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| Thread: What is happening with the world?? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted March 16, 2004 03:41 AM |
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Edited By: Khaelo on 15 Mar 2004
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briefly
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I notice that Khaelo has a somewhat cyclical view of the course of history...The three major monotheistic religions of today have a linear view of the course of history, which is an idea I and Peacemaker share, but not formed on religious grounds, that’s for sure.
Anyway, why is this important? Basically it’s progress vs. consistency, change vs. cycles, known vs. unknown etc. Is this the reason why some of you don’t believe in technological progress? I don’t know. You tell me.
Ah, time. My favorite model of time's progression is actually from Dinotopia.  It's a spiral. We move along making progress and changing according to the linear model, but our path follows the same general trends and shapes as those before us and after us, according to the cyclical model. I do believe in technological and cultural progress. As a literate woman using a computer to talk to people all over the globe, it would be pretty stupid to deny it.  I just find it hard to have faith in progress's permanency and/or universality. ->
Quote:
After all, there are still full half of the people in the world, struggling for survival and some food in order to live till the next morning.
Couldn't have said it better.
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 Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 16, 2004 05:43 AM |
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I Love It
Quote:
As a literate woman using a computer to talk to people all over the globe, it would be pretty stupid to deny it.
That is so completely factual. If the old ways still existed I would miss not hearing your voice Khaelo. I like reading your posts. I'm glad america supports and promotes freedom of women. Without your say, we men would only be half right only half of the time. I wouldn't want to live like that!
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 16, 2004 04:18 PM |
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Svarog,
First I think your posts are quite eloquent. You speak better English than a few Americans (born here) that I know. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with your posts. Deep discussions on complex subjects take a bit of space. If they are too long, mine are usually a lot longer.
Second, it is true (I agree) that technologies don't kill people, people kill people. I was mainly talking about how the various levels of technologies between cultures might explain why war and technology have interfaced differently for some of them. The advanced, externally-focused technology of Europe might be one main reason European culture has won global dominance (had better ships and bigger guns).
European war technology not only made the nation state system (and subjugation of tribal peoples globally) possible, I believe it is arguable that it made such a system inevitable. And this result -- the modern world -- is not the only possible, preordained path of human development, like many people think of it as being.
We are moving in a direction we call progress, but it is only one of an infinite number of possible forms our "progress" could have taken depending on multitudes of variables. Change one of those variables and "progress" as we know it might have a completely different face.
Quote:
But we mustn’t forget that this is/will be a turbulent age of the potential revolution Peacemaker is talking about. After all, there are still full half of the people in the world, struggling for survival and some food in order to live till the next morning. We, sitting in front of our computers and getting involved in “useless” philosophical debates, are only the minority in this cruel world.
Thus, is there the danger of happiness to only a fraction of humanity and misery for the rest of it? I don’t want that kind of happiness!
Good point both of you (noting Khaelo's response) Yes, there is no doubt this will be a terribly turbulent time. But we mustn't let that pull our attention away from the goal of the spiritual revolution or else the whole idea will become self-defeating.
I submit to you that one of the reasons we have famine spread over three quarters of the world is precisely because the present, spiritually unevolved world system holds the circumstance causing such famine in place. If large numbers of people, and individual leaders, start breaking free of the old world paradigm and making decisions based on different spiritual ethics than the ones they make decisions on now, then the entire face of the globe would be different.
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Stormrage
Known Hero
Tucker is not a duck
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posted March 21, 2004 12:32 PM |
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If you are speaking of peace, i think you should read "Conversation with god - a unusual dialogue" by Neale Donald Walsch.
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"Heed to my call, denizens of All poor countries! Viva la revolt!"
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 21, 2004 06:33 PM |
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Good start, Stormrage. Anything by Wayne Dyer is another.
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted March 23, 2004 02:40 AM |
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Human vs. Person
I think it IS possible to hate humans. In fact I think we should hate them.
Humans are a species of hunter-gatherers that have remarkable intelligence for animals. But like all animals, they try to outcompete for all available and wanted resources in their habitats. They have depleted oil reserves, cut down forests, and destroyed the ozone layer in order to feather their nests for their mates and offspring. They have become very proliferant and have spread to habitats wide and varied from their original african origins and may even be the dominant species of the planet. They also kill each other for various superfluous reasons apart from usual animal behaviour - such as competing for mates/food/territory.
They have various degrees of social interaction and hierarchies within the pack, which differ from habitat to habitat - on the surface at least. When you get down to it, the laws of nature still apply, and might usually makes right, with the rest of the pack going along with the alpha members.
They are a totally despicable species and should be wiped off the face of the planet before they precipitate an ecological disaster that Earth will never recover from.
A person, or people on the other hand, are very different creatures from humans. Biologically they are from the same genetic stock as humans and co-exist alongside them in the same habitats. People however possess not only intelligence, but a conscience. Humans superficially know 'right' from 'wrong'. They have incorporated these words into their language and show a willingness to adhere to them, and have others adhere to them - if it suits their goals in finding a mate/food/territory.
