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| Thread: Artificial Intelligence |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Cheesus
Known Hero
The Untouchable
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posted July 12, 2001 04:56 PM |
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Artificial Intelligence
The comp AI in Heroes 3 is crap. Hereīs why:
- The comp doesnīt build every turn no matter how much money/recourses he has
- The comp uses tactics that donīt make any sense (most of the time)
- Setting of difficulty is limited to the amount of resources the comp gets (and how much you get)
- At hard the comp plays at best but still not good
- The comp uses several mains and keeps the same creatures on the same hero
These points added together makes single player games very unattractive. I am sure there are more points, but these are most important. I never play single player games anymore (VERY rarely a campaign i like).
What i would like to see in Homm 4 is a setting of AI wich would make me enjoy single player games MUCH more! Hereīs the idea:
5 settings of difficulty (as it is now), and each has 5 extra settings
Every setting is for setting the comp AI and next to that you can set the amount of resources every player will get.
1. much more resources then the comp
2. more resources then the comp
3. equal amount of resources
4. less resources then the comp
5. start without resources and the comp gets lots.
These are the extra settings, here are the normal settings:
- Novice: comp plays poorly (for players new to turn based gaming)
- Easy: Comp plays average (for players that are used to turn-based gaming but new to homm)
- Medium: Comp plays fairly well (for players used to homm3 but new to homm4)
- Hard: Comp plays good (for players that are used to homm4)
- Expert: Comp plays awesome (for expert players of homm4)
Well this is my idea on how the difficulty setting should be. I guess this thread should be called that way, but that doesnīt sound very interesting 
Let me know your thought.
oh oh, after i posted this thread i noticed i posted it in the wrong forum  can somebody please move this one to the heroes 4 altar of wishes? I would apreciate it.
Btw, is it possible for me to move it myself?
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Win or lose, it doesn't matter. The way it happens is what is important
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rogue
Promising
Famous Hero
Prosecutors Will Be Shoplifted
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posted July 12, 2001 07:48 PM |
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I heard the Heroes III AI was actually toned down, because in testing, it was almost impossible to beat.
I don't know if that's true or not.
Anyway, AI is a very difficult thing to program, so I'd have to say that the programmer accomplished an incredible task. It's not perfect, but it's better than most people could do.
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Answers to Everything
http://help.paulinetown.com
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 12, 2001 08:18 PM |
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But on the other side, i know that HOMM3 AI uses little bit of cheating - like it knows where to find the grail or such (he opens very litle obelisks) and he already knows. But I may be wrong.
And the more and more game gets complicated, the more AI gets harder to write. That's why it's not so bad to have less creatures and upgrades. Otherwise AI can't choose well which is good - no wonder why when you go to computer town - you'll never see some of the BUILDINGS created (like Mana Well in Dungeon) or some upgrades made - it's just that AI weights that there is no need.
At the begining computer AI chooses wheter computer player to be WARRIOR, BUILDER or EXPLORER - but i didn't notice changing this through out the game. These three states forms different type of thinking - probably BUILDER - just defend his town and don't go so much around (And it's very easy to get his mines - computer is afraid to take them back if he's a builder). Warrior is more offensive i think, and explorer - well the name says it. It actually may be good idea map-makers to be able to select in map this type of playing (or maybe there is - i just can't remmember such thing).
So simplifying the game is not so bad at the end - NWC can make better AI if it's more simplified.
Rouge: I hope they don't decrease the AI level in HOMM4 - i always beat computer in impossible, and I don't like so much playing multiplayer (except hotseats). But at least they should not use cheating.
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guanw88
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 12, 2001 11:34 PM |
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cheesus:
i agree that there are many different ways to exploit the AI in homm3, but nwc has spent way too much time making the AI formidable in homm3-blade. that thing is so hard to beat.
speaking of which, can anyone help me beat any campaign in homm3-blade? i got to the second to last scenario in the dragon blood campaign and the second scenario in dragon slayer, but i haven''t been able to go any further.
help would be greatly appreciated.
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 13, 2001 09:43 AM |
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Computers cheat also in tactics phase.. like moving two-hex wide creatures one over the limit.
I totally agree with this thread i should be more difficult.
