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| Thread: Let the challenge last for more than 30 minutes (repost) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 22, 2001 09:29 PM |
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Let the challenge last for more than 30 minutes (repost)
valera from Heroes Community
Let the challenge last for more than 30 minutes Posted 7-13-2000 02:05
Hi everyone,
I know that I'm not the only one who enjoys playing the most in the first half an hour or so where I have to collect resources and really manage them to build up my castle, etc. But once I did, the game just loses much of my attention, it's just some skills and chasing others over the map. My point is that the game should have things that can be built gradually over a longer gameplay, so after 2 hours you would still have something completely new to aim for. You might consider this opinion unreasonable, but think about it: if some things required a certain structure in 4 different castles before they can be built for example, or the powerful creatures would only obey heroes with certain level. Things like that would extend the challenging part of the game for much longer. Another idea might be having more grail-type artifacts that can be found, somehow created or even obtained by destroying specific type of enemy castle. This is to make some structures much harder to build and better creatures more and more difficult to handle. Why would black dragon bother obeying to level 5 warlock anyway? What do you think?
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 22, 2001 09:30 PM |
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Sergo from Heroes Community
agree... Posted 7-13-2000 06:32
Hi, Valera!
I fully agree with you. First 30 minutes you build your castle. It's a good wish to build structures according more difficult rules. Say, when powerful hero stay in castle for turn then you can build some new feature according hero's skills... Say, Warlock of level 15 can build *Dragon Nest* in any castle etc...
Best regards,
Sergo
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 22, 2001 09:30 PM |
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valera from Heroes Community
Re: agree... Posted 7-13-2000 08:37
Yep, builder skill or something like that. Remember that post about building a fortress on the map with a certain skill, the same skill could be used for some buildings. Yes, high level hero required for building is good because he is the tamer of the creature. And those creatures with level requirement cannot be recruited to defend a town because they always need a leader of that certain level or higher, otherways they won't bother obeying or they may go berzerk on the battlefied 
So, other possible requirememnts:
* amount of towns owned
* amount of dwellings (internal or external) owned
* combined mage guild level in all towns
* certain artifacts
can't think of any more right now.
Good luck in battles,
Valera
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 22, 2001 09:31 PM |
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Kuba from Heroes Community
Re: Let the challenge last for more than 30 minutes Posted 7-15-2000 13:33
Im angree with you too.
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sheltem [guest] from Heroes Community
Good idea but... Posted 2-8-2001 14:44
Hi,
I like the idea but what if there are not enought towns or external dwellings on the map.But the high level creatures really should obey only a high level hero.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 22, 2001 09:32 PM |
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wizardboy from Heroes Community
keep the game going... Posted 2-9-2001 08:45
hey dudes!
that is a nice suggestion val and i think is really cool too just like the other guys who read it.
Here is some ideas to improvise:
* for higher lvl dwellings u have to recruit a hero that specialises in that particular creature.
* the hero is already in the dwelling and there can be multiple hero that specialises that creature
* the starting dwelling hero has no idea skill besides it's specialty
i don't know if u guys like this idea but i think is ok but there is some leaks in it too...
anyway have fun guys and let the interest of heroes be kept all the way to the end of the game not just the 30 min.
wizardboy
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 22, 2001 09:33 PM |
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sikmar from Heroes Community
The value of time again Posted 2-13-2001 15:31
Greetings, Valera and the other heroes:
I don't remember it well, but I think I posted something related to this idea in the creature experience thread. I think we all agree the game becomes mechanical when you've played for a long time. You can always win or loose, depending on the balancing of the map, but there's a moment when the resource collecting and the building order lose their meaning.
I think that many improvements can be made only considering the town building (I've also read your good ideas about builder heros and creature tamers). Maybe your land could pass through different states depending on its size. When you control almost 3 towns DURING certain amount of weeks you call it a "county". If you manage to conquer and keep, for instance, more than 6 towns during a month, your county is improved to an "kingdom", and if you possess more than 10 towns during almost a month, your vast kingdom will be an "empire".