People on the other hand have incorporated these concepts into their conscience. They show a depth of feeling towards others above and beyond the needs of the pack, and look to the needs of the species. These needs are not immediate needs perhaps, but long term needs - in renewable energy, a clean environment, social equality to name a few.
A true person is very rare - most humans are aware of them, are aware that they could BE one, but don't care. Others however take the first step towards being a person and less of an animal, but realise that it's too hard and stop.
I myself am all too aware of my humanity. I am selfish at times. Uncaring at times. Unfazed when I see pictures on TV of famine - it's not like I haven't seen them before, and I'm waiting for Buffy to come back on thank you very much.
But that doesn't mean I'll stop there. To be human you just have to run with the pack. To be a person you have to be more than an animal. My 'bit more' will probably never amount to much - I'm not championing any causes last time I checked. But every time I get a choice to be a Person, or just another human, I'll try to be a Person.
Now you can all call me pompous and tear the $hit out of me
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 23, 2004 05:31 AM |
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Can't Believe What I have Just Read From Asmodean
Oh my god. I'm so flustered after reading that I don't even know where to begin to start. Of all the.....jeez...grr...what the....
Ok I can't talk right now. I will post on this when I have calmed down.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 23, 2004 05:58 PM |
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Oh, Consis, my friend. You take these things too hard.
Asmodean has simply set forth an allegory for human advancement. Many great philosophers have made similar analogies, but using different (perhaps less emotionally-loaded) terms -- Soren Kierkegaaerd's Knight of Infinite Resignation versus the Knight of Widsom; Plato's allegory of the Cave (which man emerges from gaining an ever-broader perspective ultimately to include all others), Maslow's hierarchy of Needs ( at the top of which a person can gain enough comfort an safety to look beyond today's lunch for him/her self and children) are only three that pop immediately into my mind. A comparison between Hobbes (life being "nasty, brutish and short") and Locke (The Noble Savage) is yet another illustration of what Asmodean is saying. And then finally, there's Ghandi.
Asmodean's allegory illustrates my point about the Spiritual Revoluation I posit is underfoot here on the planet. We have a choice -- to give, to suffer a little so that others might thrive more, to become invested in "teaching a man to fish" as it were, to commit random acts of kindness, thus ingaging in our "personage" -- or to simply continue looking out for ourselves, watching other people engage in acts of "personage," sometimes wishing we were more like they, but then shying away from the apparent sacrifice this might require, thus continuing our less-inclusive "human" vision of the forces moving and shaping our world and our lives.
Let me give you an example. I was just at 7-11 buying a cigar, when two young people, a man and a woman, came running into the store in a panick, late for work, keys locked in the blazer in which all their work gear was stored. The girl was on the cell phone begging her husband to pile their four kids into the van and come pick her up for a ride even though all her work items would be left behind in the blazer. It had automatc door locks and so a coat hanger was probably out of the question, but nonetheless before you knew it there were four of us out there trying everything we could to get into the car.
One man had a slim jim. He was late for work but could see this job was very important to these young people and there were several children obviously affected if these people lost the job. He tried and then waited while the rest of us took turns to no avail. Meanwhile, another man came over and offered two coat hangers and he and the boy began trying to get into the other window. He was also late for work, but again, could see the level of panick in these young people. I started trying my keys in the back hatch of the blazer. Then two more men came over and took turns on the hanger and the slim jim, as did the rest of us. One by one each had to give up because now they were all really late and their own jobs would soon be on the line.
I stayed behind and kept trying both methods (for unspecified reasons I have had a lot of experience and there just about isn't a car I can't break into.) I had work to do as well but would be working at home and knew I could afford a few more minutes than these others could.
Meanwhile the husband showed up with the van and the children, piled the woman in and they left. Now we had been there nearly half an hour. The young man was left behind to tend to the blazer. As we continued trying to break into the car, he and I kept talking about options-- that I might eventually have to give him a ride to work and leave the blazer behind. Then I looked at the lock on the door -- it was a Chevy -- I have two Chevy's in my family. I thought well it's worth another try -- so I looked at his key and chose a key on my ring that looked like his. I worked my key into the door, and began slowly working it back and forth. Within a few more moments I had unlocked the truck door with my own key.
We whooped and hollered and high-fived one another -- this stranger and I -- like we were old frinds. He hopped in the Blazer and sped away, and my whole day was made even though I knew it would put me behind.
Those folks and I will probably not forget each other for a long time. We all became "people" for a few minutes and tried our best to work together for the kids who were really just trying to get the job done.
As all this commotion was going on, several other humans walked by us, into the store, then walked out again and left, all probably thinking something like we all think when we are the passers-by -- gee I should stop and help, but I really gotta...... or perhaps some of them just not caring at all. They could have committed acts of "personage" but they chose on that occasion not to, for various superficially important reasons, probably very good ones to them at that moment. And perhaps some of them not so superficial.
