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| Thread: Heroes V- The best game eva | |
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The_Baal
Hired Hero
The God Of Fire
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posted May 26, 2003 06:17 AM |
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Heroes V- The best game eva
The earliest information known about Heroes V was that NWC were thinking about reverting to the old Heroes I-III. Some people misinterpreted this as almost a sure reasoning as to why Heroes V will be a ‘trip down nostalgia lane’ as someone had said. It has also been rumoured by members of the community that Heroes IV was a ‘stepping stone’ to fully develop the greatness of Heroes V. Then there was the time of squabbling, people arguing about Heroes on the Battlefield, the Battlefield itself, and the uniqueness of castles. But all of that arguing has been put to rest by a few words, by Christian Vanover: “towns aren't going to return to what they were like in Heroes I-III” While I realise that this concerns only the towns aspect of the game, it would also make sense that NWC are going to start with a fresh slate, and remake everything for Heroes V. I am not saying, however, that this is set in stone, in fact, it is quite far from set in anything at the moment, but only time will tell what aspects are going to be taken from the previous series and ones which are completely new…..
There has been some Heroes V media circulating around the 3D0 Community, and with the untimely departure of Christian Vanover from the NWC team, there are likely to be some changes to the initial plan of Heroes V.
After the release of the two new screenshots, which can be found here: http://dynamic3.gamespy.com/~homm/images/heroes5/H5_Phoenix.jpg
And here: http://dynamic3.gamespy.com/~homm/images/heroes5/H5_Undead_Capital.jpg
It can be inferred that the adventure map will be using a similar engine to that of the Heroes IV engine, most likely with a few tweaks. The town appears to be very detailed, and looks a great deal larger and more unique (i.e, not a square) than its Heroes IV predecessor. The terrain, which happens to be the native one for Necropolis, looks very detailed, with not just one texture running throughout the whole screenshot. I am hoping this is also represented in the town screen.
The angle of the Phoenix in the screenshot suggests the horizontal chess-like view won’t be returning. Although, it doesn’t give too much away, since it is not represented with any other creatures, or on the battlefield. So the battlefield orientation is still up in the air. In my opinion though, it doesn’t seem exactly like Heroes IV, nor is it identical to III.
While NWC may only have a small development team at this point, it seems that already many aspects of Heroes IV are being changed and recreated. This thread’s purpose is to discuss ideas about the new changes (not to create lists for towns or make up creature ideas) to Heroes V. This includes Towns, Battlefield, Adventure Map, Adventure Map Objects, and others, if you so desire. How these features will be integrated into the current Heroes V can also be discussed, as can theorizing about levels, and town structures.
I will list 4 categories for each element, and comment on them respectively (You can use the same layout if you wish). These will be Perspective (Layout), Graphics, Engine, and Miscellaneous.
Towns
Perspective
It is quite obvious that a full 3D town map with interchangeable zoom options will not occur in Heroes V. What is certain, however, is that it will be different to anything we have seen in previous versions of the Heroes series. There are an infinite number of ways the town screen can be projected, and it is therefore difficult to predict which one will work best or will assimilate with Heroes V in an appropriate fashion. Some ideas which have occurred to me are:
=}Taken from a first person perspective where the hero visiting the castle (or a dweller if no hero is present) roams around the castle.
=}It is taken from a semi-3D perspective in which the whole castle can be see, and the camera swings from left to right along the front.
=}Basic Heroes IV layout with more interactivity.
Another aspect of towns concerning his topic are the positioning of creature dwellings and structures in the towns. The Heroes IV method was much too generic, as everything was placed in the same spot. And it seemed that each town had an equivalent structure. (The one in the same spot). This must change in Heroes V to Heroes III, for example where the town had its own unique setting, (Dungeon=subterranean, Fortress=swamp, Rampart=forest). I think this layout definitely needs to return in Heroes V for the town layouts to be somewhat pleasing to look at, not just copies of themselves with slight changes.