The idea is that superior land states allow different structures to be built. When you reach the kingdom level, an additional building screen offers you new possibilities, and the same happens when you command an empire. The month limit of possession treats to grant that you doesn't simply conquer a bunch of towns in a particular day to lose it rapidly in the same week. If you have an empire, it means you have defended your territory roughly during almost a month.
I would also give more importance to the external dwelling system. The number of dwellings from some type should allow you not only to recruit more creatures. Building additional dwellings inside the town? Making the recruiting cheaper?
Finally, the election of your capitol must be a more strategic question. After some weeks of possession, the capitol could be upgraded to an Imperial Capitol, maybe offering high level heroes to hire.
Just a question. Are you still sending this wishes to the 3D0 team? Other sites have already closed their wishes submission. Are 3DO still listening to you?
Good fight
Sikmar
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 22, 2001 09:33 PM |
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Valera from Heroes Community
Reply Posted 2-14-2001 21:43
Hi guys,
the idea of keeping multiple towns on an extended time scale to advance building structures (just look at this wording is nice, it would mean that one big army and good hero does not win the game if other player does building properly.
You know what I think keeps Diablo 2 so addictive? You always get better stuff. In HOMM you can just get the best stuff pretty quickly and that's it. Getting the best stuff should take hours and should not even be achievable or necessary in every game I think.
I will make an effort to contact 3DO to look at our ideas, but they might be reading it all already, who knows...
Valeriy.
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 22, 2001 09:33 PM |
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wizardboy from Heroes Community
more towns.... Posted 2-18-2001 06:52
hey guys!!!
i like the idea of upgrading your castle type if you have more towns under your control but i see a problem!
what if you have a map that does not have a lot of towns in it??? for example the map 'crimson and clover' and any other small or medium maps?
then this idea couldn't probably work will it as the map will be the game's restriction...
well i do hope the guys are listening at 3do and i reall want the this and the creature experience ideas work....
well have fun guys...may the force of fun homm gaming be with you!
wizardboy
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 22, 2001 09:34 PM |
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wizard from Heroes Community
keep the game goin Posted 3-13-2001 03:58
NO bad idea do u guys understand how long it would take to get 10 castles the idea is way to far fetched the other ideas like the level of your hero thats dumb what if someone got set up with more experience on his side then it is unfair! go ahead modify one of your maps for fun then test it out put like all the major relics on one of the sides see who wins ! duh gotta come up with a better idea this game is UNDER the gaming category of STRADEGY not lets play a 10 hr game every time ! welll peace wiz
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dark_hunter7
Known Hero
Order, mages, lords, the RULE
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posted June 13, 2001 08:19 AM |
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I agree, I think You have to have a good heroe to build a good town and the heroe has to be there. Iknow once I piled up my dungeon forces so much and gave it to a l1 heroe! it FELT wierd. but that's the way it is. I think that's one of the harsh weak points of Homm3 that should be compensated in homm4.
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I'm back.... yessssss
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Kuma
Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
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posted July 05, 2001 03:19 PM |
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agreed 100% will make rdm XL maps even more interesting. e.g u can make a town out of a drag utop after u crashed it. giving opportunity to built all sorts of drags, or transfering drags. Like if u transfer a ghosty into a blck u pay 2 sulfur and 1000 gold and get 1 mercury back.
Same wif medusa stones: u can transfer all lvl 4 units to medusa, or all lvl 6 units to naga queens in a naga bank.
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.
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wizardboy
Known Hero
Look ma!..a glowing ball...
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posted July 08, 2001 03:59 PM |
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Quote:
agreed 100% will make rdm XL maps even more interesting. e.g u can make a town out of a drag utop after u crashed it. giving opportunity to built all sorts of drags, or transfering drags. Like if u transfer a ghosty into a blck u pay 2 sulfur and 1000 gold and get 1 mercury back.
