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| Thread: chaining, was it so good? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · NEXT» |
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mklthrkngl
Known Hero
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posted May 24, 2003 07:04 AM |
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chaining, was it so good?
I've noticed that one of the biggest arguments between the homm3/4 crowd is about chaining troops. Not sure why. Indeed some players liked to chain while others hated the whole process. In the end in homm3 you had to know how to do some chaining to be in anyway successfull. But I think the importace of it and what it says about the level of a players skill has been a bit overblown. Some of the best players who've ever played in TOH hardly ever chained in games at all. In fact one school of thought held that all that chaining wasn't even really much of any advantage on many maps. I once hosted a game for a tourney. You know where the host gets to watch the match between 2 other players. Was one of the coolest things i ever saw. 2 completely different styles of play, I won't name the players but they were both 2 of the giants of TOH. One was a master of chaining and it was amazing to watch him vacuum his side of the map with a string of 5 heroes. The other used chaining far less and in the end left much of his side uncontested, but most of his battles were done with his main and he was always perfectly positioned to drop his slow troops so his main would have max movement for the next turn. In the end it was the player who chained far less who won the game. I'm not saying that superchaining was not a good strategy, but it was never the only one and if some players decided to not chain every turn it did not mean they were any less worthy than players who loved to chain a lot. why is it that if someone can click there mouse faster and more accurate than another they are more strategically sound than another player? I remember that when i got a better comp with a much more accurate rollerball and a nice big 19 inch monitor so that i could just see the game better my chaining skills got way better. In heroes 2 where chaining was much more limitted the same people who were good players ended up being good players in homm3 wether they were big time chainers or not.
ps. I never personally liked chaining to much in games, was never into playing games where the turns took 30 mins or so. Almost always played 2 min turns.
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OK!! So i cann't spell well! So shoot me!!
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midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 24, 2003 10:17 AM |
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on randoms it is pretty important, tho i specifically made Extreme template to be a non-chainers map at Rych's request
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted May 24, 2003 10:18 AM |
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I had nothing against chaining
I wasnt a big chainer, but if I needed to move an artifact or creature across the map it was nice to have the option.
On the other hand, I wasnt really sad to see it adjusted in H4, so I guess whether its similar or not wont matter to me in H5 (if it ever comes out  )
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AndiAngelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted May 27, 2003 12:31 AM |
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im not sure what you mean with so good, chaining was EVERYTHING h3 was about, what JB means is he didnt chain around small troops to win unimportant battles just to gain some gold...
but who didnt chain troops from town to main, and from heroes to town to upgrade them? and who didnt give a L7 quick to a scout to clean something up?
I cant imagine playing heroes without chaining, coz its dull, plain simple
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted May 27, 2003 12:48 AM |
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Simple Simple mind, poor Andi. Guess if you need chaining, we wont be seeing you in H5 either. Oh well, evolution cant wait for ya.
Jinxer
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 27, 2003 12:52 AM |
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I hate the "use 7 heroes for 7 different battles" type chaining, just leads to actives and boredom, but as for making a 6 hero chain for new troops week 1, Andi is right, that is an essential part of heroes, and a part that I found pretty frustrating not to have.
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Myctteakyshd
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted May 27, 2003 01:03 AM |
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Well rychen I have to agree with you in Heroes 3 the way it was setup that kinda chaining was important. Chaining troops out to your main etc. But as you said the 7 hero massive clear the map in 5 days sweep chaining was a bit silly. I think Heroes 4 solved that problem rather nicely. You can send troops freely out to main army, but cannot chain them from hero to hero etc. Perfect solution.
Evolution!!! Its great. Gives hope for Heroes 5.
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 27, 2003 01:19 AM |
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Hmmm, depends what you mean by perfect solution. Sure you can get an army out to your main hero, but if your main is 5 days from town...= 5 days to wait. Granted you can do it a little faster with caravan, but what it does for me is slow down the game a lot. I liked heroes 3 chaining, the same way I liked heroes 4 non chaining, same as I liked the 2 skill developement systems. I guess there is just a so many players that were dissatisfied with all the changes.
