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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted September 21, 2001 01:24 PM |
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Necromancy-Wrong
All us veteran HOMM players enjoy playing with our favourite towns, which most probably include our favourite creatures. HOMM 2, was a classic example of being unbalance. Take the Warlock. Top creature 300 HP. Then look at the castle. 65 HP for a Crusader. ???? Bit hard knowing who's going to win.
But he towns and heroes had specialties. The Warlock, powerful creatures and spells. Wizard, the spells and range attack. Then in both HOMM2 and 3, the Necropolis towns had control over their beloved secondary skill, Necromancy. The Necroplois towns may not be the strongest, but have the added skill of being able to learn Necromancy. This was helpful to everyone in many ways. When you defeated another player, you would use Necromany to resurrect dead creature stacks. The AI finds it very helpful, as it usually has hordes of skeletons in H3.
But, we know, if this were to happen everyday, a black dragon would die, then it would be transformed into a skeleton???
I think, when they resurrect the dragon corpse, it could turn into a more pwerful Bone Dragon, as its bones are the same. This would be much more exciting for the players and AI. Say, if a Vampire was killed, it would turn back ot a vampire, because it was undead, but say a magi dies, it would come back as a lich. The lich is most like the mage, but in an undead form. So the dead creature stack can become a Necropolis creature it is most similar to.
It can be measured in three levels.
BASIC: 50% chance of being turned into similar creature stack. 50% chance of being turned into a skeleton.
ADVANCED: 70% chance of being turned into similar creature stack, 30% chance of being tirned into a skeleton.
EXPERT: 90% chance of being turned into similar creature stack. 10% chance of being turned into a skeleton.
I know this idea is already too late for heroes 4, but can be implemented into further heroes successors. It will also be a boost for the Necropolis castle, as they are often being beaten by the likes of Dungeon, Tower and Castle.
It will also make Necromancy a more useful skill, and therefore, it will not come up as much as other secondary skills.
So what do you think??
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Hexa
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted September 21, 2001 02:38 PM |
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I realy like that idea.
It might even convince me to play Necro some more.
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If you want to realize your dreams >>> you have to wake up!@
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sikmar
Promising
Known Hero
The Moonchild
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posted September 21, 2001 02:48 PM |
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The Bone Dragon idea...
it's not new. Even the people in 3DO had probably thought of it cos if you take a dragon into the skeleton transformer, what do you obtain??? a Bone Dragon!! (and maybe some people doesn't know this yet).
I like the idea of necromancy being more specific, but two main problems come to my mind:
1.- Some creatures doesn't seem to have a skeleton shape to resurrect into: elementals, golems, gargoyles, dendroids... Maybe these creatures could be immune to necromancy.
2.- Developing that idea will need skeleton shapes for cerberi, unicorns, thunderbirds, medusas... how can the necropolis hold so many creatures?
And of course, a lot of people thinks the Necropolis is too powerful with the HOMM3 necromancy system. If we necromancers are going to raise bone dragons and other superior units, they should decrease the numbers in the formula or find another way to balance this skill.
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This is my truth. Tell me yours
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Zune
Adventuring Hero
of Tatalia
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posted September 21, 2001 05:45 PM |
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The idea might work.
I don't think Necromancy makes the Necropolis too powerful, but it certainly makes it a strong town. If the Necromancy is going to improved that drastically, I think the Necropolis will hardly be beatable if it doesn't get some kind of penalty.
Decreasing the number of creatures raised doesn't in my opinion really solve the problem. I would rather have some more creatures of all levels than a lot of more 1st level creatures. Maybe if the number of creatures available for recruiting is lowered for the Necropolis, your idea could work.
Of course, it's impossible to have a good skeleton shape for all creatures, but they could be converted to plain skeletons like now. Or maybe they could be converted to ghosts, now that they are in the game? They have no bones, so it wouldn't be "unrealistic", if you understand what I mean.
About the transformer: I have never tested this but I have heard that if you put magi in the transformer, they will become liches.
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OmegaDesahkr...
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 21, 2001 09:46 PM |
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I totally agree with you hydra.. i prefer the necromancer to anything due to the black magic, undead, etc. and the ability to horde so that wouldve been a sweet idea.
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted September 22, 2001 02:43 AM |
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Quote:
2.- Developing that idea will need skeleton shapes for cerberi, unicorns, thunderbirds, medusas... how can the necropolis hold so many creatures?
See if that works...
Anyway, i said, because there are over 60 creatures in the game, that say if a cavalier dies, it would be closest ot a dread knight, so you obtain that.
Swordsmen-Liches or skeletons
Nagas-Bone Dragon
Titans-Liches.
They may not be the same, but they are closest to it. So, the necropolis only has to hold the creatures that it has now.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Dragonhunter
Adventuring Hero
Anybody got a Band-aid
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posted September 22, 2001 02:55 AM |
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I understand that the Necro. skill will allow you to raise creatures after combat.
