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| Thread: Towns have Building Points |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
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posted October 18, 2003 08:18 PM |
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Towns have Building Points
Instead of the current system of one build a day, why not have building points?
It doesn't make sense that a town can build an entire castle in one day and dragon cliffs on the next, but can't upgrade to centaur captains and build fountain of fortune on the same day. Building a castle and dragon cliffs is much more difficult and should take longer than other structures.
Each town will have a maximum number of building points and a rate of regeneration just like with magic points.
Let's say that rampart has a maximum of 50 building points.
Rampart regenerates 20 building points per day.
Mage Guild Level 1 costs 16 building points.
Upgrading to Battle Dwarves costs 8 building points.
Building Dragon Cliffs costs 37 building points.
Castle costs 40 building points.
Unicorn Glades costs 25 building points.
Marketplace costs 8 building points.
Resource Silo costs 13 building points.
In each town, you may spend an amount of gold to get more building points. The idea is that paying more money will entice the town to build more, because people like money.
Ex: Rampart - 750 gold = 1 building point.
Therefore if you only have 30 building points at the end of week 1, and you have 5250 extra gold, then you can build dragon cliffs a day earlier.
If you have 0 building points you can build a castle for 35000 gold, since it normally cost 5000 and 40 building points would cost 30000 gold. Obviously you would just wait two turns, because you can buy an entire week's army on 30000 gold.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 20, 2003 07:14 AM |
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Awsome idea!
Infact there is room for more to it.. but yours is definately good
There should be a way to build more than 1 building at the same time, but the buildings get built faster if your only building 1 thing at a time.
This could be reasoned as introducing a labor force statistic. How many building points you can knock out in 1 day.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 20, 2003 11:02 PM |
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You scould have building points or construction points not only for buildings but also for generating creatures, expanding city and income.
It works similar to this in Age of Wonder with the difference that in AoW you can only produce one thing at the time. It would be much better if you could choose freely what to produce.
The bigger the city's population (and it should grow with time and number of buildings), the more production points you have.
At any time you could split your production points into:
- Producing creatures
- Producing housing (for settlers, allows city to grow faster)
- Producing buildings
- Produce monetary income
For creatures 50 XP worth of Creatures could be 1 production point.
Producing Housing is the way to expand from Village to Town and onwards. Say you need to spend 50 production points on housing (maximum 5 per day) to grow from Village to Town.
Buildings are as mentioned.
And if you produce for money, you get a certain say 2% additional money from the town for each Production point spent on earning money.
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted October 26, 2003 09:26 AM |
bonus applied. |
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4 cents
RedSoxFan3:
1) i would suggest that if there are too many building points per day on one building then the building points will be used less efficiently. if you put too many workers on one object then they will not have enough space.
without those space limitations we might end up in traditional homm style building system, because it's better to complete one building first and then the other, rather than build two buildings at the same time.
2) i wouldn't use the word 'regenerate' when talking about building points. it suggests that you can accumulate building points, doesn't it? it's like your builders get used up during the process of building and you cannot use them next time. i would suggest to use 'building points available daily' or 'daily building points' or just 'daily points' instead.
3) as far as i understood, you meant that if you build for regenerated building points, it's free, and you can buy additional building points for money. i would see two different solutions here:
3a) considering the feudal society thing, peasants worked for the landlord for the right to live on landlord's lands (this would look most natural imho). in that case you could use the daily points (actually i guess there's probably a special word in english for this kind of work) to building or training, and unused points would generate money. what i havn't thought about is: what do you need the money for?
3b) you have town income and can buy a limited number of building/training points every day.
Djive:
4) maybe you could already guess my opinion on the housing thing, but to be sure (lol), i just say that i believe more in increasing castle influence on population that already exists in surrounding lands than population increase or people resettling. i agree it's somewhat similar, but i rather like to build the castle than a house or cabin for every commoner.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 26, 2003 10:28 AM |
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On 3a) only the Haven town (or similar) would be feudal. Peasants and Landlords is something which doesn't apply at all for undead, demons, mages, elves, dwarves and so on. In fact, the only town I can think of where it's applicable is humans.