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Myctteakyshd
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted May 27, 2003 01:34 AM |
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Well the fixing of the movement/chaining sitution was the BEST part of the changes. It is soo much more realistic. Each creature has its own movement. And since the creatures grow during week and not at end of week you can send the creatures out soon as they grown. So whats the difference if it takes 5 days to send troops out, or you wait 7 days till new week?
The things I Hate about it, are the less creature options in town. I like heroes on battle field, BUT I think Heroes are to strong. I think Heroes is evolving in the right direction. I am hoping that heroes 4 will be a nice playtest for Heroes 5
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 27, 2003 01:48 AM |
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You cant claim realism in a fantasy game...its fantasy. Creatures in heroes3 have infinite adventure map movement, as long as you had the heroes to transport them. And while heroes 4 rectifies this by giving creatures a movement value, it doesnt make it more "realistic" given that its a fantasy game (although all things should have a limited movement yes.) Its like the hero sitting in the battlefield in heroes 3, you should be able to attack him right?, he's right there!
Dont get me wrong, I'm a fan of non-chaining as well, Midnight designed Extreme template so that you had to power one hero up quickly to make any progress on the map, not waste 3 weeks clearing 2 zones with 7 different heroes. The main problem is that chaining was such an integral part of heroes 3, to see it totally disappear in heroes 4 successfully alienated many players.
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Myctteakyshd
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted May 27, 2003 02:07 AM |
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Well it is like the hit and run debate.... aint gonna change anyones mind. You guys are content with same stuff. Rest of us want and desire the change and evolution in the game. With each new version of the game it is gonna improve and change. Yes Chaining was the biggest massive tactic discovered. However, even though I think some limited creature transport chaining was intended, I dont think the massive chaining was what 3do had in mind. Thus they solved it in Heroes 4.
But I think its silly to debate back and forth, you guys like chaining and cant play without it. So Heroes 3 is only game for you. We did have great fun times, to bad we wont beable to unite in Heroes 5.
Peace and Keep on Gaming!
Jinxer
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 27, 2003 02:13 AM |
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On the contrary, I dont think its silly to debate back and forth, because I like both, I can play both. I would not necessarily like to see chaining back in heroes 5 and I dont think it will be. There are elements of both games that I would like to see, the skill developement from heroes 4, the tactical map and adventure layout from heroes 3. The attack/defense/power/knowledge way of doing things I like more, but I also like haveing the creatures develop during the week, not at the start of it every time.
If it was a pointless discussion, I wouldnt be having it, and please dont generalize and categorize me with "those guys", because i like both games.
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Myctteakyshd
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Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
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posted May 27, 2003 02:30 AM |
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Chaining is not really logical. I don't think that creatures can walk from one end of a map to another, just because they get different commanders. The HOMM4 system where every individual creature has a movement is far more logical. I also like the aspect that you can have the main army march in a straight line and take a few fast creatures to pick up anything aside of the road.
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Perception is everything.
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AndiAngelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted May 27, 2003 02:53 AM |
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The chaining thing i mean isnt that boring "I chain 4 Vamp lords from Refugee all over the map thing", i mean the basic stuff you did in heroes 3 when you bring new troops to the front etc.
you cant take that away from this game, if you do, well you see what happened to h4...a lame ass game, dont give me that evolution and new things crap Jinxer - what they did is simplify the game, if evolution means a step back than snow it
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted May 27, 2003 04:50 AM |
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hmmm
From what I can tell, Chaining wasnt really 1 of the big differences between H3 and H4 that many people were upset about.
But in H4 u can still do certain types of chaining and such, just a different way and strategy when doing it.
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I will not lose.
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 27, 2003 08:44 AM |
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Quote:
So whats the difference if it takes 5 days to send troops out, or you wait 7 days till new week?
