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Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
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posted March 09, 2004 03:41 AM |
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The Semi-town
This idea, reposted from the Heroes Round Table (17 Jan, 2004) and put in a seperate thread, as requested.
I wonder what reaction I will receive here.
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I think I mentioned this idea before, but it never got much attention. The idea of the semi-town was based on the discussions about the aquatic town. While I remain confident that the aquatic town cannot function as a real town or an alignment on it's own, it would indeed be sad if we let all the potention in that direction go to waste.
Hence, the idea of the Semi-town.
The Semi-town is not a town or an alignment, but it has a lot of characteristics of a town. For example you should be a town interface when entering a semi-town. It is not possible to start a game as a semi-town, and there are no usual heroes aligned to the semi-towns, although there could be a few neutral or quest heroes with that alignment.
The semi-town can be build as an ordinary town and can have a garrison. In that aspect, think of it as a creature dwelling with defenses. A few fundemental differences between towns and semi-towns are:
- You cannot hire heroes in a semi-town.
- The semi-town has no town hall, although there could be other money-producing structures.
- The defenses have no upgrades, like a castle.
- The semi-town has a smaller number of creatures, which do not correspond to normal creature levels.
- Semi-towns have no magic or mage guilds.
- (If I had it my way with the system), semi-towns cannot be used for trade routes.
However, the buildings that you can build are possible resource-producing buildings and buildings that boost statistics of visiting heroes.
So, the mapmaker can decide whether the semi-town has a garrison, or who the owner is. The other nice thing about the semi-town is that you don't care about balance. Players will not actually play these towns, so any idea that disturbes the balance can be put here. Personally, I was thinking of giving every element a semi-town. Perhaps, that will soothe the HoMM3 magic lovers a bit. The whole thing would look a bit like this, then.
Water town:
Possible creatures: Water Elemental, Kelpie, Mermaid, Siren, Triton, Kraken, Sea Monster.
Notes: The water town would be able to form a fairly powerful army by themselves. However, they are limited to the water terrain and anything that is within 1 tile from the nearest water. This number could be increased to 3 or 5 tiles with a special building in the water town itself.
Fire town:
Possible creatures: Fire Elemental, Flame Warrior, any of the fire-based demons that are kicked out of the death town.
Notes: This town could be an excellent place to dump the demons, since no one wants them to remain with the undead. In my opinion, they are not strong enough to become a town by themselves, so this would be the best solution.
Earth town:
Possible creatures: Earth Elemental, Moulder, Juggernaut, Vines, Stone Golem, Petrified Dendroid.
Notes: I guess this town would be found more in the underworld. All creatures would be slow, but strong. It would be a very bad town to play with, but since this is a semi-town, that is no concern.
Air town:
Possible creatures: Air Elemental, Wisp, Spirit, Elemental Sorcerer, Tempest.
Notes: Probably the strongest semi-town in magic, and with fast creatures. I could incorporate some things from my old spirit town here (I eliminated it when revising my own proposals).
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Perception is everything.
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Deimos
Known Hero
LHW Paladin
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posted March 09, 2004 04:31 AM |
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This is a very good idea, but I have something to add. They should have a mage guild. In my system, there is a school for every town, and a joined school. For example, Chaos mage guild could teach GM Chaos, M Nature, M Death, and M Fire, E Wind, and E Earth. Death would have GM Death, M Order, M Chaos, M Earth, E Fire, and E Water. The only place to get GM elementals could be the half-towns. Is that a good idea?
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Let's Have War=Best thread on HC.
By the way, my name is Deimos, not Diemos.
Some people don't have a life. Others spend it on HC- Lord Woock.
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gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted March 09, 2004 05:00 PM |
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barbadian (in thread 'Ocean/Water Town' atm):Quote:
but you should add the desert/shadow/swamp/infernal town to the semi town list
why not add all towns to the semi town list? so none of the towns in the game have to be playable.
Marelt_Ekiran:Quote:
This town could be an excellent place to dump the demons, since no one wants them to remain with the undead. In my opinion, they are not strong enough to become a town by themselves, so this would be the best solution.
demon creatures not strong enough to be a town by themselves, huh, that's surprising. so they should better be neutral?