Same wif medusa stones: u can transfer all lvl 4 units to medusa, or all lvl 6 units to naga queens in a naga bank.
sorry mate but this sounds too powerful....imagine there is a map with a lot griffin conservitories...there will be millions of griffins and angels flying everywhere...and besides i was playing a map the other day called buried treausre...the aim of the game is to get 25 black dragon and there two utopias in the map and i have two ramparts...think about the rest yourself....
and lastly i do think that 3do had thought about keeping the game lasting for more than 30 minutes and make buildings that we will visit again and again,..thinks about structures like water wheel and the place u get 500 gold or 5 gems(i forgot the name)i m sure they are there to keep us going back to that place again and again ...
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 Where do u go when you have gone too far?
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UnkaHaakon
Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
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posted July 28, 2001 07:48 AM |
bonus applied. |
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Looks like Valeriy got his wish
In light of the information released in the Gamespot article, I'd say the challenge will now last the whole game. Let's look at some of the reasons:
1) Town development has just gotten more complex. In fact, the interview stated it's very likely you'll never completely finish all the possible structures in a town during the course of a game. Plus, once you have both level one creature dwellings, you'll have to make serious decisions about which path to take with the rest of the town's creatures and buildings.
2) Neutral heroes and monsters will be able to move in a patrol radius instead of standing still. It may even be possible to trigger this movement based on player actions thanks to the new scripting feature. So, it may not be possible to merely avoid that stack of dragons anymore. They may come looking for you.
3) Heroes development has just gotten much more complex. Instead of essentially being just a collection of creature modifiers and spells, heroes would seem to be a more integrated part of the game. And, the new skill system makes for some interesting decisions on how your heroes advance. For instance, we're told you have to be at Grand Master level in a school of magic to use 5th level spells. Given that each skill has 5 levels, it means a hero who concentrated strictly on one school of magic would have to be 6th level to do this, and that's if they got offered an increase in that skill every time. Add in skills like Stealth (combined with the fog of war) and there will always be some tension.
4) Combat has just gotten tougher. Gone are the days of hacking apart weaker armies with impunity. Now those miserable peasants will still get their licks in. Plus, since heroes can become directly involved, a whole new set of tactics will have to be developed. Since neutral stacks may be composed of different creatures with only the strongest one showing, any spell like 'Visions' is going to be critical. Perhaps high levels of Scouting will help?
5) The revamped magic system means the days of cookie cutter magic heroes are probably gone. Since it's unlikely you'll be really good at more than a couple of schools of magic, mages will constantly be looking to improve their abilities, trying for those critical spells. "Oh look, I just captured an Academy with a fully built mage guild, including the libraries. Too bad I only know Nature and Chaos magic, so I can't learn any of these spells." New spells hinted at include illusionary creatures on the combat map, and summoning more than elementals.
6) 'Loyal' heroes add a new dimension to the game. Sometimes, you could luck out, and find that enemy high level hero with expert Earth magic and Town portal in your tavern, along with his 15 artifacts. According to the voiceover during the movies at Gamespot, that isn't going to happen any more. Conversely, if your best hero gets defeated, he won't be coming back at you again.
7) The prospect of scripting in maps excites me. I discussed this in a bit more detail in another thread ('Multiple Winning Conditions'), so I won't go into it here, except to say that it creates the possibility of a map going in different ways depending on what you do.
I think we're all going to have to take plenty of time learning all the aspects of the revamped game elements, and even once we think we've got it all, the game will continue to draw us in. At least, if the game lives up to its promise, it will.
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Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"
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Gunnrunner
Adventuring Hero
The Mail Order Bride From Hell
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posted July 29, 2001 11:58 AM |
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I personally think that we should do the following, make it that structures take longer then 1 turn to build, maybe 2 turns or more depending on the structure. But i also agree with the idea of raised prices.
