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| Thread: *** Laelth's New Map: Bizarro *** |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted July 29, 2004 02:39 PM |
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Edited By: Laelth on 29 Jul 2004
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*** Laelth's New Map: Bizarro ***
Honestly, I wasn't planning to make any more H4 maps, but a couple of things happened that compelled me to make this one. With both "Mystic Vale" and "Eruption" I had tried to make an "unmappable" map, one that resisted set patterns of play. Both those maps, while fun in their own way, failed to accomplish the kind of randomness I wanted. What Heroes IV needs (but will never get, IMHO, because it's just too complicated) is a random map generator, and a number of us mapmakers have tried to randomize our maps a little to keep them fresh and re-playable, but our attempts, ultimately, failed. Jinxer lamented in another thread that many of the maps on the ToH Maps Page are "the same," and, frankly, I have to agree with him. The problem is that we don't have the tool (or tools) we need to make random maps that won't be hex-mappable like the standard H4 fare, but what to do? I had given up on making more maps.
Then, all of a sudden, I got this idea. The Teacher released his new map "The Giant Maze," and I checked it out. Interesting map, it is, in a lot of ways, but it's not really a maze, I thought. Then the idea for Bizarro hit me. The H4 editor won't let me randomize the locations of key structures like towns. But what I can do is randomize the path you take to get there. In fact, if I just set up a grid on a map and randomize whether each wall of each square in the grid is either open or closed, I can program in a near-infinite number of map layouts on the same map, randomly determined at the beginning of the game. You'll still know where the towns on the map are, but you'll have no clue how to get to them, nor how far you'll have to travel to get there ... i.e. a "giant maze."
That's Bizarro in a nutshell, a 10 square wide by 8 square high grid with seventeen programmed variants for paths through each side of the map, with each player's own variant determined randomly at game start. In addition, the locations of some key structures are randomized ... not towns, but gold mines, beastmaster's huts, witch's huts, war universities, level 4 creature dwellings, and portals are all randomized. Taken together, these features should create a nearly-unmappable random map, or as close to one as we can get with the current editor, and that's what Bizarro is intended to be.
The map also features magic mushrooms that give +20 movement once per day. (You need the occasional boost to navigate the maze.) Of course, the appearance of mushrooms in various locations on the map is randomized as well. Plus the map has magic cacti that offer random bonuses. Add artifact merchants, huts that allow you to break through unpassable terrain barriers, and some super-cranky bizarro-mushroom dwellers, and you've got a really fun gaming experience in this map. See the readme file for more details.
The ToH Maps Council currently has Bizarro under review, but it's available for immediate download at Laelths HOMMaps.
Enjoy!
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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MSG-1-1
Known Hero
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posted July 29, 2004 02:48 PM |
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Damn sounds nice and looks great in map editor... cant wait to try it.
Toodles
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted July 30, 2004 12:27 AM |
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Please note, if you downloaded this map earlier today (July 29, 2004), please download the map again and replace it with the newer version. No change in filename. Just fixed a stupid passability error created during decoration phase.
Apologies, as always.
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted July 31, 2004 06:38 PM |
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Edited By: Laelth on 31 Jul 2004
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Hmm ... another reason not to like the mod (besides having somebody regularly fooling with the rules of the game). Heroes IV Standard, as you may know, has a movement bug in it. If a mapmaker wants to give a player +50 movement for a day, for example, he would have to script the map to give +5000 movement. Then, in game, the player would get +50 movement, as the mapmaker intended. Evidently, and I was unaware of this until recently, the Equilibrius team fixed this bug ... and in the process made my new map, Bizarro, completely incompatible with the Equilibrius mod. I had players getting +2000 movement instead of the +20 I had intended. As such, I've had to produce two separate versions of the map: Bizarro v1.0 standard version and Bizarro v1.0 equilibrius version. They are completely incompatible with one another. Be careful, when launching the game, which version you choose. They're clearly labeled.
Both versions are now available (in the same .zip file) at Laelths HOMMaps. I'm sending both to the ToH maps council too.
