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| Thread: Communism (Socialism), what is it really about? | |
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viking
Known Hero
Rock'n'Roll
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posted September 27, 2004 04:12 AM |
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Communism (Socialism), what is it really about?
Communism is a political society where everything is owned by government, and everyone gets an equal amount of everything.
This idea was first brought to life by Karl Marx, a philosopher, social scientist, historian and revolutionary, when he wrote his book "The Communist Manifesto". He thought of communism as a rebellion of all hard working workers in factories that are being paid low wages in rich countries such as England.
Then nothing happened for over 30 years. Then in 1917, a russian revolutionary, named Lenin (Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov), rose against the russian government and overthrown czar Nicholas II. Later the czar and his family were executed. After the revolution there was a civil war that lasted until 1924 when the Bolsheviks (the Russian Communist party) and their leader, Lenin, won and established a new government. And thats how it all started.
Communism was finally formed. In the Soviet Union, at the time the only communist country, new rules were being introduced. Religion was prohibited. Rich had their properties taken away, poor got a house, a job and a car, or were killed.
The only thing that Marx did not predict is that the revolution was in a poor country, not a rich one.
The Soviet Union lasted until 1991. In between it had spread communism from China to Cuba. Most of the spreading happened after WWII. In 1991, communism, in most countries, was beaten. It was because of the human vices. In a communist society, people work in their profession and have equal amount of everything, everything is shared. But people are not all that good. Some people work hard, while others don't do anything. This would destroy the society because then noone would work.
Now many people say that communism is bad. I personally think that it is not (or at least socialism isn't). Communism was meant to make people happy, and wipe out thr greediness. I live in a country that use to be a socialist republic, and I have noticed the changes of peoples feelings, of the mood of the society. Before 1991, Yugoslavia was a friendly place. Whenever I walked the streets, people would smile or nod. As I go now, people look at me like an object that should not be approached, a very dangerous thing. That is what capitalism does, it destroys peoples feelings. Communism however was meant to make us all feel better to eachother.
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One powerful hero is good, two is better
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Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
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posted September 27, 2004 04:46 AM |
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I agrea with you, coming from ex-Jugoslavija, but i think that the war is the true reason people look at you that way. The war and everithing that comes with it.
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And now to the next post.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted September 27, 2004 06:32 AM |
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Hmm...
I really wish Marx was still alive today. He leaves many unanswered questions to his philosophy. I personally feel that he held back some of his ideas to keep from being executed by the royal family.
Ah well, here's an old thread of mine where we spoke more on the subject of communism(socialism):
 http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=11080
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted September 27, 2004 11:09 AM |
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i believe that neither Democracy or Communism exist.
Democracy is a government owned soley by the people by definition, so essentially Democracy is Communism. If the governernment is the people, there is no government, as in Communism. The USA, Australia and all the others are only Partially Democratic.
Communism, many people simply dismiss it as a socio-political system which never worked, and never will work. This is not true, however because it has never been. During the Russian revolution, inspired by Marx, Leon Trotsky and Joseph Stalin were largely in control, and using propaganda eventually Trotsky who was more on the Communist side was abolished. Without significant hindrance now Stalin took large control over the people of Russia and turned it into a tyrranical Totalitarianist state. Anyone read animal farm? this is a good example, and that in the end all the wealth was with those with the leaders and bourgeoisie, and the proleteriats were left with next to nothing. But also i think that Communism would be very hard to achieve, as it requires no corruption, which is only human. I think the concept is fair, but it lakes a motivator.
So in essence Communism was never tried.
I also do not agree with Capitolism. Because tell me that its fair if the person who sells a chair makes much, much, much more money that the person who makes it?! The owners of production make millions while the working class slave away. Wealth should be earned based on how hard you work and the importance of the work.
well thats my view on the matter!
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John says to live above hell.
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BoogieMan
Famous Hero
The John of Spades
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posted September 27, 2004 11:16 AM |
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Quote:
Communism however was meant to make us all feel better to eachother.
No offense, viking, but this is really amusing!Comrade, people living in communist countries could barely trust their own relatives because there was always the danger of one of them being an informer for the Security! This matter is taken lightly and often joked about, but there have been many cases of people being ratted out by close friends or first degree relatives (this is not folklore solid evidence has been found in the Romanian Security archives).