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Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
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posted March 09, 2004 11:40 PM |
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To quote Might and Magic VI on the origen and purpose of the demons:
"They came from the depths of the Void. An ancient enemy of an ancient people. No one know why they hate us so, or why they have made war upon us. Some say that the struggle against their evil is the Mandate of Heaven. Although their origens and purpose are shrouded in mystery, their plan is simple: They travel, they land, and then they conquer. And now, they are here on our world; to do what they have done to so many others. And they will do it, unless someone stops them."
So in fact, they are no one's friend. The warlocks of Nighon tried to make an alliance with them, but they were betrayed on first opportunity. Therefore, there is no good reason in putting them in any other town, especially because of contrary popular demands.
Actually, in M&M8, Escaton says that the demons on the old world have been completely destroyed. Apparently, that was not the case, since the demons do appear again in HoMM4 and it seems unlikely that they were native Axeothians. But the Death Campaign states that they are really weak and have to put up with the undead armies, while those are not really strong either. Furthermore, there are only three real demons in HoMM4. The Ice Demon does not fit in the classical demon theme, the efreet is technically not a demon and is therefore better at home in the Chaos Town. I don't think that anyone would like a return of the venom spawn, so that leaves us with the imp, the cerberus and the devil. Three creatures are not a strong enough base of an alignment. Especially since in my proposal, a full town line-up requires 12 creatures, not counting neutrals. Even if you were to bring back all demonics from HoMM3, you will only get half-way. Therefore, I found it better to kick the demons out of town alignments altogether.
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Perception is everything.
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gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted March 10, 2004 02:36 PM |
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well, my personal opinion makes me biased.
and the firm personal opinion is that the whole kreegan story is a piece of stinking **** that homm should try to get rid of.
matter of taste, i guess.
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as for the creatures, i am not completely sure of the role of cerberi in the inferno, i think it might be a matter of some debate.
imho it is likely that evil eye and nightmare are somewhat demonic creatures.
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demons were associated with insect symbolism, as insects were believed to be creatures of the devil. so i would really like to see the biblical apocalyptic grasshopper (with head of a noble, breastplate, tail of a scorpion) as a reasonably low level demon.
btw
some imho sufficiently diverse-looking demons that could be a source of inspiration for demon town creatures (some descriptions have 'image' link, seems that it was best to use the next button with the pictures). the descriptions may even be somewhat more useful, as the pictures might be too scary (retarded):
http://demons.monstrous.com/demonic_encyclo.htm
and some painting with diverse mutant demons:
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/b/bruegel/pieter_e/painting/religion/rebel-an.jpg
what i mean is that i don't think 12 mythological demonic creatures would be a big problem.
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i don't think that there need to be too many semi-towns, and i surely believe that demon town should not be a semi-town.
you have all those efreeti and salamanders for the fire town.
maybe for water town it would be enough if water towns would not be counted if the victory condition is 'loose towns'.
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted March 18, 2004 08:19 AM |
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The Semi-Town
I must admit this is a commendable idea from Marelt_Ekiran, it was just a shame it wasn't posted here closer to the time it was posted on the Round Table, so maybe more discussion and more conclusions could be made.
Part of the reason why I think the Semi-Town idea is a good one is because there needs to be some more variety on the adventure map. In the early days of Heroes I and II, there was just one sole centerpoint for the game, and that was the castles. Their safety and defense was paramount, as, in most maps, if you did not reclaim them within 7 days, you would lose. Castles were vital throughout Heroes I and II, and the basis for all army build up. There were little exterior dwellings, and the only upgrade object was the Hill Fort.
In Heroes III and IV, the number of exterior dwellings improved to have garrisons that also acted as a station for creatures and a mini-fort. One could also station their troops at mines which also provided another bay.
The bottom line is that there needs to be more variety of adventure map structures that contributes to the construction and augmentation of the army strength. My 'Villages' idea was meant to help this. The Semi-Town is another excellent step, as it endeavours to bridge the gap between an almighty town and a smaller castle.
Another commendable part of this idea is reverting back to the Heroes III spell system of Earth, Air, Fire and Water. Though it would provide a sense of nostalgia, it would be a good way of inserting these elements into the new game, and making the elementals not seem redundant, as they did appear a little out of place for me in Heroes IV without the elements spell schools.
Additionally, not linking these Semi-Towns with any specific alignment was another good move, because if they were linked, it would require many more of them to be made. Also, each of the towns bears no distinct benefit or correlation to the town of your choosing, and the strength is defined by its creatures.
Limiting the capabilities of the Semi-Towns would be expected and would also make them seem less imporant, as they should be. But some of the limitations seem a little illogical to me:
"- The semi-town has a smaller number of creatures, which do not correspond to normal creature levels."
