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regnus_khan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
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posted December 14, 2003 10:44 AM |
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Spell Research
Spell Research
I don’t mean to bother you with my threads, but I actually want to say what I’ve been creating for a long time.
Another idea of mine was spell researches. I don’t know, but I think that not far from now there was a thread which was very similar to this one. I thought that UbiSoft could mix some things.
I’ve read RedSoxFan3 article about building points, Djive’s article about Reputation and afterwards, I made a conclusion that not only town building points or Djive’s reputation are needed, but also, spell research points.
How do you collect research points?
You must have the magic hero of the town to research spells. The process supposes to go this way:
at first, you must buy mage tower (it should be named differently in all the towns) where you could research spells.
Then, there would be a resource collected after battles. It should be called easily: research points.
It should be collected this way:
winning a battle: +2 research points
draw in a battle: +1 research point
flee from a battle: -4 research points
surrender from a battle: -2 research points
finding an artifact: +1 research point
finding a relic: +3 research points
achieved level 5: +3 research points
achieved level 10: +4 research points
achieved level 20: +6 research points
Research points are calculated, so it means if you have two magic heroes their collected points are calculated.
How do you research a spell? Where to go?
So, to research a spell, you must go to the mage tower. There would be a table of contents. Table looks something like that
_________________________________________________________________________________
I Lev.: | xxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
II Lev.: | xxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxx
III Lev.: | xxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
IV Lev.: | xxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxx
V Lev.: | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
_________________________________________________________________________________
There will be a variety of spells you can research. But there would be some rules that you must know:
to research a first level spell +2, second level +3, third level +5, fourth level +8, fifth level +12.
to research a highest level spell you must research at least one spell from each of the levels.
to learn how to use the spell you must have the corresponding skill.
What differences there are between towns
Some towns have more levels, some - less. Every town has its own spell effects, pictures, textures. For example, there’s something about the Castle: Life Town:
_________________________________________________________________________________
I Lev.: | Exorcism | xxxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
II Lev.: | xxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxx
III Lev.: | xxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
IV Lev.: | xxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxx
V Lev.: | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
_________________________________________________________________________________
To view the spell, just press on it. Then a table will appear:
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Spell Name: | Exorcism
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Spell Picture: | |__________|
Spell Cost: | Cost: 2 spell points
Spell Effect: | Removes all negative spell effects from a single target.
Spell Texture: | “… A blinding flash came out… It looked that the sky opened… I felt very sick… But
suddenly hand of god had appeared and took all the evil things around me… after
a moment I felt reborn…”
RESEARCH: YES NO
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That’s all with this. If you want, to ask questions - ask. I’ll try to answer.
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted December 14, 2003 06:56 PM |
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Sounds reasonable.
My suggestion: time-based research
there should be 2 ways to research:
directed research and blind research
You can't research spells without having a guild of sufficiently high level.
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Blind research is random - it takes fixed amount of turns to research a spell.
level1 spell - 1 day/spell
level2 - 2 days
level3 - 3 days
level4 - 4 days
level5 - 5 days
It's pure luck, you have no control over what spell is going to be unlocked.
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Directed research - allows you to search for certain spell.
level1 spell - 2 days/spell
level2 - 4 days/spell
level3 - 6 days/spell
level4 - 8 days/spell
level5 - 10 days/spell
Directed research isn't perfect: it has 50% chance of providing choosen spell. If you're unlucky (another 50%), it provides random spell instead.
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regnus_khan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
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posted December 14, 2003 07:10 PM |
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I do agree with you. Really. It sounds good.
If UbiSoft could mix these two ideas, there would be one, enormous plus in the game.
Thanks,for your idea, B0rsuk.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 15, 2003 12:49 AM |
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One bad thing about being able to research almost ANY spell is that it puts much higher requirements on balance or all players will pick the same spells each time, and never bother with the ones that are not so useful.
Borsuk's idea of increasing research if you select a certain spell has some merits, but the restriction this implies is that every spell of a certain level has to cost exactly the same amount of research points. (Which makes balancing more difficult since one of the variables designers have for balancing becomes fixed.)
Did you mean to assign a certain Hero to a particular town for accumulating Research points? (The way Governer works with Nobility skill in H4.)
If not, then you have a major problem because there is normally no connection between your towns and your heroes, and you can't require the Hero to stay in town for playability reasons.
I don't think it's logical to give Research points for battles and similar. What can be considered are:
- A new Resource obtainable on the adventure map. (You then need to select a town which will get the Research points.)
- Towns should give some Research points by itself, depending on level of Mage Guild build, or possibly depending on the size of the town.
- Artifacts carried by the Researching Hero.
- Hero skills. I think this can come into effect in two ways:
* Only spells the Hero can cast can be researched.
* The more magic powers the hero has, the more Research points the Hero contributes with.
Basic XXXX Magic: Can give 1 Research point/day, Advanced 2 points, and so on.
I fail to see why a might based level 20 hero should give just as many magical research points as a hero who have only magic based skills. So this should NOT be level based but skill based.
Give the might hero some "might related" advantage instead. (And this advantae we don't need to detail here.)
