with me all they like, but if you want a fair game on a random map, you have to implement them
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 21, 2001 06:40 AM |
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I want some of what you have been smoking.
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BlankPage
Hired Hero
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posted June 21, 2001 09:24 AM |
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Ha-ha-ha
This was one of the best posts here ever!
You have caught the rule makers!
Lets play the game as is. I have accepted some rules sometimes, but I prefer not having additional rules. They just ruin the diversity of the game, but hey that`s why rules are made.
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 21, 2001 09:48 AM |
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For blankpage...
My wood is blocked by lots of cyclops kings and you find an unguarded box on day 3, I ask for a restart and offer for you to look at the map so you know I'm not lying ( all the while not knowing u got a free box). What would your reply be?
Just curious
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted June 21, 2001 03:28 PM |
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For Rychee
Do you confuse rules with fairness and honour? I say NO DAMN rules at the start of the game, but to be fair, I would graciously allow a restart (lol). Of course I could be a nasty and say get stuffed but then you wouldn't want to play me again and 1 measly moment would cost me a hell of a lot more than a potential win.
I'd say that restarts are allowed, the circumstances in which they are allowed though would be discussed. Just like the conditions for a reload. But this is not a rule. I would not dictate that what I allow for you, you also allow for me, as this is a matter of personal taste and honour. How can you place 'laws' upon something that is random? If you do NOT want unpredictability, then DON'T play a random map.
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 21, 2001 05:07 PM |
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Shae you green haired demoness
I want to play randoms,but I cant do anything about the fact that the generator sux. The conditions I ask for at the start of a random map are nothing to do with taste or honour, they are to do with compensating for the generator to create a reasonably fair map. I do not hide behind these rules, hell I'll play anyone without rules, its just more fun for it to be fair for everyone involved
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JTL
Hired Hero
King of Tossers
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posted June 21, 2001 06:11 PM |
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Being the consumate random map player I thought I would reply here with a non-sarcastic list of 'rules' as the topic title intended. But as rychen is trying to say, rules are simply implemented to make the game more fair/fun (especially the fun part):
KoR rules: No conflux to start, no cartographer and meet by day 5 (or some think day 7)restart, if blocked in restart (which I agree with shae, not really a rule..just more of an obvious courtesy)
Add onto that: No diplomacy, because all monsters are set to hostile on random maps diplomacy becomes a game busting skill. Only if you have diplo will creatures join you...because random monsters are often so strong, diplo can build an army that would take 10 months to 'make' in just a week.
(oh and best setup of random maps: L or XL no under, CPU (if you like), no water, strong monsters 130-160% diff)
If you like 'fair' randoms here is a partial list of players who are good and understand there need to be some constraints to make the map fair (AND FUN!!!):
Lichking Rychenrolller
MidnightWraith Tim554
Tvgenie Greystole
Frank KumaNoTsume
EdwardTheThird LadyGoldie
Lord Bobby Ohms Tyris123
Toh_zx9
All of these players listed are good players..who seem to enjoy the game more than saying things like "I'm a captain trying to make colonel, so don't report for a week" (and I'm sure I've missed someone, sorry)
As always, feel free to disagree
JTL
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Wow...it says I could use BB code here..but not HTML... I got no clue what that means
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 21, 2001 09:13 PM |
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This was supposed to have been posted last night but damn comp disconnected before i submitted.
A few things that have happened on random maps and what we did.
Played Shae_Trielle on random map expert diff, normal monsters. My ore mine was guarded (blocked actually) by lots of ogre magi. She offered to restart and I said no - and overcame the problem (view earth allowed me to find an alternative source of ore for the short run).
Played Rychen on 4 randoms - two of them had us too close for comfort so we restarted.
Played Mocara and Lichking on random - Mocara got ddoor scroll very early on - he didn't use it. This is not too uncommon a situation - you just don't use those scrolls.
Played Mocara on another random map - I started with a 10th level hero - we discontinued the game.
Played Mocara on yet another random. He choose Conflux and Ciele and managed to beat me in 4 days thus ending my "never been beaten as Fortress on random" claim. I called him a prick bass-tard and cried myself to sleep that night.