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Cheesus
Known Hero
The Untouchable
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posted July 13, 2001 12:42 PM |
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AB campaigns
Quote:
cheesus:
i agree that there are many different ways to exploit the AI in homm3, but nwc has spent way too much time making the AI formidable in homm3-blade. that thing is so hard to beat.
speaking of which, can anyone help me beat any campaign in homm3-blade? i got to the second to last scenario in the dragon blood campaign and the second scenario in dragon slayer, but i haven''t been able to go any further.
help would be greatly appreciated.
I have ROE, AB and SOD exp. packs of homm3.
I donīt know why you are having trouble with AB campaigns if youīre not having them with ROE. I haventīt had any trouble with ROE or AB campaigns. There isnīt any greater difficulty in AB if you ask me.
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Win or lose, it doesn't matter. The way it happens is what is important
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 13, 2001 03:41 PM |
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The "simplier" the game, the "better" the AI.
For the chess game, AI can even beat the world champion:
"Deep Blue" beat Karsbalov (nevermind the spelling  ) several yrs ago.
For homm, too much graphics and other stuff for AI to think about and it just can't do it. 
If you really want challenging AI, go for player-made maps. You would like it.
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Cheesus
Known Hero
The Untouchable
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posted July 13, 2001 04:05 PM |
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LOL
You think i havenīt played player made maps?? LOL
I have made maps that are supposed to be hard. Hereīs what i did.
i gave the comp a starting hero lvl 10, i edited all the secundary skills so he would be great and gave him good spells.
When he would be lvl 17 (wich takes the comp about 4 weeks) i had a treat for him, he could enter an area wich gave him a lot of creatures.
I did a lot of things to make it as hard as possible for me to win. I had to edit it a LOT of times to balance it perfectly and give me a chance to win, but make it just as possible for the comp to win. And guess what? I got killed one time and won the other!!!! 50% - 50% all the time.
But was this fun? Was this what i was looking for? NO!
The comp still uses stupid tactics, still does not gain levels fast, still does not build. The comp was still useless! The only thing making the comp strong were the things i gave him. He had 2x the creatures i had but was still able to get murdered because he uses stupid tactics. Now i was more looking for something equal to my strenght and be able to LEARN something from the comp but that would be asking to much. I know for a real challenge i can go online, but i would also like to play the comp and have fun without slaughtering him. It would be nice to see the comp totally outrank me.
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Win or lose, it doesn't matter. The way it happens is what is important
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rogue
Promising
Famous Hero
Prosecutors Will Be Shoplifted
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posted July 13, 2001 07:52 PM |
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I am pretty sure it doesn't cheat, it's just in people's imagination.
as for the grail thing... It hink it's because a computer can exactly compare one puzzle piece to the whole map, while humans aren't computer processors, so we have to see more before it will look familiar.
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Answers to Everything
http://help.paulinetown.com
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 13, 2001 09:50 PM |
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Oh, Cheesus, I got you wrong, sorry.
If you want that kind of challenging AI, I guess chess (even play with computer) would be good.
As for the turn-base strategic games, I find Fantasy General series also quite challenging.
As for homm, AI is challenging.............for the 1st month you buy it only.
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titan
Known Hero
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posted July 17, 2001 04:20 AM |
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Quote:
But on the other side, i know that HOMM3 AI uses little bit of cheating - like it knows where to find the grail or such (he opens very litle obelisks) and he already knows. But I may be wrong.
i sometimes also can find the grail with very little obelisks because many times i found the grail with just finding 1 obelisks
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 If we ever will time travel in the future . Why haven't people from the future visited us yet
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Paradigm
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 17, 2001 09:32 AM |
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I think that we should be able to upgrade the AI if we get to good for the basic AI.
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Provenire of the Shift!
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Excruciation
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 04, 2010 08:13 PM |
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Well... I really have no idea if anyone will read this but anyway
The AI in Heroes3 depends on too many variables for a human to create a functional, advanced AI. The job is still good.
As with Hard - Expert - Impossible, the AI difficulty is the same on all these 3 difficulties, the only thing that is different are the starting resources of human players. 15kg, 10 O+W, 7M/S/C/G, about half on Expert and none at all on impossible.
