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| Thread: Greatest President Ever? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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privatehudson
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posted June 06, 2004 01:56 AM |
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Greatest President Ever?
This is a topic I wanted to start for some time now, but with the recent death of former president Reagan it kick started me 
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/05/reagan.health/index.html
Anyway, when browsing a number of websites I noticed that a fair few Americans actually think Reagan was the greatest president ever. It dawned on me that this might be a good discussion, so I'll throw my view in...
I think Lincoln was the greatest. He steered the country through what could have been a potentially disasterous period of it's history, brought in the emancipation proclomation, was straight talking and clever and had a wonderful gift for speeches. Like many modern day Presidents, Lincoln had charisma, but more than that, he put it to the best use possible. Far from being to blame for the civil war, I see him as being the president who finally grasped the nettle of slavery and did what he could to make America more like the vision of the declaration of independence.
Also, I believe that had Lincoln lived to see more time in office I believe that he would have produced a much less harsh terms for the south and helped to rebuild it's shattered economy after the war, helping in a small way to ease the divisions that were felt so keenly after the war for some time.
So that's me, now you yankees have a go... Or non-yankees 
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Dingo
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posted June 06, 2004 01:58 AM |
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George W Bush!
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privatehudson
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posted June 06, 2004 02:00 AM |
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This was meant to be a serious topic... some hope I guess
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Consis
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posted June 06, 2004 02:21 AM |
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Edited By: Consis on 5 Jun 2004
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He Meant A Great Deal To Me
I haven't done my homework on President Reagan. I know very few facts. I've only heard bits and pieces of his Iran/Contra scandal. I also remember him to be the president that was able to bring home american hostages when Carter could not.
I was born in 1975. Naturally, I don't remember anything about the 70's but my entire childhood was that of under the Reagan, Bush, and (last year of highschool) Clinton eras.
While growing up my parents were avid supporters of Reagan but if you asked my mexican/american history teacher in the 10th grade he would tell you Reagan was the worst. He would tell our class that his policies almost blatantly disregarded mexican americans and other such minority groups.
I only ever saw President Bush senior in person. I remember when Reagan was shot my mom wouldn't turn the t.v. off. She stayed glued to it and cursed the Iranian government thinking they were behind it. My dad never really cared about presidents or voting at all so he always voted whatever my mom wanted him to.
I also remember when Reagan asked Gorbechav to tear down the wall in Germany. I remember two bands that were selling hit records at the time. One was Jesus Jones(Right Here Right Now) and the other band was called Scorpions(winds of change).
I also remember the music video by Phil Collins's group, genesis, with their strange and funny wrinkle-faced Reagan costumes pushing the red button for breakfast.
I don't know much about the president but from what I saw while growing up, I think he had the right attitude for the right time in this country's history. We were coming out of the end of the cold war, communism was a bad word, Vietnam vets were trying for compensation for their comitment to service still. I think Reagan showed the world that we should let go of the past and look to the future with more forgiving eyes. They called him the "Gipper" for reasons I don't know. I think it had something to do with his old years in the movie industry.
Whatever the future brings, where ever destiny leads, I wish the Reagan family well. Ronald Reagan was a good man and the world will miss his warm friendly smile.
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posted June 06, 2004 02:35 AM |
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This is a topic I wanted to start for some time now, but with the recent death of former president Reagan it kick started me
subtle
well, my vote could be changed if I wanted to read alot but I would have to say either Washington or Lincoln. If Lincoln said today what he had said then he would have been laughed at, locked up, and been under CIA investigation.
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privatehudson
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posted June 06, 2004 02:41 AM |
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Well it has been coming for some time, what with Alzhiemers and all, not exactly unexpected was it? Besides, I wasn't intending the humour to be about him, but me being lazy 
BTW what exactly do you think Lincoln said that would result in that?
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Svarog
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posted June 06, 2004 03:07 AM |
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I don't like Reagan at all.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned Rousenvelt. He won several mandates one after another, involved successfully in WW2 and was one of the most respected American presidents ever. And a Democrat. 