Graphics
A feature, which has been at the back of my mind recently are the background and ‘eye candy’ aspects of the town. Heroes III implemented these two features extremely well. The Rampart was perhaps the most scenic of the towns, with its lush meadows and acres of trees. Its background was of clear, blue skies above a very forest-like setting. What I’d like to see improved is when the town (such as a Dungeon) is above ground, its setting and scenery change. In essence, there is one layout for above ground and one for below. (Provided there is a subterranean area)
The eye candy aspect I mentioned was the moving of creatures or inhabitants within the castle. In Heroes IV, the town were almost static, with the exception of a few moving structures. A perfect example of a dose of what I want to see in Heroes V is the Heroes IV Rampart town. Not only did the Dragons fly in and out of the cliffs, periodically, a Gold Dragon appeared among the sea of Green Dragons. That gave extra satisfaction for me. It also had the moving waterfall for the Pegasus dwelling. Not only the creature dwellings moving, but some of the town’s inhabitants in the pre-built villages, which are found in Heroes IV, near the level 1 dwellings.
As for 2D-3D graphics, I would prefer 2D, as it can look nicer, and it is easier to manipulate. (I do not want to get in a discussion about 2D-3D graphics, just thought I’d voice my opinion briefly.)
Engine
The town engines in both Heroes III and Heroes IV aren’t perfect. In fact, I’m leaning towards more Heroes II. But, with that said, I think the town engine needs to be new and unique in order for it to work.In my opinion, after much deliberating, the no-upgrades system in Heroes IV did not work. It was too simple, and too short, and also put a ‘tax’ on the structures, which lead to inflated prices. I much prefer the Heroes III upgrades, where each creature had one upgrade. The 6 levels that Christian mentioned are exactly what I agree on. 7 levels were too much, and they were uneven, while 4 levels were much too little. 6 levels is perfect, in my opinion. It is an even number, which means there is an even advancement of levels, and 6 levels (+ upgrades hopefully) is enough to have ample depth without going over the top and the town being centred upon creatures.
I believe that the number of structures in each town needs to be increased. While there were the additions of the prison and the caravan in Heroes IV, (they should stay) there need to be more buildings to do with the town, and more unique buildings that link directly to the town. The shipyard needs to be available in every town, and the marketplace needs to return as in Heroes III, as does the Thieves Guild. New buildings are a must. While I don’t believe there need to be many more (1 or 2) there still needs to be extra depth added, especially in the castle upgrades (fort, citadel, etc.)
I also want it to be made clear that the structures (especially mage guilds) need to have progressively higher cost, as they were too easy to build in Heroes IV.
While the Stronghold should have inferior magic abilities to the other towns, they still need a mage guild, be it that it reaches level 2. Having a town without magic is too much of a disadvantage. It has, however, been mentioned by Christian that the towns will not be built around magic, but instead have their own unique theme, which could be very interesting.
Miscellaneous
On a miscellaneous note, even though I believe the citadel to castle upgrade or fort to citadel upgrade needs to be made more prominent by increasing creature growth, etc. I am willing to go back to the Heroes II method of ‘fortifications’, which made the castle sturdier.
I also encourage that the Thieves Guilds tally the information up the more you have in any towns. So if you have 3, it will give more information than 1.
Battlefield
Perspective
Perhaps one of the most pressing issues striking the Heroes world at the moment. The only ‘solid’ piece of information we have at this point in time is the famous screenshot of that magnificent Phoenix, which can be found earlier in the thread. At closer inspection of this screenshot, I can gather that the battlefield will not be exactly like Heroes IV, nor will it be exactly like the previous versions. A recent ‘Picture of the Day’ at Celestialheavens.com has strengthened my belief. (http://dynamic3.gamespy.com/~homm/potd_images/big/karyll_phoenix.jpg) It represents the Phoenix in both circumstances, and one can immediately decipher which one fits better. However, having said it fits better isn’t the same as saying it fits the best. While the Phoenix blends in with the Heroes IV background better, it is apparent that the Heroes V battlefield will start on a fresh slate, and not referring to the previous instances.