The computer player, however, always start with an equal amount of resources, that is, as much as a human player starts with at Hard difficulty. I guess this is because the AI would need too much alteration the difficulties inbetween if they would've started with different amounts in the different difficulties
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 04, 2010 08:41 PM |
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That was awesome!
I was reading through the first post, not noticing the date, when the guy suddenly started asking for stuff to be included in Heroes IV!
Anyway, if possible, I'd suggest to in build a learning mechanism to the computer, pretty basic actually, but probably hard to program.
Give it some guidance through basic tactics, then let it play through games on fixed maps, for each game, let the computer analyse mistakes by letting the player come with suggestion [pointing out where the probable mistakes were and what to do otherwise] and then go through playing again.
Use this trial and error with all players who have the games and who can upload information.
Bad information will lead to less success and more failure, so the computer can weight upon the information by itself.
When a sufficient amount of knowledge have been gained, the computer can probably by itself learn how to play random maps as well, now probably without much help from the players.
In general, the computer will probably be able to advance without the help from the players, but it'd just be a much slower process and one should always remember, using this form of learning, the computer can never get better than the best player of the world [because it'll fix its gameplay towards the hardest possible challenge through trial and error like the way all of us learn].
An analogi, would be in chess, if the computer learned how in general to beat another computer [from now on known as X]on easy level. The methods used may actually, objectively, be errors, but against X on easy it'll have just as high a probability of success as non erroring moves, because X makes the same types of mistakes on easy level. However playing X on hard level, the computer [that learns] would adapt and throw away old, earlier efficiet, but erroring techniques.
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Living time backwards
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 04, 2010 09:51 PM |
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Quote:
As with Hard - Expert - Impossible, the AI difficulty is the same on all these 3 difficulties, the only thing that is different are the starting resources of human players.
Not true
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 04, 2010 10:27 PM |
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I thought it to be the case as well, what's the difference exactly?
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Living time backwards
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pdesbois
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 05, 2010 01:10 AM |
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I built a few maps in the past and actually had a tough time playing x comp at impossibble lvl... i dont know if it was because i started with 0 stuff, though.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 05, 2010 09:17 AM |
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Edited by angelito at 09:24, 05 May 2010.
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Quote:
I thought it to be the case as well, what's the difference exactly?
There are many things different. Starting from the number of heroes the AI will buy, up to when it starts to dig for the grail and of course AI plays smarter in a battle when playing 200% instead of 130% or 160%.
An easy example would be my "1 angel vs 250 maggogs" fight which I posted in this thread (to the very bottom of that page). This is on 130% (hard), try it on 200% (impossible) and you will see the difference
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Excruciation
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 06, 2010 01:23 AM |
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My bad then, I just assumed that was the case just from reading the difficulty description, where 'The best of its ability' reoccurs in Hard/Expert/Impossible.
So now I can (to whatever use) hassle my friend with the pride of beating a tougher CP opponent than him, yay!
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Karell
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 12, 2012 06:46 PM |
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Hi all,
I'm new here and love to play H3. Sometimes playing H4 but I guess I favor H3.
Yeah, the fact the game describes the difficulty setting inaccurate made me play it on Hard for years. Equal settings you know? But it's not like that. The AI is "smarter" at Impossible.
I know this is an older game and that my questions are probably asked before, but i searched for answers but couldn't find any.
My questions are:
1- On impossible setting, how much extra bonus resources/gold does the AI get per day/week/month. And how much does he get per day for 1 ore/wood mine, 1 crystal/gem/mercury/sulfur mine or 1 gold mine.
2- Does the AI have free structures, and only need to pay for creatures?
You know, it would be nice to know the enemy, so to speak.
Today I played impossible with an CP ally and this is what happened. In the 3rd week it started to give me a bunch of gold en some resources I really needed, even when it was building up his 2 starting towns + 1 conquered town and bought all the creatures and 3 extra heroes filled with ballistae and ammo carts. (It had 2 crystal/wood/ore mines and 1 of each other type in the 2nd week.) In the 4th week (or 5th) it had build a 4th level mage guild in the conquered town + his 2 starting town's Cyclops dwellings and 2 Behemoth lairs with 1 upgraded! I did gave it crystal and other resources several times but not THAT much.
Thx in advance for any replies. Ciao!
ps. The map was a customized "Free for All" with 4 teams of 2 allies and some other changes.
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