Does this skill require spell points.
I think it should, 'cos it would limit the amount of ressurrecting you can do.
I think that one skill can also heal units after combat.
Does the same thing apply?
P.S. Some guy with a stupid name took my avatar!
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted September 22, 2001 10:27 AM |
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Quote:
I think that one skill can also heal units after combat.
Does the same thing apply?
Quote:
No. This is just an idea for an advancement on the secondary skill. I understand that it will be much more useful ,so, i have decided that it will be harder to obtain.
It works in the same way as the old necromancy did. It just raises different creatures.
Hope 3DO implement it, or something like it in H5.
Like, when i Black Dragon dies, it corresponds with its level, instead of the creature it looks like.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Dragonhunter
Adventuring Hero
Anybody got a Band-aid
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posted September 22, 2001 01:33 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I think that one skill can also heal units after combat.
Does the same thing apply?
Quote:
No. This is just an idea for an advancement on the secondary skill. I understand that it will be much more useful ,so, i have decided that it will be harder to obtain.
It works in the same way as the old necromancy did. It just raises different creatures.
Hope 3DO implement it, or something like it in H5.
Like, when i Black Dragon dies, it corresponds with its level, instead of the creature it looks like.
Yes Hydra have many heads, but I thought that some or all of the heads could also breath fire?
(At least that has been my experience!!)
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted September 22, 2001 02:16 PM |
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although i am undecided about supporting getting same level creatures that were killed instead of skeletons (with the exception of 4th level creatures, i support this one for sure)..
in the case of getting same level creatures, the undead creature dwellings might act like necromancy amplifyers for that level of creature. the max level of creatures resurrected depending on necro skill level is also nice. it would be even better if you could build your necro town so that there would be inferno creatutes only, so that there would be sth like two towns in one, and forget about necromancy. or pick devil heroes who don't have the necromancy skill.
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted September 23, 2001 01:38 AM |
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Quote:
in the case of getting same level creatures, the undead creature dwellings might act like necromancy amplifyers for that level of creature. the max level of creatures resurrected depending on necro skill level is also nice. it would be even better if you could build your necro town so that there would be inferno creatutes only, so that there would be sth like two towns in one, and forget about necromancy. or pick devil heroes who don't have the necromancy skill.
If that happened, it wouldn't be called the Necropolis. Devil heroes may even have the necromancy skill. Who knows until it comes out.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 23, 2004 08:31 AM |
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Edited By: Consis on 23 Mar 2004
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My Thoughts Concerning Necromancy
It is my opinion that necromancy as a secondary skill has been both abused and nerfed. I say altar the ability fundamentally.
Necromancy should be a general term overviewing an entire school of spells and abilities. I believe it should encompass a direction of player specialization.
I think the Heroes4 advancement tree was the new beginning for the game to evolve into a more widely accepted game. Having an advancement tree for a specialist would be most useful. Towards the end of the advancement the Heroe might be classified as "Grand Master" or "Grand Mage". Obtaining these specialist titles should allow the Heroe to receive the highest specialized talents of that school that would be otherwise restricted from a Heroe that simply decided to generalize his skill advancement over a broad field of schools.
Specialization should come with benefits and penalties. Heroes whom the player has decided to specialize in a skill should be granted certain secondary skill bonuses and penalties. The Heroe should be prohibited from skills opposite in nature due to their strict self-designated guidelines in focusing towards a single professional goal.
An example covering the penalty: if a Heroe specializes in Necromancy then he or she should not be allowed to gain spells like resurrection or secondary skills like benefitting morale.
An example covering the bonus: undead regeneration like that of a Heroes3 troll or wraith. Perhaps another secondary skill of bonus could include etherealism that allows the undead to be more resitant to physical attacks but taking more damage from magic attacks.
I feel this type of secondary bonus skill should cost an entire skill slot to use and should be offered to the necromancer specialist for free due to his or her commitment in the singular professional outlook.
Raising dead anything should be a spell of appropriate cost in spell points or mana or whatever the basic currency for spell use might be.
For example: raising a skeleton shouldn't cost too much because it's a much weaker unit than, say, a bone dragon. At the end of each battle the Heroes should be given the option to raise the unit that is most closely related to the unit of choice by spending his alotted spell points. If the necromancer has progressed far enough in his or her specialization tree then the necromancer could the choice from skeleton to deathknight or even bonedragon. The skeleton should cost only a small amount of points to raise while the larger and stronger unit should cost a great deal more.
So if you think about it a specialist might take a specific specialty and choose all other secondary skills that might support the effects of his or her main focusing skill. On the other hand a general Heroe who chooses Necromancy for a school to train in should only be allowed to progress as high as raising a 3rd lv unit and shouldn't receive any secondary skills free nor be prohibited from any opposing skills.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted March 23, 2004 02:06 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Nagas-Bone Dragon
Titans-Liches.