You always get use for money. Either for crafting items/buildings in city, paying for training and/or upkeep of soldiers.
The Produce Housing was meant as an "attract settlers" option. That is: you make the town a nice place to be in order to attract more people. Simply, put it allows the city to expand faster in population.
Creature dwellings will also attract settlers/newcomers to a certain extent, and the castle could also work in a similar way.
The castle could work as a creature portal capable of attracting a certain amount of randomly aligned creatures each turn. Some of these would be trained and offered for recruitment, others would add to population.
The "House production points" was meant to indicate an increase in population (and I didn't want to go into detail of actual population numbers), though in the end it would be translated to X creatures coming each day (and X would be less than 10, since towns should be small in my opinion.) So each "House production point" would translate to perhaps +5 population.
This needs to be thought through a bit... The mechanisms and buildings available to a Necropolis should be different. The security of a castle would not attract Undead, so there should be something else for Necropolis.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted October 26, 2003 09:21 PM |
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Djive:
actually my skepticism on producing housing to increase population, as far as it is initiated by the landlord, is based on rather simplistic ideas.
was it edison or someone else who first suggested to mass produce housing? as far as i remember my history lessons at school, it failed, probably because people did not want to live in standardized houses in these times.
i guess some housing might have been built for some professional people, for example some military barracks or something the like. but if some housing was produced for the sole purpose of increasing population in medieval times, then, from my point of view, it would be a high time to remind me of it, because my thoughts are going in the opposite direction really fast right now.
i didn't quite understand what you meant byQuote:
The castle could work as a creature portal capable of attracting a certain amount of randomly aligned creatures each turn.
it makes me think that you meant that those creatures come to the castle as sightseers and then settle in the surrounding lands. even if this could be a good reason to make people want to resettle, i don't think that in medieval times people were as free to move around and settle where they liked as in modern united states. or.. maybe you think of a castle as a town while i think of a castle more as a castle of some higher noble in the countryside?
if the other town types didn't have feudal society, what type of society should they have then? in the old times i guess people were a lot more narrow-minded because of less communication. in fairy tales they seemed to apply feudal society even to some animals (e.g. they had king of snakes sort of things). i think academy would be an exception as some half-unearthly utopian society (i would suggest republic maybe), but if you have ideas of society types that are different from feudalism for the other towns, it would be interesting to read some of your suggestions.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 26, 2003 09:46 PM |
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I understand the whole day thing system in homm..
Perhaps if each turn were equivalent to mabey 4 days, the building points would be bettter. and the castle, would take about 2 turns, where a market place would take less than 1. Of course, the recruit system is similar to homm4.. Each turn theres a small addition of creatures to buy
Besides.. I'm amazed in half these senarios the heroes build all this crap in a day, and raise armies enough to die and rebuild, in matters of 2 weeks ect.
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted October 26, 2003 10:14 PM |
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i dont like this idea because its way to resource based.
I understand that all these terms are relative. But imagine for example a system like this with heroes 3 stronghold.
I would make beths day1 easily while my opp with for example dungeon would struggle forever to get dragons.
Another negative view on this IMO is that makes the building way in this game more powerful then it alrdy is. With a system like suggested your more low lvl creatures has basically no value at all because you could instead use as many building points you could day 1 to get good units which would reduce your losses to barely any. So the handling of lesser units more or less disappears and going for a more "crashing" kind of gameplay would be use useless (with crashing kind of gameplay i mean upg. necessary units to clear hives and cons and build your army that way.
And to get back alittle to my first point, the building requirements would also have a big influence in this. Because some towns (like strong) which needs one or two buildings to get lvl 7 creatures while for example dungeon needs every dwell to get it plus a lvl 2 mage guild.
I can understand the idea of this system would be to increase your options but the problem is that i think it will do the exact opposite. It will limit em instead and bring up stereotyphical gameplay which would as stated earlier lead to a major buy out day1..because it doesnt matter if you use all the building points you got then because it will be restored in just as many days as it would if you would buy one building each day. You will just get your higher lvl creatures faster.
Which brings up another negative perspective and thats the resource planning which would disappear since you could get what you want no matter if you screw up one day.
