|
| Thread: Creatures have Action Penalties instead of a turn | |
|
Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
|
posted November 08, 2003 11:54 PM |
|
|
Creatures have Action Penalties instead of a turn
APC-Action penalty cost.
Perhaps inspired by marelts game.
This is how the movement & attacking could be in battle.
When its a creatures turn-
His movement zone flashes.
A translucent replica of him is under the mouse.
On the top right corner of the screen there are 2 numbers.
#-How many APs you have-
#-How many APs you will have if you left click-
The APC is determined by creature speed, terrain, and actions. (movement and attacking) Remaining APs can be used to move a little but they can or can not be used for more attack. If it costs pikemen 10 to attack, say after movement and 1 attack, they have 3 aps left. Theres aot of thigs that can be done to the remainder but I think best is just add it to the next turn & or enable the creature to start earlier in the next round. Max AP is 150% without modifiers.
(generaly, the creature with highest speed will have the most APs so usualy the creature with the highest APs will go first. Perhaps APs are the determining factor of who goes first.)
This enables more than 1 attack for creatures that arent spending time moving.
For archers, I say reduce damage, and give them 3 or 4 attacks. But if they move they get like 2 or 1 attacks.
For magic.
Level 1 spells on basic 100% cost-no reduction to APC
Level 1 spells on advanced 80% cost (100% for level 2)
" 1 " " Expert 60% (80%cost for level 2 spells 100% cost for level 3 spells.)
Generaly, big level spells will be preset that a hero cant cast glorious combinations. They would however, be able to cast 2 or more magic missles if they have GMastery. Primarily what this dose, is enables mages to move, then cast when they are higher leveled & sometimes cast twice
Now we need a Wub or calculicit major to figure out Which creatures get how much AP.. or the entire system from scratch. By awnsering such questions as What is AP determined by? (there are words i like, str, agility, speed, ) Strength determines the APC of attacking & terrain? Where speed determines movement and attack cost.
When you run to zero after left clicking its the next units turn.
When theres remaining points, you double click the last action, double click a no action (double clicking on the creatures feet signifying stay there) or click done button near AP. Then remaining APs are with the creature at the beggining of the next round.
____________
What are you up to
|
|
Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
|
|
posted November 09, 2003 12:13 AM |
|
|
IMO this will add to many dimensions to the battlefield so it will just be messed up because of so much to keep in mind.
Also this will make battles way to easy when you have gotten higher lvl units since you would be able to attack and then go back to your side again... kind of like a might style of hit&run.
My biggest problem with it though is that it seems to turn battles more RTS instead of doing your move each battleround and then wait for the next. I like the simple but yet so tactical way of fighting as atleast heroes 3 had.
|
|
Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
|
|
posted November 09, 2003 12:35 AM |
|
|
first thing.. perhaps Forget the translucent replica I kind of like the idea of the attack happening when I left click
Quote:
IMO this will add to many dimensions to the battlefield so it will just be messed up because of so much to keep in mind.
This is a wish for a different type of game. Evolution brings new things and HOMM {is good game while at the same time} a primative scrap pile of tools.
Quote:
this will make battles way to easy when you have gotten higher lvl units since you would be able to attack and then go back to your side again... kind of like a might style of hit&run.
The might can get through terrain where as, the speed can dominate on plainland.
Overall, each side gets about the same # of attacks.
Usualy about 1 attack with Basic movement. But 2 with only a step or 2 taken.
If a fast opponent emerges close enough to beable to swing in and attack once, and run away fast enough while never standing close enough for the slow unit to get a hit in.. Then its the slowest vs the fastest. The slow, should retreat so the only way the fast can strike, is if it is close enough to be hit before or after.
In addition Dont forget there is a retaliation.
Quote:
My biggest problem with it though is that it seems to turn battles more RTS instead of doing your move each battleround and then wait for the next. I like the simple but yet so tactical way of fighting as atleast heroes 3 had.