Oh, I see. I must be getting old, because I failed to see you're just sarcastic. For a long time I thought you're serious.Good joke !
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted April 03, 2004 11:19 AM |
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Necromancy-Wrong Revisited
Thanks to one of Dingo’s uninspired revivals (which has now been deleted)  there appear to be a few more thoughts from the more recent members of the Heroes Community. I’m glad the thread has had more exposure, possibly because it didn’t get the amount of replies I had hoped when I posted it 2 and a half years ago.
Firstly, to clear any misconceptions, the thread title was meant to contain a question mark. (Necromancy-Wrong?). Firstly to answer some old questions that missed or did not have an answer to: (I know these people still visit the community, so I’m not talking to nobody.)
Sikmar
“Even the people in 3DO had probably thought of it cos if you take a dragon into the skeleton transformer, what do you obtain??? a Bone Dragon!!”
Yes, I had noticed that when I played Heroes III, and the Bone Dragon creature actually sparked the idea. Seeing as in the game, they were the same model, just the Bone Dragon being without any of its black scales which make it so powerful, I thought it must have just been a dead dragon. But when the a Dragon dies, in necromancy, it is resurrected as hordes of skeletons (based on Heroes II) not a Bone Dragon. My idea was not meant to apply only to the Undead Transformer, but primarily to the necromancy skill. This would make it similar to resurrection, in that the creatures’ strengths are retained. If resurrection were in Heroes II, they’d all return as peasants.
“1.- Some creatures doesn't seem to have a skeleton shape to resurrect into: elementals, golems, gargoyles, dendroids... Maybe these creatures could be immune to necromancy.”
I do see your point here. The skeletal structure of the creature would make it difficult to find an exact fit for a creature. But you don’t expect a dead gargoyle to return as a human skeleton. I think the immunity to necromancy is a great idea, because it doesn’t mean they can’t die, in these creatures’ case, they are made from the elements, so they return to the earth from which they came. It does make a lot of sense in this case.
“2.- Developing that idea will need skeleton shapes for cerberi, unicorns, thunderbirds, medusas... how can the necropolis hold so many creatures?”
To re-think my stance on this question, it is apparent that the Necropolis would not be able to hold the amount of creatures so the next best thing would to apply their skeletal shape with the next closest creature. Or, in the spirit of the bone dragon (off on a tangent here) there could be a skeletal form for every creature, and it would only be attainable through necromancy. Yes, this would make the skill extremely powerful if there were no limits on the ability, so some strict restrictions need to be put in place here.
Revised Necromancy – Wrong:
The Necromancy skill is a rarity, and can only be learnt by the most experienced of sorcerers. There are indeed two types of this very powerful skill. Skeletal Necromancy, and True Necromancy. Skeletal Necromancy is similar to that of Heroes II. It converts all dead creatures into skeletons. Here is a more detailed overview.
Skeletal Necromancy
Animates a portion of the units killed in battle into skeletons after you are victorious. (Note: You gain nothing if you are defeated )
Basic: You obtain 10% of the units’ Hit Points killed in battle converted to skeletons.
Advanced: You obtain 15% of the units’ Hit Points killed in battle converted to skeletons.
Expert: You obtain 20% of the units’ Hit Points killed in battle converted to skeletons.
Master: You obtain 25% of the units’ Hit Points killed in battle converted to skeletons.
Grandmaster: You obtain 30% of the units’ Hit Points killed in battle converted to skeletons.
True Necromancy
True Necromancy becomes available after you have successfully reached the Grandmaster level of the Skeletal Necromancy skill. A hero who has not reached the Grandmaster level of Skeletal Necromancy is ineligible to learn this prized skill. True Necromancy is Necromancy at its greatest. It works in the same way as Skeletal Necromancy, only it is more efficient and precise at animating the dead. If you are in a battle against 4 Behemoths, 10 Harpies, 30 Centaurs, and 50 Orcs, depending on the level of the True Necromancy, you would get a certain number of Bone Harpies, Undead Centaurs, and Bone Orcs. Using Grandmaster as an example, you would get 1 Bone Behemoth, 3 Bone Harpies, 9 Undead Centaurs, and 15 Bone Orcs.
Basic: You obtain 10% of the units’ Hit Points killed in battle converted to the corresponding creature.
Advanced: You obtain 15% of the units’ Hit Points killed in battle converted to the corresponding creature.
Expert: You obtain 20% of the units’ Hit Points killed in battle converted to the corresponding creature.
Master: You obtain 25% of the units’ Hit Points killed in battle converted to the corresponding creature.
Grandmaster: You obtain 30% of the units’ Hit Points killed in battle converted to the corresponding creature.