Im like many other online players of this game has started cursing when the chest you expect to get atleast 1k gold from which is necessary for your building that day instead gives you a toss treasure art (most likely an eagle eye on too it seems  ) but in a bigger perspective thats just a part of the game too. And it would feel weird if you could make up for this "mistake" the day after and get 2 buildings then instead because you still would have enough building points and now you have gotten some more gold aswell.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 26, 2003 10:19 PM |
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limited options.. 1 per day (if you have building prequisits & resource met)
Unlimited options.. Build either this and this, or just this, or just start working on that (castle).. ECT
Where did you get the idea, that you can build anything without buildings already built? No you cant start off and get level 7s. You still have to meet building requirements. However..
In my opinion, most building requirements are BS anyways.. Its another topic, to make them more suitable.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 27, 2003 03:03 AM |
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"Produce housing" increases attractiveness of town. Whether it's a park, church or giving town a working water system or public baths are irrelevant.
Yes, people had less moveability in feudal socities but I don't see why we should take over this aspect to a fantasy game. There are many times and countries were the lower classes have been free to move, or to change to another master and moving that way. This feature is also distinctly human and wouldn't apply for other races than humans. Fantasy means that game designers can set up their own scenarios.
The creatures doesn't come as sight-seers. They come for the security offered by the walls of the castle, and the garrison which accompanies the castle. Protection.
The creatures settle in the town, which lies close to the castle, and they seek selter in castle in case of an attack. Creatures can also come to serve the lord in the hope of gaining greater glory, or whatever.
When it comes to undead then I'd say it has to work differently. Undead doesn't join for greater glory, nor do they seek employment or something else. They work without payment, and would not require monetary upkeep. Instead I'd say an undead town's castle would be a "Undead Beacon" trying to lure undead to town.
There would be defences against the living but only because the Lord wants the security, not because the 'citizens' wants it.
The structures in an undead town are solely for the benefit of the Lord, and his needs. Since undead doesn't require money for upkeep, I think they should require Mana or Spellpoints to keep them around. Most of the structures in an undead town should produce Mana to maintain the undead population.
The Necropolis also needs a constant supply of new dead, or the town would eventually stagnate due to lack of corpses.
When it comes to Demons, then lower demons don't work by tilling the fields. They will serve a master, but if they're tied to one master or if they can switch is an open question. Likely, given their treachourous nature they will serve the strongest master, so I'd say they are free to change.
Celfious:
Building points HAVE to replensih daily, or rather they have to replenish EACH PLAYER TURN. I'd like to see somthing like AoW2 style. That means it will take several days to complete most structures.
But a player turn is a relative thing, and it's not defined how long that is. It might be a week or a month. The calendar we have in Heroes series is just an abstraction which serves the purpose of letting us know how many tturns you've played. The reason for calling it days, weeks and month is just to make it more familiar. In reality, armies moved MUCH, MUCH slower and sieges took often weeks instead of a say 1 hour in a day.
Sir Stiven:
Why do you think you'll make Behemoths easily? And just WHEN do you think a Behemoth will eventually become available? I'd say the likely result is that either the designers makes behemoths weaker and available sooner, or they make them as strong as dragons and they will become available at the same time.
Resources (crystals and so on) are a thing which aren't all that necessary to the game. They could even be excluded leaving you with only Gold and Mana.
Also do notice, you CAN'T start on a new building which has a prerequisite which you are building on. Also, you CAN'T train/produce Behemoths until after the dwelling has been finished.
Try to play some AoW 2 and you'll notice that production points doesn't give the problems you see. (if costs are well balanced.)
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 27, 2003 04:47 AM |
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Yes, they replenish EVERYTURN (???)
lol
Of course!
Max per turn is like, 400 (example)for the first province and it is 400 at the beggining of everyturn. Castle upgrades enable more BPs, and a misc town structure
I dont know where the impression otherwise would follow from my post.