Played joetheloser way back and i got angelwings early on week 2 (i managed to take an archdevil structure in week 1 and was able to then kill the horde of dendroids guarding the wings) realized this wasn't "fair" so we didn't count the game (and this game marked the beginning of my dislike of relics and stat boosting artifacts).
Played Frank on random - I attacked a horde of zombies with one sprite - after REALLY long battle was going to win when accidently clicked mouse button and sent sprite only one space away and got killed. Frank alowed me to reload. Ok this doesn't have anything to do with random map conditions but I wanted to give him credit for both his patience for my battle and for understanding that inadvertant mouse clicks happen.
The point is (I have one) that each map comes up with certain situations that have to be judged right there. Personally I don't like rules but would be glad if opp agreed not to use any weakly guarded superscrolls (or any stat boosting artifacts).
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maxym
Known Hero
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posted June 21, 2001 09:20 PM |
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Amen ;)
I would also add no free relics and 5th level scrolls to that list of rules.
And i always wanted to have grail on my maps but it seems to be excluded by most players. I was thinking alowing non-necro players to use the grail since necro is such an advantage on large maps. And necro players can still dig for the grail to deny it to their opponents, they just can't use it.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted June 21, 2001 09:27 PM |
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Yeah youīre right about alot of stuff
Youīre very kind to do that. I agree with most of the rules you posted here except one.
Diplomacy.
It should be a game breaker. After all.. shouldnīt we all learn that words are better than violence? Maybe thatīs what heroes is all about, and you take it away like that.. itīs almost evil.
And nothing is more fun than having 48 cyclops kings join you, and you feel sure to win, but then the opponent shows up with 50 champions =) I like em EPIC! =D
And just to make sure, I will say it again:
Diplomacy SHOULD be all-powerful for WORDS and COMMUNICATION is always BETTER than VIOLENCE. 
Itīs like in real life. Mr A and Mr B go to the store.
Mr A starts fighting the wandering employees to get the food treasure.. Mr B talks to them and buys food.
Mr A goes to jail.. Mr B has a nice dinner at home =)
You see, diplomacy is a game breaker in Real Life as it is in heores. Everything is as it should be.
I agree on the other rules. I use them myself alot. I wrote the post because I read some ridiculous posts on another board about a person that wanted basically only towns and mines on his map.. that almost made me cry for him. Some people need control, and the uncertain scares them.. They take it to heroes, disguise it with bad arguments, and gather up followers. Mocara is best at telling you how that works.
I know Iīm fighting a losing battle here. The ones that agree with me already did, and the ones that disagree will not change. I am only lucky that I play the way I do.
Quote:
Being the consumate random map player I thought I would reply here with a non-sarcastic list of 'rules' as the topic title intended. But as rychen is trying to say, rules are simply implemented to make the game more fair/fun (especially the fun part):
KoR rules: No conflux to start, no cartographer and meet by day 5 (or some think day 7)restart, if blocked in restart (which I agree with shae, not really a rule..just more of an obvious courtesy)
Add onto that: No diplomacy, because all monsters are set to hostile on random maps diplomacy becomes a game busting skill. Only if you have diplo will creatures join you...because random monsters are often so strong, diplo can build an army that would take 10 months to 'make' in just a week.
(oh and best setup of random maps: L or XL no under, CPU (if you like), no water, strong monsters 130-160% diff)
If you like 'fair' randoms here is a partial list of players who are good and understand there need to be some constraints to make the map fair (AND FUN!!!):
Lichking Rychenrolller
MidnightWraith Tim554
Tvgenie Greystole
Frank KumaNoTsume
EdwardTheThird LadyGoldie
Lord Bobby Ohms Tyris123
Toh_zx9
All of these players listed are good players..who seem to enjoy the game more than saying things like "I'm a captain trying to make colonel, so don't report for a week" (and I'm sure I've missed someone, sorry)
As always, feel free to disagree
JTL
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 21, 2001 09:37 PM |
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Quote:
Add onto that: No diplomacy, because all monsters are set to hostile on random maps diplomacy becomes a game busting skill. Only if you have diplo will creatures join you...because random monsters are often so strong, diplo can build an army that would take 10 months to 'make' in just a week.