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privatehudson
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posted June 06, 2004 03:43 AM |
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He actually probably would have been my second choice, especially since he was one of the few US presidents back then able to recognise that the US needed to pull itself out of isolationism and get involved in WWII both prior to Pearl (through the VERY expensive loans to the British and other things) and afterwards. I think he was a major factor in Bringing the US into WWII when it did. He was also extremely lucky in his career, an article I read said that the number of scandals that were covered up early in his life that may have blocked his presidency were quite a few. He was also lucky in that he came to the presidency prior to the major use of TV. Being disabled as he was it's doubtful unfortunately if he would have been elected nowardays.
Minuses are having Trueman as a running mate of course Also IMO there was a little more he could have done to prepare America for the war in "secret" as such. There were so few American regulars in the army at the outbreak of the war that in early '42 in the pacific, there were more Americans in POW camps than ready to fight the Japanese! For such a large industrial country, the US entered WWII woefully unprepared. OK so Pearl was a suprise attack (allegedly ), but the US had been teetering on the brink of joining for some time, to be so badly prepared was unfortunate.
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Svarog
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posted June 06, 2004 04:09 AM |
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Being disabled as he was it's doubtful unfortunately if he would have been elected nowardays.
But his condition got severed only after he got his second mandate I think. And if I'm not mistaken he had three mandates in office. But I really don't know why you think he wouldn't be elected nowdays. He isn't supposed to run in the Olympics, he's the President and needs only one body organ. (No, it's not what Clinton needed. )
Rousenvelt, I think, wasn't prepared for the war, because he had hoped to remain outside of it. He was peace-loving and hated war, and that's why I like him. However, he did make a wrong assessment by failing to see that not entering a war against nazism was simply impossible at the time.
Also, if you have a minute, could you please explain me why the hell one sane individual may choose Reagan as the best president ever?
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posted June 06, 2004 04:55 AM |
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what has Lincoln said that would have him run into troubles in this time era? welll, so hard to find quotes but they might be out there.
I only know one source to point at and it is a great movie. I suggest all of you political minded people watch it. It's called "Steal this movie" and it is totaly under rated.
He may not have been arrested by todays government, its a fair possibility though especialy if it was still the 60s. But in this day and age he probably wouldnt have been heard. You have to think of it in a different way that I cant help you with but times have changed since his pressence was around. I mean alot of things have changed.
seriously, watch that movie and start a thread. Its of Abbie Hoffman
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Aculias
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posted June 06, 2004 07:49 AM |
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Every time a president is elected, it's always in some time of trouble.
May it be depression or a war.
Every president made mistakes & theres some that made a difference in history bad or good.
I could pick Franklyn Pierce or James Buchanon but the 14th & 15th president did not have the courage fearing some states about racism.Probally because they were racist too.
Maybe Zachary Taylor,a president from a general who only knew about war.
Maybe ROnald Reagan who alot feared but heh even he left the microphone on about Missles  .
Maybe Andrew Johnson,yea you know Nixon was not the first to treat his staff likes dogs.
Also impeached.
Maybe James madison who helped framed the Bill of Rights & also enact the first Revenue legislation,did he have the balls for war?
The first white house sure took it's toll.
Maybe Thomas Jefferson the renasance man.
Who cut the army & the navy expendtures,also cut budgets,reduced National debt to a third,& even acquired Louisiana from Napoleon even if it was not in the constitution.Sure he hated both Burr & Hamilton,After all when they poll was tied with Arron Burr & Thomas Jefferson for the third president the house of representetive had a tough choice choose Jefferson.
Burr & Hamilton were at each others throats for years & yalls know the story of the showdown which Burr won.
What alot dont know is Jefferson orchestrated the whole thang with his own plans.
Which is why also why Burr was never governor of NY & Hamilton was to blame, just like Jefferson wanted it.
He had a more hardship in his second term because of the napolepn wars & problems with both England & France interfering with merchant ships routes.
I guess we cant say much for the Embargo american shipping .
Abraham Lincoln as I read was a kind & nice but strong tall man who was the president of the civil war,I think I read somewhere that he also had slaves too (like i said every president had thier faults ALL).Not everyone agreed with his actions.