The difference is, if you're going for the opponent, your new troops won't be there, while his will 
Seems unbelievable that people complain about rushing, lol.
However, those weekly reinforcements are one of the points I don't like about H4. "Hmm.. a new efreet in town. Let's take him to the front. Ah cool, 3 new medusas as well - that nobility guy really pays off. Ok, I'll send them along. Oh wait, they make my efreet slower. Ah who cares, they'll be at the tope in 2 days. (next turn) Oh, one more efreet. And I got a pretty amount of level 1s too. Hmm, fodder won't hurt in a tope, let's send those as well. Should be there in 2 more days. (next turn) Damn, a new hydra.... ". Reminds me a bit of chewing gum, hehe.
What I really like about H4 though, is the hero development and the possibility to combine different heroes. As long as there are no unstoppable combos of course.
TIMMAY 
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted May 27, 2003 09:07 AM |
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I think I remember
being one of the pioneers of the chaining thing back when I started playing homm1 hot seat, then in homm2 tourneys. Its always been there, but I dont think its 'realistic' even in a fantasy game.
The fact that movement-limited creatures now occur in homm4, its was a good implementation of blocking chaining.
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mklthrkngl
Known Hero
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posted May 28, 2003 01:01 AM |
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what an interesting turn!
Strange how this post turned into an argument about weather chaining itself was good or bad. I think I was a little unclear in the openning , sorry about that. What I meant for this string to be about was weather you could claim one player was better than another by how well they chained or not. I was getting tired of players basicly grouping themselves as good and bad players by how well or how much they chained in a game of homm3. My argument is that there were other winning strategies besides mega chaining that could be used successfully. Some of the best players, many of whom have graced this string with there opinions, , yes even Jinxer!! hehehe, will back me up when I say that while mega chaining is indeed an effective strategy, it is not the only one that can be used to achieve a win. Except that slow B@stard Andi of course!! He could make even 2 min turns into an eternity hehehe
ps. I'll take any of those old dinosaure superchainers on in a 2min turn game!! I'll still prob. lose, as my record will attest! But atleast I get to hear em grumble about how there turn ran out and they couldn't get to that 7th fight in a row on there turn!!!! hehehe
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OK!! So i cann't spell well! So shoot me!!
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted May 28, 2003 07:22 AM |
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you dont need to be really good at chaining in this game.
There are many different strategies, and at bast board there is another topic on this which IMO says it most and its different tactics.
So no need to toss it all down here again.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted May 28, 2003 06:38 PM |
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You make a good point Stiven, I think people lose site of why Massive map sweeping chaining is even possible.
The question MKTL asked was if massive chainers were better.
Answer: Yes and No
Massive sweep chaining is ONLY possible and effective on a map that the player has memorized and studied, and or played enumerous times. You have a preset plan on where your going on map and when. You know how many heroes to buy and where to put them and when. Its all about meorization and calcuation and taking the time and patience to learn how to chain on a map like that. And yes anyone can chain, if they have the pateince and time to learn the maps in that way. SO you can say a player is great player because he chains and thusly wins alot, BUT that is conditional, on if they play maps they are comfortable with.
Take a random map for example, sure there is still chaining involved, but no where near possible to be as efficient and effective as on a set studied map. Why do you think people played the same maps over and over and over. They claim cause they like them and they fun! LMAO , what was fun about them was they found out how to exploit the map with learned patterns and chaining so they could gains wins. Its always fun to win.
I personally think that is part of the reason why some of the higher ranked H3 players are so dead set agaisnt, h4. Because it is no longer easy to use a patterned chaining tactic. Andi claims it is actually simplified in H4, but he couldnt be more wrong. The game is actually much deeper in strategic tactics. If ya ask me H3 was far to simplistic in the fact all you had to do was study learn the map then plan your chain layout, then just play same way ever game for 50+ games. Almost every game of H4 I played has been different.
Jinxer
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