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Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the dogs of war!
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kerberos_gr
Hired Hero
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posted July 29, 2001 02:50 PM |
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"where 3DO's respect has gone "
quote: "My point is that the game should have things that can be built gradually over a longer gameplay, so after 2 hours you would still have something completely new to aim for".
What can i say about this suggestion,well lets put it that way "I COULDNT AGREE MORE !".And i think most heroes players will agree with me.
The funny thing is that 3do has decided to go exactly to the opposite way concerning HEROES 4.
1)They have reduced the creatures dwellings that you can actually recruit from a town from 7 to only 5.(of course now you have more options concerning your building strategy,but unfortuantely the fact remains that in HEROES 4 you can recruit less creatures.)
2)They have reduced the number of towns from 9 to 6.
3)There is NO MORE CREATURE UPGRADING AT ALL.Yep, no more creature upgrading for you guys.And if you ask yourself why,well here is MARANTHEA'S (3DO stuff)comment about creature upgrading " They were redundant. The difference between a pikeman and a halberdier was a couple of stat changes. Nothing particularly exciting. No one was ever going to pick a harpy over a harpy hag. So we just got rid of the weaker version and went with the more powerful character. Most people spent their time (and money!) getting to the upgrade. It made the Hill Fort amazingly powerful and combining creature stacks difficult at times."
Well,Maranthea THANK YOU!!!You have really obliged us by "giving us the opportunity" to "save" time and money.
The problem is that the hole point of the HOMM game is not "how to play with creatures that are just strong" but TO MAKE THE RIGHT STRATEGIC CHOICES IN ORDER TO ACQUIRE CREATURES THAT ARE STRONGER THAN YOUR OPPONENTS!!!In fact what you(and 3DO) have really acheived ,Maranthea, is to reduce the strategic options of the game,to reduce in other words THE DEPTH of the game.
About how redundant is "creature upgrading" to the strategic aspect of the game,well Maranthea,i guess i ll have ask you to check HOMM 3 manual again in order to "remember" whats the difference between a swordsman and a crusader,a angel and an archangel,a green dragon-gold dragon,red-black dragon,vampire-vampire lord,behemoths-ancients,giant-titan,gremlin-master gremlin,wood elf-Grand elf e.t.c.
So the facts are ,that in HOMM4:
1)we can recruit much less creatures from a town.
2)we have much less towns.
3)There is no creature upgrading at all.
CONCLUSION(or the BIG WHY? )
Given the fact that all heroes sites are infested from players wishes (for HOMM4) asking for more creatures,more towns,BRIEFLY asking for MORE STRATEGIC CHOISES,and a reacher STRATEGIC ASPECT of the game,someone could ask himself WHY?!!,3DO ignored its funs,and decided to go the opposite way.
Well the answer is simple ,FOR PURELY COMMERCIAL REASONS!.
1)They have tried to create a simpler game in order to attract more new customers.Lets not forget that game complexity is always a discouraging factor for new players.(Thats why 3do have created Heroes chronicles,a much simpler version of HOMM3 for newbies).
2)I guess they are planning to release a lot of expansion packs,so the game will achieve a decent strategic depth after 1 or 2 expansion packs.
The problem is where 3DO's respect has gone for the wishes of the entire homm community...
Well the answer is simple again.
I guess it will be included in the next HOMM4(expansion pack)
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Cheesus
Known Hero
The Untouchable
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posted July 29, 2001 03:31 PM |
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I'm not sure where you get your info Kerberos
I think the strategical dept is really great at the release of homm4. It's an all new game to us, with over 60 creatures we cann all learn the specialities of and all these specialities are totally different.
When an expensian pack will be released yes they will prolly release more creatures. So far we have a LOT new things to discover and learn. I think homm4 is gonna be great ESPECIALLY since there are not much creatures. Yes, i thought so at first also but i changed my mind. Having less creatures but wider speciality should make your tacticall decissions far greater. I think with all the new options like heroes in combat, troops moving without heroes etc. the game will be great.