Assisinated thinking it was for the best for people.
I wont even get into Andrew jackson lol.
Hard choice because everyone made great deeds but at the same time had some faults too.
I have to think about it.
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privatehudson
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posted June 06, 2004 08:27 AM |
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But his condition got severed only after he got his second mandate I think. And if I'm not mistaken he had three mandates in office. But I really don't know why you think he wouldn't be elected nowdays. He isn't supposed to run in the Olympics, he's the President and needs only one body organ.
It just happens to be my impression, and one not entirely unfounded that a lot of presidents and leaders had charisma that was not visual but rather either personal or though their voice such as Lincoln, Roosevelt, Churchill and so on. Their impact would have been less had they had to repeatedly perform for the camera. It's not something I particularly like, but now, the electorate are very much obsessed with image rather than policy... how else would Blair be elected?
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Rousenvelt, I think, wasn't prepared for the war, because he had hoped to remain outside of it. He was peace-loving and hated war, and that's why I like him. However, he did make a wrong assessment by failing to see that not entering a war against nazism was simply impossible at the time.
I appreciate that, however war was on the cards for some years, and preparing for it, whilst trying to stay out of it is not impossible. Like I said, some efforts could have been made "behind the scenes" to build the countries military up a little more. Not particularly a huge criticism, after all he did a lot that almost no other president would have done, just a thought that there was much else he could have also done.
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Also, if you have a minute, could you please explain me why the hell one sane individual may choose Reagan as the best president ever?
Well it appears from the posts I have seen elsewhere that many Americans support him due to Communism falling and a "thawing" of the cold war during his time in office. Personally I'd put the fall of the USSR down to internal problems that were almost inevitable by then, but Reagan's hardline influence against them, his resolving of the Iran hostages and so on made him popular. Not my opinions btw, just saying what I see
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I only know one source to point at and it is a great movie. I suggest all of you political minded people watch it. It's called "Steal this movie" and it is totaly under rated.
Well I guess since what you've said makes no real sense without it, I'll have to try and catch that to see what you mean
Jackson would never get my vote because whatever he did politically, his treatment of the Native Americans during his time in office and overall was appalling and tantamount to ethnic cleansing. Jefferson... I think the louisiana purchase had more to do with the French and British attitudes than any particular brilliant act on his behalf, IMO had certain things not happened the French would never have sold the territory in the first place. Other than that he seems to have been competent but I don't know enough about him to know that he was better than the others.
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redhawk
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posted June 06, 2004 08:47 AM |
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Also, if you have a minute, could you please explain me why the hell one sane individual may choose Reagan as the best president ever?
He didn't take any crap from piss ant third world countries with a chip on there shoulder cause someone pissed in there cereal. Iran freed there hostages shortly after Reagan was sworn in, Why? cause Reagan gave them one warning. free them or feel our fury. Iran/contra scandal, He tried to get rid of the drug trade and it backfired on him and oliver north took it in the shorts. Reagan was shot by some dipsnow over jodie foster and was back to work within a month. If believing that Reagan was the greatest president makes me insane then so be it.
There has been a lot of presidents that have done great things and I honor them all. but Reagans' strength, determination, charisma, and steadfast personality wins my vote.
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Defreni
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posted June 06, 2004 10:44 AM |
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Minuses are having Trueman as a running mate of course Also IMO there was a little more he could have done to prepare America for the war in "secret" as such. There were so few American regulars in the army at the outbreak of the war that in early '42 in the pacific, there were more Americans in POW camps than ready to fight the Japanese! For such a large industrial country, the US entered WWII woefully unprepared. OK so Pearl was a suprise attack (allegedly ), but the US had been teetering on the brink of joining for some time, to be so badly prepared was unfortunate.
Actually Truman resolved the Berlin crisis, aswell using the 2 a-bombs ever dropped in a war. This he did for reasons that it would minimize allied loses, and that probably saved a lot of japanese aswell.
But Franklin D. Roosevelt (Not to be confused with Theodore Roosevelt) is from a historic point of view probably the greatest president the U.S have had.