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted August 01, 2004 04:35 AM |
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This may be a silly question, but since 98% of people play MOD, why would you feel the need to even have a standard version? Especially if the only difference is the that one script.
I would think it would be much easier and much less chance for map confusion and mix ups to just eliminate the Standard Version and post the MOD verison.
Just my 2 cents.
Jinxer
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted August 01, 2004 08:39 AM |
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I suppose you're right. Perhaps I'm the only one who dislikes the mod and prefers not to play it. Go ahead and do what you feel is best for the community. I'm OK with it either way.
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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balcough_dra...
Supreme Hero
unlucky? i want to pump you up
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posted August 01, 2004 05:24 PM |
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you haven't played 1 game on it laelth and you dislike mod? 
play 20 games then lets see what you say?
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slayer
whos your daddy and what does he do?
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted August 02, 2004 04:55 AM |
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Edited By: Laelth on 1 Aug 2004
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I think I've played 5 or 6 games on it now, Balcough ... only one on version 3.42, but why should that matter? Version 3.5 comes out in a couple of days. lol
I think I've lost every game I've ever played on the mod. Makes a difference when your opponents know the mechanics of the new game and you don't. I get tired of re-learning game mechanics ... i.e. how fast units move, what their damage is, what lvl. a given spell is, etc. But never mind me. I like stability and consistency. If you like a game in which the rules change every few weeks, good for you.
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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valkyrica
Supreme Hero
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posted August 02, 2004 05:12 AM |
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spoken like a true law student, daym laws never change, especially faux american ones 
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I'm Guybrush Threepwood, mighty pirate
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balcough_dra...
Supreme Hero
unlucky? i want to pump you up
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posted August 02, 2004 04:31 PM |
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well it does matter
if you want to play the barb h4 (3.0) then good luck
if you want to have balance play mod (3.42)
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slayer
whos your daddy and what does he do?
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Daddy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
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posted August 02, 2004 04:51 PM |
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted August 02, 2004 06:06 PM |
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Edited By: Laelth on 2 Aug 2004
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People managed to kill strong combat heroes just fine on Heroes IV Standard version 3.0, Balcough. Admittedly, it's easier now with the mod. I'm not saying the mod doesn't do good things. I'm saying I want it to stop changing. I want it to be stable, and it won't ever be at this rate. The mod team intends keep fiddling with the game mechanics infinitely, it seems.
And why feel the need to defend the mod, anyway? It's not like I play much. Why would anyone care that I don't like it? Perhaps we're simply blind to the idea that someone else might have a different opinion? We are, heaven forbid, shocked that someone might disagree with us? Come on. Don't get your panties in a knot. People disagree all the time. 
And Daddy, I've tried the H4Util's RMG. It's pretty awful at this stage, but it shows promise. The main problem is it's not integrated into the game. One player has to generate the random map and then spend an hour or so fixing it before it's playable. Takes away the purpose of having a RMG (allowing both players to enter the game world blind).
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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Daddy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
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posted August 02, 2004 06:22 PM |
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Quote:
And Daddy, I've tried the H4Util's RMG. It's pretty awful at this stage, but it shows promise. The main problem is it's not integrated into the game. One player has to generate the random map and then spend an hour or so fixing it before it's playable. Takes away the purpose of having a RMG (allowing both players to enter the game world blind).
-Laelth
hmm that's true...
But, well - better than nothing, eh?  (sure the point with the RMG is right - ah, foret it, I could say something mor or less constructive to the thread and good! (oh, man my english might not be as good as I thought^^)
reg
Daddy
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balcough_dra...
Supreme Hero
unlucky? i want to pump you up
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posted August 02, 2004 08:33 PM |
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i care !!!!!! laelthy boy thats why
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slayer
whos your daddy and what does he do?
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted August 10, 2004 07:53 AM |
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Version 1.2 (Official ToH Version) Released!
Over the past several days, Bizarro has undergone thorough scrutiny through online game testing. Version 1.2 is the playable result. Those of you who have started games on the standard version of either v1.1 or v1.2 have working, playable (but very poor) games in progress. However, the equilibris version of v1.0 and v1.1 both have movement bugs in them that could disrupt gameplay. If you've started games on either of these, you should either re-start or agree not to abuse excess movement capacity in the event that you get it.