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The BoogieMan wrote ... and saw that it was good.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted September 27, 2004 01:54 PM |
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Yay! My kind of topic :)
First, I think a distinction between the terms communism and socialism is necessary. Socialism is considered to be the system taking place during the transition between capitalism and communism, where all means of production are owned by the people (society), but still a ranking device is kept in place in order to ensure workers’ wage as proportional to their efficiency. Now communism, would be the highly utopian society, with the popular slogan “From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs.” coming to effectual realization. Communism has never been achieved so far.
On the other hand, the form of governance practiced by Stalin in the Soviet Union is considered by many to be a rape of socialism, and many leftist thinkers simply call it Stalinism. Technically it was socialism, since all the means of production were property of the society, but the totalitarian ideology that came with it, really had no grounds in the socialist theories as developed by Marx.
Btw, Leon Trotsky was truly a strong vocal proponent of socialism and fierce critic of Stalinism. However, some of his main points support aggressive communist expansionism, and no one knows if it would’ve been any better if he hadn’t lost by Stalin. Still, Trotskists today form a small gang of intellectuals, but with no significant political influence, mainly due to their idealist talk, and no action.
Many people believe that socialism didn’t function because a fundamental fallacy within it. (As viking said, people share everything, so they are not motivated to work hard.) However, it’s a fact that even today people don’t own neither what they produce nor their tools for production, and yet they still don’t lag in efficiency. The key is that a motivation factor is needed (i.e. salaries) as well as a system of democratic check and balance moving all the way from the base to the top of the socialist hierarchy, both in government and in production. That’s something that socialism doesn’t prevent, and in fact is the same reason that drives the toilers of the present capitalist model.
In addition, socialism influences the global mentality in the community. It is a dramatic change of values, upholding the power of community, unity, education, equality, labor, as opposed to the capitalistic individualism, profit, commercialism, career, progress and status. War was maybe just an additional reason for change in people’s mental matrix in Yugoslavia, but the drift of values happened in post-communist countries where no wars took place.
As I said, the world saw very different models of socialism in the past century, ranging from the Yugoslavian one (the most liberal), to the totalitarian regimes in Romania, USSR, and extremes such as N. Korea. Therefore, we cannot pick neither of those as a true equivalent of the “original socialism”.
As to the democracy–communism “opposition”, I can only say there isn’t any. Democracy is system of governance, while communism, more strictly taken, is a system of economy. Logically though, democracy is supposed to be ideologically closer to communism, since they both emphasize the community, rather than the power (property) of one or more individuals. If applying the capitalist logic to the order of government, then the most effective one would be the dictatorship, i.e. when the state will be owned by one man. (Since, as the capitalists say, owning provides for the wish to maximize the efficiency) Needless to say, that is one chapter of human history hopefully left behind. Let’s hope we’ll do the same with the other one soon. 
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted September 27, 2004 02:11 PM |
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Boogie Man: This has nothing to do with communism (or maybe it do; I'll come back to that later). The Soviet "Communism" had more in common with fascism than with communism, imo...
As for whether or not Soviet was a communist state, I think this is a good place to apply Plato's ideas about the idea.
Plato said that there were an idea for everything, and that what existed on earth was only a copy of the idea, and the copy could never be as good as the idea. All we could do was strive to be as close to it as possible.
Now, look at communism. How should we define it? Should we define it as the idea "communism" that was described by amongst others Marx, or should we see it as the way it has been practised in countries throughout the world?
My opinion is that communism is the idea. The form of government in, say, Russia pre 1990, was more a Stalinist and Leninist government. Lenin introduced the idea of a class within the class-less society; the elite, that would fight for the revolution before it came (I believe he called the elite "the spearhead of the revolution"; educated men and women with leadership skills dedicated to the revolution), and lead the communist society after the revolution.
A most un-communist idea, if you ask me, but most pragmatic; it wouldn't be easy to overthrow the tzar's empire if you didn't have someone to lead the masses.
Then came Stalin. He introduced much into communism that hadn't been there before, amongst other things nationalism and the fascist principle of control of every part of society. It's a well-known fact that Hitler and Stalin, though they hated each other, learned much from each other during the 30's.
Besides, Marx never (or so I've heard) mentioned the state in his works; he always used the term "the people"; the state was introduced by later communists.