A pikeman charging down the battle field
A pikeman standing still
1 attack.
Simplicity in all its nature.
____________
What are you up to
|
|
Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
|
|
posted November 09, 2003 07:18 PM |
|
|
Evolution might be evolution but heroes series is turnbased...not RTS. And since its a quite successful turn based game serie i dont think they wanna change it and compete with the likes of warcraft and such.
And the might h&r doesnt have to be fastest vs slowest. Just as long as a generally fast unit fights a slow one this will happend. Fighting vs the map will come embarassing easy since only have to calculate one kind of opponent units.
I thought id explain this one alittle closer:
Lets say you got 12 fast great fast units and fight an opponent stack, if you can kill at first strike then there will be no retaliation. And if the opponent stack will survive some hits and therefor be able to retaliate what you do is you bring some lesser troops..can be worst unit of the game as long as they got more APC then opponent. Then what you do is that you attack with these lesser troops to "take out" retaliation. Say you got your powerstack of 12 good units.. then you fill your other slots with one crap but fast unit in each. Let them take out retal each round and attack with powerstack and fly back. NM how strong opponent side is they will be set under attack for 6 "free" turns when they can do nothing as the 12 unit powerstack always will flee to "safe ground". And when done they problably as good as dead and you have suffered no real losses at all.
And within creature specialities there is always they who got "no retaliation" spec. Not to mention getting first strike is always vital if same amount of creatures and stats. Because your first strike will kill a part of opponents stack and therefor his attack will hurt less.
Combat speed already is really important as things are now. By making it your way it will have even bigger influence and you can easily predict tactics which only consists of getting as fast units as possible and then rush/clear map.
"A pikeman charging down the battle field
A pikeman standing still
1 attack.
Simplicity in all its nature."
..if something is working smoothly, dont try and "fix" it.
|
|
Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
|
|
posted November 09, 2003 10:29 PM |
|
|
The idea of splitting attacks and retaliations into several in one round actually makes it a lot less beneficial to have sacrifice stacks since they will no longer soak the retaliation for a full round. (Since each creature has several retaliations.)
Heroes 3 and Heroes 4 both works very badly here. Heroes 2 works better due to the absence of the wait button in that game. (That is your fastest units must either attack or forfeit their turn, you can't wait for your peasants to close in and take the retaliation, because you're champion will not get a turn in the same round again.)
A few notes:
- It's probably too powerful to be able to cast several spells per turn.
- Movement before attack is an option and reduces # of attacks made. (depending on distance travelled.)
- Retreating after an Attack is probably not a good idea, but if you allow this then Defender should get one free Strike (which costs 0 ACP).
- Also at any time if you try ro move away from an adjacient unit, that unit gets a free strike.
The strength of a free strike can be debated. Perhaps it should be 1/3, 1/2 or 2/3 of normal damage.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
|
|
Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
|
|
posted November 09, 2003 11:03 PM |
|
|
|
huh? why would each creature has several retaliations?
|
|
Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
|
|
posted November 10, 2003 01:33 AM |
|
|
If creatures get more attacks per round, then they also get more retaliations, though normal retaliations should also cost ACP. (Alternatively, you remove the retaliation all together. Keeping it at one is probably the worst option.)
What is limited is a creature's total number of actions per round.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
|
|
Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
|
|
posted November 10, 2003 06:21 AM |
|
|
When I designed this system, it was made for a tabletop RPG. I actually think that they use this in M&M, but I doubt that it is a good idea for a turn-based strategy game like HoMM. The point is that the speed statistic, which already is quite powerfull, would then become uber-powerfull, because a creature that is twice as fast would also become twice as good.
It also means that when there is one slow and one fast army on the battlefield, then the fast army would always win, because the slow army would not be able to act against them. A bit of the problem with the one harpy and the thousand hydra's (given enough time, the harpy would win).
____________
Perception is everything.
|
|
Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
|
|
posted November 10, 2003 07:02 AM |
|
|
Twaz a game called dark wizard.