((The only reason why BPs wouldn't be on 0, is if the hero just didnt build as much as he could.))
town structures, increasing max BPs per
A: the castle
and
B: Other castles owned (like 50 per castle but +50 for the town its built in)
but
I dont get this part
Creatures going to town for shelter?, im not sure cuz they are fighters. And they are always ready to go in the group force. They are produced in town. Cuz if there were more on the map elsewhere, you'd be fighting them on their way to your castle!
Thas another idea i think besides building pointss?
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 27, 2003 06:44 PM |
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Hmmm... Yes, you are correct is lloks like you say they replenish each turn...
BUT you seem to allow building several buildings in the SAME turn. I don't think that should be allowed at all. Kind of ruins strategy if buildings are so cheap and easily made that they can be completed in less than one turn.
You can complete one structure and start on the next one in the same turn, but beyond that I don't think it's a good idea to introduce further management of building structures.
Quote:
((The only reason why BPs wouldn't be on 0, is if the hero just didnt build as much as he could.))
Hmmm.... but Towns have building points. Certainly not something which should be allocated to a Hero. (Hero affecting BP as a governer is OK, but basic numbers have to affect each town.)
Quote:
but I dont get this part
Creatures going to town for shelter?, im not sure cuz they are fighters.
No. Creatures in towns are normal citizens, or taxpayers. Only a fraction is soldiers. You need to separate the following three categories:
- Garrison troops: Recruited creatures which player owns and pays upkeep for. They can leave the town at any time, and is not part of the population of the town.
- Trained creatures: The number of trained creatures in the town which are available for recruitment. (They are still part of population in town, so also functions as normal citizens.)
- Normal citizens: These are the guys that does all the building work, and pays taxes for your income.
A castle could give you creatures in all of these three categories, though it should very rarely be in the form of garrison troops.
In order to be called a city and give city income you must accumulate a certain amount of creatures.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 28, 2003 12:55 AM |
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Almost everything you said besides dividing ppl/creatures into 3 types I understand and agree with besides; (i say general creatures, heroes, and unknown ppl/peasents or something that have nothing to do with the army)
If you build a market place, and it costed 200 BPs, then you have 200 left to put twords another structure.
If you build a castle (forsay 700 bps) then it takes 400 the first day, and the second theres 100 left over. which you cut put twords the market place. Having 300 to start next turn.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 28, 2003 06:48 PM |
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Celfious:
Structures should take several turns to complete.
I don't see a need to make it more complicated than having a queue assigning in which order you want to build, and then the 'game' builds the structures in that order according to how many building points you have alloted to building structures. There is no need to build say 20% of 2 buildings simultaneously, and having none of them ready until 5 days alter.
There is a certain problem with this and that is that structures requires money and resources in addition to "building points". Getting notified about unsufficient money each turn can be bothersome, so requires some thought.
It's a easier for the developer and probably also for the person to play the game to only allow building one structure at a time. And since player can divide "building points" between creatures and buildings it shouldn't be a major issue to only allow one structure at a time. It depends a bit on player economy, but normally a player should not be able to afford building in every town all the time.
Heroes a category in population? Why?????
Also "peasants" and even people is a human term, and probably not appropriate for any other town. There is probably a need for separating population a bit further. I wouldn't for instance expect a Black Dragon to do be able to do work labour in town, like all the other citizens.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 28, 2003 06:57 PM |
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Where do you get this stuff from my posts? Did I mention anything about %tages? No, and besides, %tages would be a good idea if the game was more advanced but its not yet.
its not my way or the highway anyways..
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 28, 2003 07:28 PM |
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im starting to get angry with your way or the high way djive.. I dont like your
Garrison troops: - Trained creatures: - Normal citizens:
So I said, well how about this?
And this isnt a population catigory did I say it was? Its catagory of llife in general. and its not needed cuz its the way HOMM LIfe is
You have..