Sorry for any inconvenience caused by my rather sloppy conversion of the map to equilibris. I think the map is bug-free now (though it's still relatively poor and the paths on some variants are irritatingly difficult to navigate). Version 1.2 is now available at Laelths HOMMaps. Jinxer has assured me that it will be posted at ToH as soon as I give him the green light, and I intend to do so with this version.
Warmest regards to the true lovers of the game. Bizarro is for you!
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted August 14, 2004 03:31 AM |
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fourty eight!?
get real man.. i mean.. really..
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted August 15, 2004 12:53 AM |
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Edited By: Laelth on 14 Aug 2004
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i understand your chagrin, insa. in one game, zud cleared his side of the map in 42 days, but then he ran around, got spells, collected troops, and was ready to attack on day 48 (though he could have attacked sooner). i think 48 days is a good number because it lets someone with a particularly bad variant catch up before they're attacked. in addition, it takes away any incentive for a player to try to clear his or her side of the map faster than the other guy. Bizarro is not for speed demons. it's for those who love the game.
i have no intention, at this time, of changing the day the gates begin to open, though i can and will change my mind if i'm persuaded by a reasonable argument.
-Laelth
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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valkyrica
Supreme Hero
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posted August 15, 2004 06:34 AM |
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well it's like you've made imperial prison 2 with maze-like abilities. One game averages at about 10-11 hrs (and i mean a week 4 ending one, even 3 in some cases), yours has 7 weeks in total so that means week 8, and 20 hrs may be fun to play once or twice but after that you might as well take a rest.
Think about it, if you have like 3 hrs to spare a day, it's playing for more than 1 week all your spare time.
Much like IP and dangerzone, bizzaro will be underplayed, which is too bad for you (putting all that effort into it, because i know how much time you spend on doing it) because of 2 main reasons :
1. There's the time issue which i discussed a bit above
2. There's the limitation of having to wait even if you evaluate fights better AND/OR take more chances AND/OR want to get the upper hand somehow, by catching your opponent off guard.
I see no fun in knowing exactly when the other's gonna come, taking my time, going in circles just because i know i can do it in that certain time span.
Heroes 4 takes a long time to play, that's a fact we all have to live with, so that's why faster maps are needed (by faster i mean week 3 to 5, 6 to push it a bit)
P.S. : all constructive criticism
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I'm Guybrush Threepwood, mighty pirate
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted August 15, 2004 01:24 PM |
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hours spent, i dont think is the most important issue
Firstly, randomness value gets lost, cause no matter what, you ll have plenty of time getting things done.
Heroes has much to do about speed.. like it or not. Ignore that, and you have a game with hanging old balls
And you tell me of zud game.. what about mine with gaga?
.. we re day 28 and im all done in 4-5 days, and is 1st time played too! and alrdy lost about 3-4 days in movement( also gm path ~day20 and glove after that, which is way late )
Definetely, to play bizarro again, my opponent will have to agree to make the 'boom' around day40 and play on expert too.. or ~ 36 adv
Seems you like making a map, fix the accidental bugs after and start making the next one..
How about some post-production? like clear any gameplay bugs?
.. sometimes 'it' works only in our head and in paper.
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Laelth
Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
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posted August 15, 2004 03:06 PM |
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Edited By: Laelth on 15 Aug 2004
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valky and insa. thanks for your imput. and i have to agree that the terrain layout/randomness feature loses some of its game value when there's still plenty of time for both sides to clear their half of the map. i'll think further about your comments before i say anything else.
except this: i'm hoping that bizarro opens the door to many more maps like it, ones with randomized layouts, and i'm sure that many of its progeny will be faster-playing and, perhaps, better maps. i look forward to playing them.
-Laelth
p.s. insa, play nice. when bizarro 1.0 came out, the gates opened on day 28. i changed that because it was way too early. i have been doing post-production work, and will continue to do so. nevertheless, i still may not make the changes you want. you can always play iron man if you want a faster game.
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Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC
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