This would probably suit most people, because their preference of battlefield layout is very divided. While it is true that Christian made mention of a possibility that the battlefield will be returning to the left-right perspective: “We want to put the armies on the left and right sides of the screen.” The screenshot points in another direction. I myself am hoping for a rejuvenated battlefield, with greater practicality. My main problem with the Heroes IV battlefield was the grid and passibility. The grid was, in my opinion, to small and did not provide much aid. While the passibility factor was questionable. It seemed as though my creature could fit through the gap, but in actuality, could not. It took a HC member a while to interpret the grid and passibility, and posted it in the Lands of Axeoth for all to see.
Another characteristic changing in Heroes V is the size of the battlefield. The “nearly 50% larger” comment by Christian refers to the Phoenix’s actual size on the battlefield. As one can see from the screenshot in brackets above, it dwarfs both the Heroes III and Heroes IV creatures. This could also mean that the battlefield itself will be smaller than it was in Heroes I-IV.
Graphics
It is quite obvious now that the graphics for the battlefield will not be 3D. And why should they? They look better than any 3D picture that I’ve ever seen. The screenshots look glorious. While we have seen the front of the phoenix, ‘I don’t like seeing the back of my creatures’ activists are maybe hoping that the creature been rendered in 3D. This is because the phoenix still looks quite isometric, which could lead to having an army not facing us. This doesn’t bother me greatly, since I think that seeing the creatures from the back gives you the feel that you actually commanding them.
Engine
I would find it difficult to believe that it would stray too much from the original engine used in Heroes games. But the one that will have the greatest influence is Heroes IV, in my opinion. The line of sight was a great feature implemented in Heroes IV, but I think it can be extended further. Objects on the battlefield, such as trees, should not only halt progress, but act as a guard for ranged attacks as well. I think it is a bit illogical having only creatures as guards for LoS. While it may be too much of a benefit for one side, both sides will have the same problem, so it really depends in the way one uses it, thus adding more strategy.
The basic, turn based system should still be utilised, as should speed determining the creature/hero? Order, while movement determines the distance. The grid does need to be reworked in a way that one block would represent the smallest creature, 2x2 represents a large creature, and 2x1 represents long or wide creatures. Having larger grid squares allows for a more chess-like representation, which can still be used in an isometric screen. Realistic retaliation is another sizeable issue that was introduced in Heroes IV. In my opinion, this was another masterful idea. It made no-retaliation and first-strike more important, and at the same time, made battles more strategic and realistic. In terms of the ranged realistic retaliation, (RRR) it was not as good an idea as its counterpart. Ranged attacks are meant to be a surprise, and the sheer distance should be enough to put them off who to attack, let alone load the arrow.
For the Heroes V battlefield engine to be perfect, I think it needs to expand slightly and come up with new ideas to suit the changes NWC are going to make in other areas. And since I don’t know what those changes are going to be, I can’t make a worthy comment on it.
Miscellaneous
A miscellaneous feature that could be important to some fans is the background of the battlefield. This was present in Heroes I, II and III, and showed a receding view of the landscape. One I can distinctly remember was from Heroes II, where, in the lava terrain, you would see many volcanoes, erupting and bubbling, as well as the liquid hot magma. The only problem is implementing it in Heroes V, with the non-left to right battlefield.
The aspect of the hero only cheering when the enemy troops were defeated was not enough in Heroes I, II and III. In Heroes V, it is really dependant on what is to become of heroes in combat, but at the moment, it is not looking good. If the hero is to just play a passive role in the battle, he/she should have more of a role, even if it is not in the combat itself. Maybe the hero could ride around to the other side of the battlefield and jeer the opposing hero, and possibly, if one of its creatures kills an enemy stack, that creature receives a bonus. Things like these may make the hero being on the sidelines not so bad, especially if there were more of them.