There were probably some who walked by thinking these kids were irresponsible for locking their keys in the car to begin with, and so they deserved whatever they got. This kind of judgment in my mind is the lowest form of humanity imaginable, because it presumes far too much and shows utterly no compassion for the moment of error in a person's life that is small but can be costly to themselves and others affected.
The apparent practicalities and dangers of the world compel us all to choose leaders who are the alpha-protectors ("humans") who will look out for our own, prtect us against the stranger/enemy. But individuals are beginning to recognize that this is a self-perpetuating cycle, and yet, we are all at a loss as to how to break the cycle, even in our own individual lives. It is much easier to be a "person" at the individual level, yet even that is still hard when we have nests to line and children to feed and jobs to keep from losing in order to accomplish all that.
And so, the existing system is held in place by the very same fears that delineate between "humans" and "persons." Our whole world is structured on the "human" paradigm rather than the "person" paradigm. Nevertheless, individuals are at least thinking about it -- are trying to figure out how to be better, how to break the cycle. Word has it that more and more individuals are thinking on this. More and more are beginning to realize that either choice becomes its own self-fulfilling prophesy. Perhaps if enough make a try of it, we can actually find a way to break the cycle, take the leap, and make "persons" of our human nations....
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted March 23, 2004 06:10 PM |
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OH MY GOD I WAS SO DRUNK!
Oh God.
I've just written what I wrote last night. I can't stop laughing! Why oh why? What came over me I don't know.
The sentiment is there and it belongs to me, but who put those words in my mouth. I think I'm gonna rip the $hit outta MYSELF for sounding so high and mighty.
And stay away from serious discussion when I've had one too many....
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 23, 2004 06:36 PM |
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LOL
Well I'm not drunk and it made sense to me...
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 23, 2004 08:25 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 23 Mar 2004
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It's All Good
Asmodean LoLoh my god this is killer funny. I keep picturing you at the bar in that photo of yours in the "real life photos" thread all drunk and wasted trying to ponder life and play the guitar at the same time.
Peacemaker,
First of all I'd like to hear what Bort thinks of your helping an SUV driver. I'd call that sleeping with the enemy. You could quite possibly be labeled a traitor after that story. Hehe...
Secondly, your post rings of the truth in the fundamental sense of the word. "It's in our nature", some might say. Others will have other opinions. You and I are similar in this regard. I, too, behave like a "good samaritan" at times.
The problem with people like us is that others who don't share our behavior are more than likely unforgiving. They see it as a weakness. I know it may be my weakness but that's something I can live with.
Don't get me wrong, the code of the boyscouts is far too rediculous but we all have our own problems and we all make mistakes like you said. If I had the opportunity then I would have helped the person too.
**special note**
LoL Past experience breaking into cars eh? Can't say why? LoL digging a hole if you ask me. Someone is bound to pose the question, "OK PEACEMAKER WHERE'S THE STUFF? WE KNOW YOU WERE 'IN' WITH THOSE NO-GOOD FELLAS. WE HAVE WAYS OF MAKING YOU TALK!"
LoL
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 24, 2004 04:59 AM |
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(The real truth of my secret is a combination of being a Sagittarian and haing ADD -- I can't keep my head in one place so I keep an extra in my pocket. Used to be, though, before I got organized enough, that I locked my keys in my car with great regularity. After a while I got so good at it I could help others with theirs, and well, practice makes perfect!)
Just to be clear, this "SUV" was an old junker that had to be early eighties at best -- these kids were clearly poor. I hardly think "SUV" is what would come into most peoples' minds if they were to see this particular pile of rusted metal.
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted March 24, 2004 03:45 PM |
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meh. Until they're actually in the SUV, they're okay. If they're in the SUV when my glorious revolution comes, then they'll be up against the wall.
That said, we vertical apes aren't so bad. I think the measure of humanity isn't how often they do snowty things to eachother, but that they ever do anything decent and selfless. By definition, what possible advantage could one gain by doing something selfless? Nothing. So why do people still do it from time to time? (and if you stop and think about how many times in a day somebody does something nice for you, however small that act is, it's more than people tend to get credit for) The only reason I can think of is that, ultimately, we're not as scummy as our reputation.
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Drive by posting.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 24, 2004 05:35 PM |
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BTW -- bort I knew I liked you for a reason.
When your glorious revolution comes I'll be there right beside you with my own anti-SUV weapon.
My husband gets sick of my ad-nauseum griping about those damn things...
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Vadskye91
Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
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posted March 24, 2004 05:45 PM |
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What does ad-naeseum mean?
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Knowledge is power...
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted March 24, 2004 06:49 PM |
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Oh, so you haven't seen this thread yet?
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Drive by posting.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 24, 2004 07:22 PM |
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Quote:
...if there was a God of International Perceptions of Americans, his Avatar would ride around in an SUV. Probably a Ford Expedition. They are bloated, greedy, represent a complete disregard for the rest of the world and stink of arrogance.
..Forget like. I think it's love, bort.
You go, boy.
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