First elected during the depression, he the masses of poor people who where severely hurt by that economic crisis. This he did with his "New deal" package, which was one of the best constructed economic policies to actually work, and bring first the U.S and later the rest of the world out of the depression.
Regarding the fact that the U.S was underprepared for WW2 was not Roosevelts fault, at that time he didnt have a majority in the Congress. A congress that probably would have stopped a declaration of war against Germany. Luckily the megalomania of Hitler prompted him to declare war on the U.S. A fact us Europeans is still gratefull for.
But he did do what very few politician actually do. He stood up for his principles even if it wasnt what the majority of voters believed in. Best example is his lend-lease agreement with Churchill from march 1941, where he decided that, despite the fact that Congress wouldnt let him give military aid to Great Britain, he would let G.B borrow military hardware, and then return it when they where through using it.
This included 50 WW1 destroyers, which was the main reason that the battle of the Atlantic wasnt lost in the summermonths of 1941.
One of my favourite Roosevelt stunts, was when Charles Chaplin made his epic movie "The Great Dictator". This was movie where Chaplin depicted Hitler as the horrible dictator he really was, but that most americans at the time didnt realise. It took him over 2 years to film, and when it moving into its last phase of production, Chaplin was suddenly told it wouldnt get distributed. The reason was fear that Hitler wouldnt like it.
Roosevelt had his aide call on Chaplin. At that meeting Chaplin was guaranteed that if he couldnt find a distributer Roosevelt himself would have it distributed.
All in all Franklin Dellano Roosevelt was elected 4 times, and he was a leader that brought his country safely both through economic depression and the greatest war mankind has fought.
Lincoln had the pedigree to become as great as Roosevelt, but unfortunately he was killed before he showed he run the country in peace-time aswell as in war.
Regards
Defreni
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privatehudson
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posted June 06, 2004 11:24 AM |
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Actually Truman resolved the Berlin crisis, aswell using the 2 a-bombs ever dropped in a war. This he did for reasons that it would minimize allied loses, and that probably saved a lot of japanese aswell.
I happen to agree that Trueman probably saved lives, however there is some case for saying that the allied attempts to secure peace through diplomacy could have been persued further than they were. I understand why they were not, but a truly great president would have done more I guess.
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Regarding the fact that the U.S was underprepared for WW2 was not Roosevelts fault, at that time he didnt have a majority in the Congress. A congress that probably would have stopped a declaration of war against Germany. Luckily the megalomania of Hitler prompted him to declare war on the U.S. A fact us Europeans is still gratefull for.
I'm not talking about declaring war though, I'm talking about preparing for war. The US was nearly as badly prepared for WWII as it was for WWI and it showed in 1941 and 1942. Whatever his congress problems, I'm sure that Roosevelt might have found ways round them to ensure that the US was better prepared itself.
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Best example is his lend-lease agreement with Churchill from march 1941, where he decided that, despite the fact that Congress wouldnt let him give military aid to Great Britain, he would let G.B borrow military hardware, and then return it when they where through using it.
This included 50 WW1 destroyers, which was the main reason that the battle of the Atlantic wasnt lost in the summermonths of 1941.
As much as I admire the guy for doing it, it's also good to remember that Roosevelt and sucessive presidents made damn sure that we paid every last penny of those loans to buy those goods back with interest after the war. I'm grateful for the help they did give, but to be fair, the help nearly bankrupted the British during WWII and damaged our economy greatly afterwards.
Also those destroyers weren't that helpful other than a stop-gap measure. Most of them were so clapped out that they were nearly useless, their best use was to continue the conflict until newer ones and better technology came into play. Though we did make good use of one of them at St Nazairre
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Defreni
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posted June 06, 2004 12:08 PM |
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I happen to agree that Trueman probably saved lives, however there is some case for saying that the allied attempts to secure peace through diplomacy could have been persued further than they were. I understand why they were not, but a truly great president would have done more I guess.
Actually historical documents from the Japanese side of the war, clearly shows that the "peace by diplomatic way" wing of the japanese government was about to be oosted just prior to Hiroshima. The U.S intelligence was well aware of this fact, and it was a prime motivator for Truman when he gave the final order.