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted December 15, 2003 01:38 PM |
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As Djive says...
a system like this wouldnt work. Because you would basically always get the same basic spells, and a few extra spells depending on game situation (map size, opponent town, guards etc). The game would be to fixed when it comes to spells and some spells never would get used at all.
What is good about the magic system when its random is that you always have to adapt to it. Sure sometimes you can build 3-4 mage guilds and still you dont find that slow spell to your expert earth magic but thats life. And the lvl 4-5spell(s) you get in your guild often set ups the tactic of yours aswell. With an early resurrection you can break early and still suffer small losses while getting Town portal can make you own the map better.
Thing is, its something you got to adapt to.. not always go for the same spells and then learn exactly how to maximize the advantage for it.
Also the suggested way of yours to gain research points makes no sense, it atleast should me magic related. I dont see how getting some sea relic artifact should increase your research on getting a spell.
My idea though on a simplier way on this would be to add a location on game map where you can get a wizard/witch to research a spell out from a limited choice (example: 3 lvl 1 spells, 2 lvl 2 spells, 1 lvl 3 spell) for a fixed amount of gold and then after a couple of days (or right away) you can get that spell.
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted December 15, 2003 02:32 PM |
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Quote:
Borsuk's idea of increasing research if you select a certain spell has some merits, but the restriction this implies is that every spell of a certain level has to cost exactly the same amount of research points. (Which makes balancing more difficult since one of the variables designers have for balancing becomes fixed.)
I suggest no research points, all would be time-b(i)ased.
The numbers can be slighty different for different spells, you know. They are there just for example.
Double requirements for directed research + chance of failure (random spell given instead) are there exactly to prevent abusing same spells over and over.
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fregglez
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 15, 2003 06:07 PM |
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I actually liked the spell system of Homm 4, it was always exciting to see which spells you got, and you had to cope with them, even if you got "bad" spells. When you diden't got the spell you wanted, you were encouraged to seek out the spell shrines on the world map and hope you found your spell there. The Homm 4 system is also a quicker way of researching spells, and in multiplayer thats a good thing. So the spell system shoulden't be changed in my opinion.
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Sometimes I think I could burn.
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consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 15, 2003 06:50 PM |
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You guys are really on to something!
Let's continue this debate. You guys understand some excellent characteristics about mages and spellcasting.
What is the largest concern involving spells pertaining to Heroes V?
Concern #1: Spell redundancy.(same spells used over and over while ignoring others)
Concern #2: Powerful game-altering spells too early in the game.
Concern #3: unfair for might-class of heroes causing game-imbalance.
Ok let's first review what has been discussed/brought up through some excellent points made by Regnus Khan, Borsuk, and Djive.
Regnus_Khan has a most excellent idea which I think is directed at trying to increase complexity for spell use. I think he feels that obtaining spells was too easy in HeroesIII. I agree. Regnus_Khan your suggestion is fantastic. Let's change the name from 'spell points' to 'spell components'.(being that which is needed to cast a spell) Your idea that suggests the delivering of a spell incantation was great too.(i.e. the words a wizard says to invoke the spell powers)
Borsuk added to your idea a most excellent requirement. He suggested that a spell be randomly researched per level AND that they be time based(in other words you can't do it all in one day). This really does help the balance.
Djive your concern to the might-class of heroes is a valid one. Good observation to keep game balance at the top of the priority list. What is the advantage of might heroes if the mages will have such advantageous spells? The answer is time. Borsuk realized it right away by adding the requirement of time to spell research. This has historically been the might advantage. Spells should take a long time to research and specialize in while might simply get's to muscle its way through battles. The key to a might hero is hitting a spell researcher early in the game.
Ok so my only suggestion to the fantastic idea was:
1. Change the name to 'spell components'.
2. agree with Regnus_khan's ideas.
3. agree with borsuk's requirements.
4. agree with Djive's concern for game balance and remind Djive that the might advantage = time.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted December 17, 2003 08:32 AM |
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hm.. make it so that you build the mage guild and get the table of contents of spells in that mage guild (like in previous homms). when your hero wants to learn a spell he must spend
100 / (hero's knowledge or wisdom or something like that)
days at the mage guild.
the research points for sucessful battles.. huh? how would those things be connected? like you have to be some important sucessful general to be tought a spell at a mage guild?
maybe i didn't really understand the idea. you want spells to be researchable with more control over what you get?
like in civ you start to research the wheel.. imho when you know that what you need is a wheel, i think you more or less already have it. with spells it might be a little different, so researching might be more appropriate, but the 'researching the wheel' feeling is still present imho. not that getting random spells is any better.
hero having to spend time staying in a mage guild to learn a spell might be more reasonable, but do we really want it? the magical spell book system wasn't that bad imho. in faily tales it was often that anyone could cast a spell if he/she just followed the secret instructions, not like some new age mental power thing.
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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regnus_khan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
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posted December 17, 2003 07:00 PM |
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i dunno if spell research points could be got by winning a battle. i say that's only a suggestion, so have it your way.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.
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