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Win or lose, it doesn't matter. The way it happens is what is important
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kerberos_gr
Hired Hero
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posted July 29, 2001 03:47 PM |
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Hehe,hello cheesus ,you know i like you too much to argue with you bud,i hope you are right about homm4,after all heroes is strictely the only game i have played for a long time(last 3 years).
But still i am very sceptic about the creature and town reduction,the creature-upgrading issue ,and what purpose these reductions serve.
Btw my sources for homm4 info is celestial heaveans unleashed "strategyplanet.com/homm/" and TOH'S heroes 4 database.
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Incubus
Disgraceful
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 29, 2001 05:01 PM |
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Grrrr Marenthea!!!!!!!!!!
3)There is NO MORE CREATURE UPGRADING AT ALL.Yep, no more creature upgrading for you guys.And if you ask yourself why,well here is MARANTHEA'S (3DO stuff)comment about creature upgrading " They were redundant. The difference between a pikeman and a halberdier was a couple of stat changes. Nothing particularly exciting. No one was ever going to pick a HARPY!!!!!!! over a HARPY HAG!!!!!!!!!!. So we just got rid of the weaker version and went with the more powerful character. Most people spent their time (and money!) getting to the upgrade. It made the Hill Fort amazingly powerful and combining creature stacks difficult at times."
It's so funny she uses harpy's in their explanations.....GRRRR THERE AREN"T ANY HARPIES IN HOMM4! Why she uses that name! Grrrrrrrrrr
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Gunnrunner
Adventuring Hero
The Mail Order Bride From Hell
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posted July 29, 2001 08:29 PM |
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No Upgrading, hmmm.... HOLY S#$%!!!
Ok this really, i mean really sucks. I expected more towns and more critters and more upgrades, if you ask me either somebody at 3DO has a sick sense of humour or HOMM IV is goina get bad gameplay ratings. Ok im going to the tavern near by. Oh damn i just remembered im in a muslim country where alcohol is illegal, sumbody get me 2 hand fulls of polos and a joltcola mixed together, that ought to suit me well.
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Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the dogs of war!
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dragonsister
Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
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posted October 24, 2001 09:32 AM |
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It's all in the map!
Quote:
sikmar from Heroes Community
The value of time again Posted 2-13-2001 15:31
Greetings, Valera and the other heroes:
I don't remember it well, but I think I posted something related to this idea in the creature experience thread. I think we all agree the game becomes mechanical when you've played for a long time. You can always win or loose, depending on the balancing of the map, but there's a moment when the resource collecting and the building order lose their meaning.
[snip]
Good fight
Sikmar
I don't agree with this 'mechanical' statement, as it happens, and I don't agree with the statement that games always lose their challenge past a certain point. It's often the case - I won't argue that - but the best single-player maps *don't* have this characteristic. (Multiplayer maps you're probably stuck with ...)
I recently played an excellent map combining story and strategy to fairly good effect; 'Five is the Principle', available from www.astralwizard.com. Having played several 'normal' maps recently, this one came as something of a revelation - *this* is more like it! You don't reach your full army production until about half-way through the map. Story and puzzle elements maintain interest and challenge thereafter (not but what they weren't present before!). It's not a perfect map - but it's a good one.
Other excellent maps have similar strengths; employing events, building restrictions, quests, story, and/or puzzles to good effect. This thread is all about changing the Heroes engine to make a better game ... *I* think you can change the individual map to make a better game, and I've played a number of different maps where this is demonstrated. The biggest catch is that such maps generally require a lot more time and imagination on behalf of the mapmaker. You can't just bang one out with the editor in a few hours - nor will the random map generator make one for you.
DragonSister
http://heroes.mycomport.com
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MapHaven
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