(oh and best setup of random maps: L or XL no under, CPU (if you like), no water, strong monsters 130-160% diff)
The hostility setting of monsters is determined primarily by the monster strength. On strong monsters more of them are set to hostile than normal monsters - and they do join less often than those on normal settings (although because of their strength it's worth it).
I disagree a little with your setup and I posted my preferences (and reasons) on some other post in this community, but here's a brief commentary on your choices.
When you choose strong monsters you increase the likelihood of strong arts, superscrolls, and heavy-duty pandoras boxes. Additionally, the larger the map the more likely you are to get the above items as well as Dragon Utopias, Cartographers, and other locations. Therefore I now like normal monsters (and weak monsters if anyone would ever play it - you don't have to worry about arts anymore).
I love comp players - the more the merrier - and it's best if you choose what they are so as to minimize the chance of an opp winning because three of the comps were the same as his castle.
Finally the best size for both time and encounter situations are usually medium two level, large 1 level, or large 2 level islands.
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BlankPage
Hired Hero
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posted June 22, 2001 02:16 AM |
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rychenroller
As you asked me direectly: My answere would by "YES, lets start again" and I wouldn`t need to check the save, but that`s because I am an honorable guy. AND; I would support a person saying: No we have started the game, lets finnish it!
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JTL
Hired Hero
King of Tossers
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posted June 22, 2001 02:18 AM |
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To bjorn:
Yeah I agree diplo is necessary in life :-) And as for it on random maps, that is simply my preference. Games are very fun if both players get diplo...and very much a let down when one player is offered it and the other is not (been on both sides of that coin...and didn't like it either way). So sure, I'll play diplo on occasion it's fun to have "super-battles" but diplo is sort of a 'crutch', requires little skill to master and can..as I said before...ruin/break good games. I know calling diplo a crutch will annoy many...but sorry just the way I feel.
To Re-animator:
Regarding diplo, I think we had this discussion once before but in randoms no matter how you set the monsters they will not join without diplo. The only exception to that is if it is 'the week of the XXXX' those new 'XXXX' creatures will join, they are neutrals.
Regarding map setup. I've read you thoughts on it before, but I'm afraid I have to disagree with one part. You say that lvl5 scrolls are more prevelant in strong monster maps, that is not the case....simply the guards of that scroll are harder. I've played maps where the settings were 'weak' or 'normal' and things like 'horde of gargoyles' will be guarding a level 4/5 scroll (or in the case of weak I've gotten armageddon and T.P. on a loose scroll w/o guards)...on 'strong' monsters the same scrolls would be guarded by something like "lots of efreets" or something comparable...so at least you have to work for it :-) And I haven't noticed less utopia/relics on weak/normal maps...but then again I only have a sample size of ~500 :-)
That's all for now. Enjoy!
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Wow...it says I could use BB code here..but not HTML... I got no clue what that means
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 22, 2001 09:15 PM |
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Quote:
To Re-animator:
Regarding diplo, I think we had this discussion once before but in randoms no matter how you set the monsters they will not join without diplo. The only exception to that is if it is 'the week of the XXXX' those new 'XXXX' creatures will join, they are neutrals.
Regarding map setup. I've read you thoughts on it before, but I'm afraid I have to disagree with one part. You say that lvl5 scrolls are more prevelant in strong monster maps, that is not the case....simply the guards of that scroll are harder. I've played maps where the settings were 'weak' or 'normal' and things like 'horde of gargoyles' will be guarding a level 4/5 scroll (or in the case of weak I've gotten armageddon and T.P. on a loose scroll w/o guards)...on 'strong' monsters the same scrolls would be guarded by something like "lots of efreets" or something comparable...so at least you have to work for it :-) And I haven't noticed less utopia/relics on weak/normal maps...but then again I only have a sample size of ~500 :-)
That's all for now. Enjoy!
Well see joe there's your problem, your sample size was too small (kidding).