A problem that may arise when the time comes to place the creatures in your army is that the army slots may become too small for the number of undead creatures. Seeing as they are all Necromacer troops, they are all of the same alignment, and it would be possible to mix and match, and leave the ones you don’t want.
These ‘Bone’ creatures will not be recruitable at any other location in the game, (unless there is a scripting option like the Megadragon) and are only available through True Necromancy.
Now, a question concerning the strength of these Undead Creatures which you might have; again following in the footsteps of Heroes II, I have decided to use the Bone Dragon as my base creature, versus the Black Dragon.
Heroes II statistics are as follows:
Black Dragon:
Attack: 14
Defense: 14
Damage: 25 -50
Cost: 4,000
Hits: 300
Speed: Very Fast
Bone Dragon:
Attack: 11
Defense: 9
Damage: 25-45
Cost: 1,500
Hits: 150
Speed: Average
In light of these statistics, it would be best to make the following strength adjustments to the undead creatures.
Attack: Negate 25% from normal creature
Defense: Negate 25% from normal creature
Damage: Negate 15% from normal creature
Hit Points: Negate 40% from normal creature
Speed: Half the speed of the normal creature
Movement: Half the movement of the normal creature
Shots: Half the shots of the normal creature
If there are any problems with this, or if you think this is unbalanced, please voice your opinion here.
Consis
Nice post there, I just have one point to make.
“If the necromancer has progressed far enough in his or her specialization tree then the necromancer could the choice from skeleton to deathknight or even bonedragon.”
I think this idea is better than the method used by Heroes II. Choosing the creature you wish to animate is definitely a commendable idea. Making Necromancy more specialised is also good, but the idea it doesn’t address is why the bones are reformed in that position. Surely, if 1000 peasants die, it can’t be reformed as a few Bone Dragons. That was one of the main points behind starting this thread, making the creatures undead forms more realistic. If we did not have to worry about this, I’d say your idea is close to perfect.
B0rsuk
“Oh, I see. I must be getting old, because I failed to see you're just sarcastic. For a long time I thought you're serious.Good joke !”
I find a dead Dragon being animated as skeletons through necromancy more absurd.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted April 03, 2004 09:52 PM |
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there is also the level of abstraction sort of thing, i don't quite believe in having a skeleton for every creature type.
to me it seems that the discussion might soon return to the point where it started. at least imho it looks like that, except for this part of the discussion:Quote:
Surely, if 1000 peasants die, it can’t be reformed as a few Bone Dragons. That was one of the main points behind starting this thread, making the creatures undead forms more realistic.
*sigh*
bad news, even about this issue my opinion is quite different. i have been thinking of upgrading 500 skeletons into a bone dragon in a laboratory. what you need is enough bones, and maybe you also need a soul of a dragon. one skeleton among 500 might have the suitable soul you need.
i can see that there are probably people who do not like the idea of looking at the bone version of a creature as a golem sort of thing that might or might not have a soul, or if it does, then the soul doesn't have to be directly related to the creature. a generic skeleton is imho nice enough to represent most of those bone monstrosities.
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted April 05, 2004 03:03 PM |
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It was born as absurd game, and there's no easy way to change it. It doesn't matter if you like it or not. HOMM must be either absurd or redone from scratch. .
If you seek more realistic rules, try to play Master Of Magic, or Dominions2
Especially Dominions2. It's a fantasy strategy game... but VERY different from HOMM. Short combat comparison:
-each creature occupies some space, this means 1 unit per square for larger units. Yet it's not uncommon to see hundreds of soldiers in one battle.
-realistic morale. Each wounder or killed soldier reduces squad's morale. If it falls too low or the commander is killed (there can be many per army, but only one per squad), the squad routs.
- fatigue
- friendly fire for ranged units
- formations matter A LOT
- permanent afflictions like Lost One Eye, Feebleminded, Lost An Arm, Chest Wound, Battle Fright...
- unit attributes like attack and defense skill, protection, encumbrance, speed, weapon lenght, number of attacks, strenght,morale,unit experience, heroic abilities, magic resistance... too many to list.
======================
Having played Dom2 and MOM for some time, I must say a lot of HOMM stupidity comes from idea of army stacks. At the same time it's one of most known features of homm serries.
Oh and as for nagas, they come from hindu mythology. They are cross of a woman and a snake. I don't think each snake should be automatically promoted to dragon. If so, I want to get 10 Bone Dragons from each medusa.
I hope you can understand how much your necromancy idea is unbalanced. Take a look at Heroes3. As a necromancer, would you prefer to fight Fortress or Castle ?
After defeating Castle army, you would get lots of ordinary skeleton warriors, dread knights from champions and at best liches from angels.
After defeating Fortress, you would get Bone Dragon from Basilisks (which are similar to dragons), Bone Dragons from Wyverns, and Bone Dragons from Hydras.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.
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