Adventure Map
Perspective
This issue may not be as hard-pressed as the previous matters, due to the commendations the Heroes IV adventure map perspective received, but it is an important issue nonetheless. Judging from the earlier screenshot of the adventure map it seems as though NWC have decided to stick with the diagonal or isometric view, where all objects are diagonal instead of straight like Heroes II. However, what does appear to be changing, is the individuality of the towns. This corresponds with the uniqueness that the towns will most likely possess on the town screen. They will no longer be pictured as boxes, all resembling the same basic plan of four corners and a large centrepiece, instead, they will have their own character and feel, this means different shapes, and dissimilar layouts. It will certainly be a step forward from the ‘toy boxes’ that we saw in Heroes IV, which is certainly an advantage. However, the diagonal adventure does pose a problem in my mind, but it can be easily fixed. All buildings and structures are diagonal either facing left or right, and there is no way to rotate it. Therefore, if one is making a map, one must build the area around a different way, and that may not assimilate with the remaining sections of the map. The way this quandary can be solved is by making objects rotatable to both left and right sides.
While the perspective of the adventure map may be quite similar to Heroes IV, one can be assured of more detail and the reliability of the old layout.
Graphics
It is quite apparent that the graphics engine will be fairly similar to the one utilised in Heroes IV. This is primarily because of the reduced team numbers at NWC. However, the engine will most likely be modified, so that the graphics can be updated into a new level of complexity and rendering. We’ve seen the battlefield graphics change immensely, but the adventure map is slightly behind. I believe that is acceptable, since the graphics of the adventure map were the least of our problems in Heroes IV. I would love to see the objects appear more realistic, and Heroes IV was a step toward this. From the Necropolis town screenshot, it gives the impression that the hero will actually be able to ‘fit into’ the town itself. This is what I am hoping for, as it gives the game a more realistic feel. The graphics of the adventure map objects and landscape objects themselves were rendered nicely, and the numbers of these objects were plentiful. One aspect that did not surpass my expectations was the water, and its effects. In Heroes V, I would like to see the water actually move in waves, to make it seem like water, not part of the terrain. Also what is needed is the swell of a ship that is sailing through, again adding towards the realistic approach.
Concerning the landscape objects, I would like to see them integrate into the terrain well, similar to the towns. This was a major problem with previous Heroes series, and was fixed to an extent in Heroes IV, but it needs to be improved upon more by having the structures ground base change colour and texture. I think going any further than that would be too challenging.
Engine
Scripting was one of the best features introduced to Heroes IV (I think) and should certainly be carried on to Heroes V. Another advancement of scripting should be that everything with a script in the game can be modified by the player. This means artifacts, spell descriptions, anything that normally would pop up onto the screen.
Unfortunately, not much is known about the adventure map’s engine yet, since it is impossible to tell just by peering at screenshots. Aspects that I would like for NWC to improve upon are:
Fog of War
I remember myself, Tristan, Djive and Linkki talking about this more than a year ago, and speculating upon its possibilities. What we had perceived was that the elevations in terrain would make town have a larger fog of war removal radius due to its high level. As it actuates, this was not the case. I would much rather see a higher level of coexistence with the terrain, fog of war, and the castle than the Fog of War being taken away at all.
Caravan
I would like to see the caravans (literally), as then you would know how far they travel and exactly what creatures are blocking the path (if there any), without you having to search for them. It would be appreciated if the caravans could actually be sent to another inter-actable place on the adventure map, such as a garrison or some other area where troops could be stationed. To portray this, the troops could be placed in the ranks automatically, or left outside if there all slots are filled.