Like you I've played tons of randoms (in fact almost exclusively since AB). I rechecked a few things and on random maps, regardless of the strength setting, monsters are set to hostile (as was said above). While I can't recall them ever joining me without diplomacy I can't say for sure that they never join without it (interestingly enough I once had a hero with expert diplomacy and 6 black knights have 11 black knights offer to join me - i checked later and found they were set to hostile).
Regarding the amount and strength of artifacts/scrolls - that IS a function of monster strength and map size. A medium map with normal monsters will generally have less powerful arts/scrolls than a medium map with strong monsters. But as you increase the map size and/or levels (total land mass actually) you increase the likelihood of encountering powerful arts (even with weak monsters), because the generator doesn't put duplicate arts on the map - therefore it "runs out" of lower level arts. With scrolls, I still find that the lvl 4/5 ones are less prevalent with lower monster strengths.
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JTL
Hired Hero
King of Tossers
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posted June 22, 2001 10:35 PM |
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To Re-animator:
We just have our own little discussion group going here. I made a mistake in reading you post...I thought you were saying monster strength increases the amount of relics etc. that is clearly not true (and you didn't say it anyway)...but you are indeed right...increasing map size does increase the amount of stuff on the map and therefore more chances for relics...
But..there is a distinction that needs to be made there...If I understand your arguement which is:
"you increase the likelihood of encountering powerful arts (even with weak monsters), because the generator doesn't put duplicate arts on the map - therefore it "runs out" of lower level arts." (in regard to smaller maps vs. larger maps)
There are two possiblities here:
1). The generator 1st places low level arts and then works it's way up to the higher level arts as long as there is room.
2). The likelihood of an artifact being on any map (or scroll for that matter) is a constant (say 1 relic/300 hexes) so if you increase the map size you increase the overall numbers of relics/power scrolls or whatever, but the probability of a map having a relic on a large vs. small map is the same per area....
Not being a programer of the game...I really have no clue which is how it works...but:
In situation #1: you would rarely if ever see relics on smaller maps (which in my experience is not the case..you see them less often..but they do appear). And when they do appear, because monsters set at weak or normal the guards are p*ssies. (*=u of course...don't mean to say possies or passies)
This is a long post for a minor point...but I thought it was intellectually stimulating enough and quite frankly...I'm pretty curious to see what you might think, since I really don't know how it works
btw: yes, totally agree that I've never seen creatures join w/o diplo (other than those from 'week of XXX') whether or not they are all set to hostile and what that means is really a side issue...point is still DIPLO = bad
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Wow...it says I could use BB code here..but not HTML... I got no clue what that means
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 23, 2001 03:23 AM |
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I think (but can't really know) that the generator assigns a probability to each artifact it places on the map based on the monster strength. That is - if you have weak monsters set then maybe like 60% will be treasure arts, 25% minor, 10% major, and 5% relics (I'm making up the percentages here). Normal monsters would maybe be 45% treasure arts, 30% minor, 15% major, and 10% relic. And finally strong would go something like 30% treasure, 30% minor, 25% major, 15% relic. Again this is a total guess, but it seems to fit with what I encounter on the maps.
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Frank
Promising
Known Hero
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posted June 27, 2001 10:40 PM |
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No RuleZ
No RuleZ is fair. If you fear diplo, train a cleric instead of Daemer. If you fear utopias, do them first, find a way while your opponent is trying to join troops, use whatever you have gathered in utopias to grow stronger. Before a diplomat can become effective at impossible difficulty level you have a good 3 weeks to get something going for yourself. That`s more than enough. In the end of a game diplo is not enough to win. It sure is handy but there are other things to HOMM... :-)
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MidnightWraith
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 03, 2001 06:46 PM |
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i agree with blankpage's original comment
pretty funny post bjorn
though it can be also funny watching a bunch of compulsive obsessive gamers argue  until u get to about post 1256 on hit and run and u get bored and wanna read another post like this one.
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Kuma
Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
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posted July 06, 2001 10:00 AM |
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Have to agree wif Frank: "no rules" is the best rule.
But in my case: I usually play XL wif under, it might be wise to get rid of dip, necro and all scrolls. But, I'm more than willing to play 'no rules' any day
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.
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