The first part is fine, the second part is slightly quizzical. Why wouldn't the creatures in the Semi-Town correspond to creature levels? Creature levels are there to group the creatures' strength, and to have the Semi-Town creatures exempt from this would make little sense. What is your reasoning behind this decision?
"Semi-towns have no magic or mage guilds."
This isn't so bad, but I am just wondering why you wouldn't have maybe included some fire, air, earth, and water based spells from other castles like a mini-mage guild that would only really teach basic spells. That would also be interesting to consider.
"The other nice thing about the semi-town is that you don't care about balance."
That is exactly what I thought about the idea. It is quite simplistic, and due to the Semi-Towns individuality, there would be no need to balance them.
Now, for the town line-ups.
I think most of them are great. There would just be a couple of creatures I would add overall.
Water Town:
Possible Creature to add: Scylla. This is a great water snake, and probably should be included. There would always be capacity for rivalry between Scylla and Hydra. (Just as there is with Titan vs BD and Angel vs Devil)
Fire Town:
Possible Creatures to add: Efreet, if it is not in the chaos town, and maybe the djinn, if it is at all similar. They would both fit very well into the town. Though the Phoenix would probably fit well into another full town, if it does not it would definitely assimilate exceptionally well.
Earth Town:
Would you be able to explain the nature of the Juggernaut and the Vines? What would they look like, etc.
Another possible addition would be something similar to a sand spirit, like something that is shaped from the sand.
Air Town:
I'm not sure if making a Semi-Town the 'strongest' would be a good move, especially if it is noticeable, because then you are bound to have some problems with balance. I myself don't have any creatures to suggest here.
Overall, I think it is a truly excellent idea, and if the towns can be expanded and their theories elaborated upon, this would be a worthy idea to place in the game.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted March 30, 2004 08:58 PM |
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A more skeptical approach
All the reasoning behind the semi-towns is fine, but you’re missing one central question. Why would you need them? Will they be used?
And the question arising from this dilemma is “Will a player be willing to make an army out of these towns?” That’s the point, isn’t it, since there are no heroes, money..
I don’t think that players will even bother to buy these creatures, or even invest money in developing the town’s potential. I take it that the player’s the one who’s supposed to build the creature dwellings, right?
Firstly, I wouldn’t spend my money to make a second army, while I have unrecruited creatures in my home town. Not to mention the resources that I should pay in order to build the dwellings for higher-level creatures. And let’s face it, while still early in the game (have only one town), you usually don’t have money for your own troops, and imagine simultaneously building a new army with the same money you’ve got.
After you conquer a town or two, I don’t think you’d spend your precious money on developing the semi-town, and leave the new conquered more powerful town (and probably mostly developed) as it is.
And let us not forget the fact that the semi-town has a lower creature growth, yet another reason for the poor meaningness of the expensive semi-town army.
So in the end, we end up with a lot of creatures in these semi-towns without having a big role in the game, except as neutral creatures on the map, I guess. And it looks like a wasted potential to me.
Now, if you decide to add a gold-producing building in the semi-town in order to support that army, then it wouldn’t be much different than an ordinary town, would it?
So why making semi-towns at all? I’m sure a lot more people will be pleased if some well-thought balanced towns are made, so that you can play all of them and experience them fully, the way you should, not just partially (an ordinary decoration).
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Dyrvom
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 30, 2004 09:39 PM |
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Earth town being underground where it's plant creatures can't photosynthesise doesn't make sense, and I really don't see a need for this when you can just lump these creature dwellings together (also it seems to require filling in some gaps with contrived ideas like "Vines"). I don't like the idea. I DO however like the idea of flaggable "Cities" that increase creature growth rates for their holder and each allignment uses in a unique secondary manor, these Cities would not actually produce creatures themselves.
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M77
Hired Hero
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posted April 06, 2004 02:59 AM |
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Water Town - good(water elemental - bad)
Fire Town - bad
Earth Town - bad
Air Town - bad
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Come play my browser game:
http://mattery.com/
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Yuna
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 06, 2004 10:17 AM |
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the ocean town is the only good town in the semi town topic,
the others need a big change and the limit you put to those towns is way to high
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=6]Library Of Enlightenment[/url], to discuss Heroes 4, please go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=17]War Room Of Axeoth[/url], to discuss Heroes 5, go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=1]Temple Of Ashan[/url].
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