A turnbased warcraft, with no building, food requirements, or recruiting during battle.
A large final fantasy tactics type of battle plane.
They, only got 1 attack too...
I think in most games its like this because there is complications in combining RTS and TBS. It's difficult thought process to even get the best possible for the moderntime. I belive in the future there will be more styles of games. And this type of thing will be inside one of the major titles of its time.
____________
What are you up to
|
|
Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
|
|
posted November 10, 2003 05:33 PM |
|
|
Quote:
If creatures get more attacks per round, then they also get more retaliations, though normal retaliations should also cost ACP. (Alternatively, you remove the retaliation all together. Keeping it at one is probably the worst option.)
What is limited is a creature's total number of actions per round.
Is still easy to counter, just send weak units to take enough retaliations from enemy stack to remove enough ACP not to reach you with his attacks or attack the stack enough so he cant counter your main units attack.
|
|
Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
|
|
posted November 10, 2003 06:52 PM |
|
|
It would be nice if you tried to see some possibilities instead of saying it's no good.
Let's take a modified action points system as an example:
Movement costs 1 ACP per hex travelled.
Attacking costs a third of the creature's base ACP.
Defending costs a fourth of the creature's base ACP.
Casting a spell costs 2 two thirds of the creature's base ACP.
Then consider the consequences if say X Angels and six single stacks of Griffin attacks 1 stack of X "slow" Behemoth.
In heroes 3, assuming no movement spells are cast the player with the angels should have no real problems in exploiting the "slow" Behemoth to the full. The Behemoth will kill 1 Griffin per round, but that's all. The Behemoth won't get to retaliate aginst the Angels attack until all the sac stacks are gone.
In heroes 4, it's pretty much the same.
With ACP, the Behemoth will kill four stacks of the sac creatures in the first round. In the second round, it will kill the remaining two and still have enough power to retaliate twice against the Angels' attack.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
|
|
Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
|
|
posted November 10, 2003 07:05 PM |
|
|
well its hard to see the possibilities in something you dont like 
I prefer the current system as stated, is kind of like a more complicated version of chess.
I like this kinda simple way of fighting, it makes for good thinking. IMO they have found a nice balance when it comes to the battling part.
Other things should be thought upon instead IMO, like bringing back heroes specialities. Removing heroes from combat. Add new banks and other locations to hit. Landscape improvements like the ones hydra mentioned.
But im just saying my opinions of the ideas, some i like and some i dont. Thats kinda logical to me, even if i understand where you coming from aswell as a mod and want to boost discussion interest here
|
|
RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
|
|
posted November 10, 2003 08:42 PM |
|
|
I like this idea, but I would like to add a little bit to the idea.
The troop stack with the most battle action points gets to go first. This happens every turn. Every turn a troop gets a bonus to their battle action points. This means that creatures that are go first in this game will regenerate action points more quickly and will go more often. Troops will not be able to more than one action each turn. A turn can be designated a moving a certain number of squares or an attack. There is a maximum amount of battle-action points that can be acquired during a turn.
To move and attack at once will require two turns. If you can move across the battlefield with your stack of troops and still have more battle action points(BAP's) then you can move and attack before your opponent can respond.
Let's say for example it costs 3 points to move one square and 15 points to attack. You may spend up to 15 BAP's per turn. Defending costs 5 movement points. Now if you want, you may move 3 movement points and defend.
You have pikeman that regenerates 2 points every turn on your side fighting against wood elves. The wood elves attack, you move your pikeman 5 squares. Now both creatures don't have enough BAP's to do anything. Now you must impliment the option of waiting. Waiting does not advance the turn and passes the option for an action to the creature with the next highest amount of stored BAP's.
You may choose to wait whenever you desire. I really think this would be a great new strategy to master for our future HOMM games.
I really like this idea. Battle-action points.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.
____________
Go Red Sox!
|
|
|
|