A new feature that could be implemented could be a line of sight-on the adventure map. This incorporates the neutral creatures on the map not being able to see down a depression and therefore not spotting you going by. The same would happen to other computer players, and possibly even human players. This can also function with trees and mountains (Not able to see the hero behind them), and the game not making the object transparent so you are able to see. As always, a new skill could be attached to this, Line of Sight (Adventure Map)
Miscellaneous
I would actually like to see a greater array of objects, even though Heroes IV had the most in the series, they are hardly enough to fill an extra large, or even a densly structured large map. I find myself reusing the same objects time and time again. This can be achieved by objects such as mercenary camps returning, and other classic places such as the Gazebo and the Oracle, which shows all.
On the subject of oracles and such, marketplaces, taverns and thieves guilds need to be placed on the adventure map. It was too bland not having an adventure map marketplace or thieves guild and are (In my opinion) vital to have to work for, rather than being at the click of a button as they previously were.
Congratulations! You have received a ‘ThE_HyDrA prize’, for you were able to read up to this point without stopping.
While I realise I have not written about every aspect of the game, I can say that I have covered a fair amount. For those who wish not to get involved, don’t. But to those who would like to speculate about the new future of a new game, go ahead. All ideas are welcome, and nothing is too late as of yet. This thread replaces my earlier “Heroes V, The Future is Upon Us” thread.
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The yellow eyes of Zealot.
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FireDragon
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 26, 2003 06:19 AM |
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A brilliant post. I agree with everything.
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FireDragon
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 26, 2003 06:21 AM |
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This will alert the Hydra to the mods
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The_Baal
Hired Hero
The God Of Fire
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posted May 26, 2003 06:26 AM |
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I don't know what your talking about but this post is the best iv eva written
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The yellow eyes of Zealot.
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Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
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posted May 26, 2003 06:57 AM |
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May I ask why you have been copying The Hydra's post? Apparently, you did not even bother replacing the name or adding another comment. This post was the first post written in the Altar of Wishes thread: Heroes V: A new beginning.
The original post can be found here:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=5&TID=8496&pagenumber=1
And if you claim it to be your own work, then that is plagiarism.
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Perception is everything.
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted May 26, 2003 07:46 AM |
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...and you're out of the game!
strike one: wrong forum for this kind of posts
strike two: this is a been there, done that situation there are numerous threads on the topic already... which brings us to...
striiiiiike three: this is of course ThE_HyDrA's post and since I am a bit sensitive on this kind of stuff, you just crossedthe line ...expect no mercy
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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MandyBug1982
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posted May 26, 2003 08:09 AM |
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Ohh no a post stealer, I think that might be a bad thing. HyDrA puts alot of time in his work so please don't do that 
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Thank you and good night
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FireDragon
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 26, 2003 02:04 PM |
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But the baal and I know the Hydra personally he is our friend. Another one of our friends who I think was called the ice dragon or something stole a post from another heroes community and he didn't get penalised.
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted May 26, 2003 02:15 PM |
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I see...
...and your point is what exactly?
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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FireDragon
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 27, 2003 06:17 AM |
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Don't worry the baal will be back in more forms then you can imagine. And is it ok to take posts of other heroes communities?
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Lich_King
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted May 27, 2003 08:16 AM |
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So ? So you think it will scare us ? LOL
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted May 27, 2003 09:15 AM |
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still don't see your point...
Quote:
Don't worry the baal will be back in more forms then you can imagine. And is it ok to take posts of other heroes communities?
let him come... we will be around to stop him.. .as for stealing posts from other forums, if I find out, you are toast... it is one thing to say "hey, I found this somewhere and thought I'd share" and another to say "look at what I posted:" or say nothing at all... as far as I'm concerned, this case is closed
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted May 27, 2003 09:52 AM |
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Crap... A before-time member ( ) reappears and is welcomed with a -qp... Well, at least he deserved it...
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Yolk and God bless.
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My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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phoebeduviels
Known Hero
Que?
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posted May 27, 2003 10:03 AM |
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what about creatures....
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CENSORED MATERIAL NOT APPROPRIATE FOR CHILDREN !
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Lich_King
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted May 27, 2003 10:14 AM |
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Ohh.. btw...
30 day silence activated...
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