I'm not talking about declaring war though, I'm talking about preparing for war. The US was nearly as badly prepared for WWII as it was for WWI and it showed in 1941 and 1942. Whatever his congress problems, I'm sure that Roosevelt might have found ways round them to ensure that the US was better prepared itself.
Well to prepare for war one needs funding, and that was exactly what the U.S Congress withheld from Roosevelt. But on the positive side, the U.S was actually preparing for war, mainly by developing modern aircrafts and building the "Essex"-class carriers.
My point is simply that it is extremely difficult for a single man, even the President to prepare a nation for war, when the nation is so unwilling as The U.S was at that time.
As much as I admire the guy for doing it, it's also good to remember that Roosevelt and sucessive presidents made damn sure that we paid every last penny of those loans to buy those goods back with interest after the war. I'm grateful for the help they did give, but to be fair, the help nearly bankrupted the British during WWII and damaged our economy greatly afterwards.
Well actually the british economy was severely crippled by WW2, but that had nothing to do with the lend-lease agreement. G.B. didnt pay for the military aid they received under the lend-lease. But they did borrow substantial amount of money from the U.S during the way, and offcourse they had to pay those funds back.
And dont underestimate the structural damage to the british economy that was sustained during the German blitz, and especially during the battle of the Atlantic.
Which brings me to your final point.
Also those destroyers weren't that helpful other than a stop-gap measure. Most of them were so clapped out that they were nearly useless, their best use was to continue the conflict until newer ones and better technology came into play. Though we did make good use of one of them at St Nazairre
Yes, offcourse the 50 destroyers was a stop-gap measure. They where from WW1. But they came into service during a critical period in the battle of the Atlantic. A battle Britain was on the brink of loosing.
Roosevelt also gave Britain aid from U.S planes patrolling out from Nova Scotia. This was in direct violation of the U.S Congress, but it helped tremendously in minimizing the "Black gap" in the Atlantic, where planes couldnt cover the convoys.
Btw, did I mention Franklin D. Roosevelt is not only my favourite U.S president, but probably one of the few people I genuinly admire and find truly great. (Nelson Mandela and Mahatma Ghandi are also on that list)
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Defreni
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Aculias
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posted June 06, 2004 12:24 PM |
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Been a long time but I heard you dont know muc on Jacksom Hudsons Privates, let me try a short brief .
He was elected first term on popular votes.
He had alot of money ao he bought slaves to build his mansion called the hermitage,which he also retired to live in.
A democrat the Republicans (Whigs) proclaimed themselves Defenders of Liberty agaist Jackson & because of that Jackson used his Veto powers & his partys leadership for command.
Therefore a party battle began right smack center around near the second bank of the US.
Jackson became an arse & the bank used it's powers.
Jackson fearing the bank used his veto power charging the bank for undue Economic Privlege.
Old Hickory was resentful & always had to get vengeance in war.
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privatehudson
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posted June 06, 2004 01:12 PM |
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Actually historical documents from the Japanese side of the war, clearly shows that the "peace by diplomatic way" wing of the japanese government was about to be oosted just prior to Hiroshima. The U.S intelligence was well aware of this fact, and it was a prime motivator for Truman when he gave the final order.
That's why I said I understand why they did it, however overtures prior to that might have been sucessful. I understand why the guy did it, but Allied attempts to seek peace through diplomacy were falling short well before that date. Like I said, understand why, but also wish for those who died that at least some further attempts were made, rejected or not. It would after all at least keep quiet the detractors who continually complain that the US pulled a warcrime there
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My point is simply that it is extremely difficult for a single man, even the President to prepare a nation for war, when the nation is so unwilling as The U.S was at that time.
True, but as you have mentioned, he did do other things to defy congress, I just wish he could have done more, or at least earlier than he did.
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But they did borrow substantial amount of money from the U.S during the way, and offcourse they had to pay those funds back.