1 Heroes
2 Creatures
3 Unrelated peasentry (livers/workers) Whatever you want to call them. (the game could actualy advance like-a fort can hold & feed 300 people, a castle can hold & feed 5000 but thats thick development to think about)
So I find it rather amusing that you would say no to that since thats already how it is
Your getting really thick with the black dragon example.. The games not advanced enough for that but black dragons titans, ect can do alot more than peasents but they arent the ones that stay around the castle to work , they are used for defence/battles as of now and I dont see the game advancing to a level where things are realistic
The peasents work in numbers and they are more able to do technical thngs than the strongest creature in the game, but black dragons sure can do lifting (baskets) and burning. Generaly, they serve in the military, and fortunately have the luxury of not having to bust their ***. (for now, wait for the future gaming)
and pls, if you disagree with anything else I say make sure you know what I said.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 28, 2003 10:18 PM |
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Edited By: Djive on 28 Oct 2003
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In HoMMM towns so far the town have only creatures, plus you can recuit heroes, though the latter (depending on which HoMM you play) is associated to the Tavern and not to the Town.
You don't have "unrelated peasantry", simply because there is no number of peasants visible on the town screens.
I don't see why you dislike my division. The garrison troops have always existed. They're troops recruited by the player (from this or another town). The recruitable creatures have also always existed.
So all that remains is adding a number of workers that do all the work and other tasks in town. These together with the unrectuited creatures (who can work) makes up the population of the town.
It's not like "town can hold ...". It's like "workers/population can build." because that's what you use them for. That's their purpose in the game, to be a factor in deciding how many building points you have.
You don't necessarily get more building points because you have a castle (though it could give this or other benefits). But you get building points directly from the working population.
On the black dragon. Yeah... They could do a lot... But would they ever want to? A dragon can't build a house because it's hands and feet are not suited to the task. Sure they might be things a black Dragon to do, but the only reason for keeping such a creature in town is for protection and discouraging attackers.
Sure, if you want to keep it simple then you can include all animals in population, even the ones that are very different.
Oh and I didn't use the word "disagree" at all in my post. I just stated my opinion.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 28, 2003 10:29 PM |
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Oh it's not like that? OK
its like the way you say then.
and by the way! There are other things in homm than creatures and heroes.
thosee things are INFACT unrelated peasentry
If you say there are not I will laugh in disgust because literaly, there is something other than creatures and heroes that live in the towns.
and
Quote:
It's not like "town can hold ...". It's like "workers/population can build." because that's what you use them for
Town can hold/feed.. ppl have to work they dont just build. Keeping it at "Castle enables more people", and town structure "farm", also enables more ppl to live there. They live, they work they eat. No need mixing in complications. BP isnt equivalent to bodies. BPs are added from structures.
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draco
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 28, 2003 10:42 PM |
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from what i can tell you want Homm to become alot like Lords of the Realm.
i cant say that would be a bad thing cause i loved that old game (at least i think it was lords of the realm) where you can controle what your peasants can do. there tasks could be
a) build weapons/armor
b) build your castle
c) work in the mines
d) plow fields
e) something else i dont quite remember
and you would use your peasants for your army as well.(using the swords/shields you built with a)
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted October 29, 2003 06:41 PM |
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Quote:
Sir Stiven:
Why do you think you'll make Behemoths easily? And just WHEN do you think a Behemoth will eventually become available? I'd say the likely result is that either the designers makes behemoths weaker and available sooner, or they make them as strong as dragons and they will become available at the same time.
Resources (crystals and so on) are a thing which aren't all that necessary to the game. They could even be excluded leaving you with only Gold and Mana.
Also do notice, you CAN'T start on a new building which has a prerequisite which you are building on. Also, you CAN'T train/produce Behemoths until after the dwelling has been finished.
Try to play some AoW 2 and you'll notice that production points doesn't give the problems you see. (if costs are well balanced.)
@Djive:
First i dont think you understood me, i used heroes3 as an example of why this building point system wouldnt work since it will unbalance things.
As for the rest of things...im playing the heroes series not AoW2. I want heroes to keep being heroes, not a mix of heroes with AoW2 or civilizations or whatever game.
Removing things like resources and add up building points and time for buildings to be finished and such will remove the core behind heroes. The core thats been there since its first games.
If you want a game like the one you talk about i would advice you to play the civilization series instead and not mess up the heroes series
Dont get me wrong, the heroes series could use some new ideas and such which will IMO just improve the game. But removing its core (find resources and build your army up) will not.
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