Exactly, money borrowed often whilst awaiting the US joining the war. Britain crushed it's economy fighting Hitler. It irks me a little that in 1944 and 1945 we struggled with massive debts and manpower shortages whilst the US vitrually went back to beyond even pre-war prosperity. I don't think the damage inflicted by the war was anywhere near as bad as spending decades having to pay massived debts incurred whilst fighting such a morally justifiable war. Without those debts, the structural damage would have been much easier to repair, after all, europe managed to a greater or lesser degree to eventually recover from even more crippling damage when not similarly impeded by the debts. It kind of makes me think that we were the ones really made to pay for the war in some ways. Alliances it seems don't stretch to forgiving debts
Personally I think he was good, but not the greatest ever. It also brings up the point about the US public, if Roosevelt alone had to do so much to drag the states kicking and screaming into WWII it says a great deal. Not that they should have been jumping into wars, but WWII was such a blatantly "moral" war that it provides an interesting insight into the thinking of Americans back then that it took such a hard task and fine person to persuade them to help in what little they could. Roosevelt is owed our thanks for dragging the US in, but it's a damned shame that congress etc couldn't allow more to be done.
The atlantic is an interesting battle anyway, after all, when the US did join the war it proceeded to hand the Germans a second happy hour by refusing to listen to the experience of the British. Sure they made a difference, but ulitmately the battle was won by the joint efforts of British technology/experience and American production
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Been a long time but I heard you dont know muc on Jacksom Hudsons Privates, let me try a short brief
I don't? *looks confused*
I know he commanded the US forces at the battle of New Orleans. Well I say a battle, but given the insane tactics of Pakenham, a turkey shoot would be more accurate I also know he permitted extensive settlement of Indian lands in the south of the USA despite Supreme court rulings against him, advocated forms of ethnic cleansing against the native american indians, clearing something like 100 million acres of their land and leading inexorably to the trail of tears in which many Cherokee died. I admit that on his politics I know little, but on his career as a soldier, and as a humanitarian, he will never get any vote from me.
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Svarog
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posted June 06, 2004 03:52 PM |
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He didn't take any crap from piss ant third world countries with a chip on there shoulder cause someone pissed in there cereal.
If you think his war-mongering and hard-line personality made him the greatest president, then so be it. Just i don't think the world would be the same today, if he had been president during the cuban missile crisis or other difficult periods. Reagan was lucky enough to come to presidency in a time when the USSR was crippling and he took the credit for it, which is propagandistic nonesense. Even more, his unlateralist foreign policy, lack of respect for international law and human rights, scandalous support and deals with suspicious world fractions (namely Iran and Nicaragua, Cuba and so many others that i dont know of) is what makes me think of him as one of the worst presidents in the more recent american history.
I just want to say that we cant give very objective thoughts on the issue and get invloved in details so much due to the fact that we didn't live during the time when most American presidents had their show.
From what other say about them and the results of their service, I can say that Roosevelt and Lincoln (maybe JFK and Washington too) are the American presidents that I respect the most. Too bad there have been no respect deserving presidents in the past 20 years or more.
Also I forgot to mention about Roosevelt's successful New Deal programm (thanx Defrani for reminding me). He sure prooved that USA can achieve amazing success with leftist economic policies.
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Actually Truman resolved the Berlin crisis, aswell using the 2 a-bombs ever dropped in a war. This he did for reasons that it would minimize allied loses, and that probably saved a lot of japanese aswell.
Dafreni, you dissappointed me now. How can you justify a man who nuked two cities full of civilians?! I'm sure if Roosevelt had been in office at the time, that would have never happened. And let me tell you that privatehudson and I had a debate about the 2 bombs (a thread he created: which nation helped the most in WW2 or something similar), so you might check out that and see why I think the bombs were a mistake. Oh and btw PH, glad to see you softened your attitude a bit on this issue.
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privatehudson
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posted June 06, 2004 05:44 PM |
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Oh and btw PH, glad to see you softened your attitude a bit on this issue
Just being... Chameleonlike
Nah I've always thought that the Allies could have done something else/more, however I have also always thought that there were strong hints that it would never work anyway. Therefore whilst it would have been nice, I doubt there would have been any realistic difference.
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