It is also said that the young Marx is much less authoritarian than the older Marx, but since I've not read any of his works apart from the Communist Manifesto, I can't say for sure...
I think, that in may ways, social-democartism is better than socialism/communism. the problem with social-democrats is that they have a nasty tendency of doing the right's bidding, in may cases betraying their socialist/communist/anarchist fellows (the Spartakist rebellion...)
Btw, one of the reasons the russian revolution ended up so twisted, could be that Russia at this time hadn't moved into the democratic/capitalist society yet; it was still a feudal state. There were few industrial workers compared to farmers (I think Russia had abolished serf-dom a few years before the Revolution, at least in name...). And, according to Marx, communism wouldn't work without society working through all fases of history.
Another reason could be that the western powers (among them England, Canada, France, the US) attacked the soviet union once they had conquered the Germans. This may also have been one of the reasons why Stalin didn't like the Americans and British very much, and therefor did his share top start off the cold war...
Sorry about the abrupt ending, but I didn't have time to finish properly...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted September 28, 2004 12:32 AM |
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HC Communist archives
If you wanna see where you rank on the political axis, take this test. Followed by a small discussion of communism and socialism.
The political Compass quiz
A thread about the Nordic system of welfare, essentialy a socialist practice, adopted by capitalist societies.
Nordic system of welfare
A socialist model applied to the field of art menagement. Thread created by me. 
Socialization of art
A thread where minimal wage is discussed, capitalism is criticized  , and elements of leftist and rightist economic theories are confronted.
Minimal Wage
Consis’ thread, little communism, little affirmative action, little nationalism. Guaranteed to satisfy all tastes.
Affirmative Action
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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viking
Known Hero
Rock'n'Roll
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posted September 28, 2004 02:22 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Communism however was meant to make us all feel better to eachother.
No offense, viking, but this is really amusing!Comrade, people living in communist countries could barely trust their own relatives because there was always the danger of one of them being an informer for the Security! This matter is taken lightly and often joked about, but there have been many cases of people being ratted out by close friends or first degree relatives (this is not folklore solid evidence has been found in the Romanian Security archives).
In capitalism people hate eachother because of one being better than the other. In capitalism peoples' minds are too obsessed with work and how are they gonna survive fighting through life for money and jobs and normal life. In communism, even though its kinda brainwashing, you still don't have to worry about any of those much. Before my parnets were relaxed, now they work their *** off just to keep our lives steady.
I will add more later on.
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One powerful hero is good, two is better
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted September 28, 2004 05:22 AM |
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Marx, Shmarx.
If that bozo was born today, he would have been a capitalist.
Man oh man. His ideas formulated during the age of coal, when the difference between haves and have nots was far and away greater than what it is today in industrialized nations.
If he'd been born in the age of oil, in the age of cheap and plentiful energy, in the age of the power of the middle class, in the age of said middle class's disposable income, there is no doubt in my mind his Manifeso would've read, "The Capitalist Credenza...a guide to making it big in this world."
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viking
Known Hero
Rock'n'Roll
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posted September 28, 2004 01:51 PM |
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Quote:
Marx, Shmarx.
If that bozo was born today, he would have been a capitalist.
Man oh man. His ideas formulated during the age of coal, when the difference between haves and have nots was far and away greater than what it is today in industrialized nations.
If he'd been born in the age of oil, in the age of cheap and plentiful energy, in the age of the power of the middle class, in the age of said middle class's disposable income, there is no doubt in my mind his Manifeso would've read, "The Capitalist Credenza...a guide to making it big in this world."
But he was born in the industrial age, and that was his idea, and thats history and you cant change it.
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One powerful hero is good, two is better
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted September 29, 2004 03:33 PM |
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Quote:
His ideas formulated during the age of coal, when the difference between haves and have nots was far and away greater than what it is today in industrialized nations.
(..)
in the age of the power of the middle class,
I think you may have under-estimated the diffenences between rich and poor. Go read some Michael More, or Naomi Klein! Or any UN report concerning poverty, for that matter...
He'd still be a communist...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 13, 2005 02:47 AM |
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Guardian's Grove Link
Here's a link to a thread in Guardian's Grove forum where communism is discussed in great detail:
http://guardiansgrove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=679&page=1&pp=20
If you decide to contribute to the discussion, try to ignore that Stardragon fellow. He's a bit annoying at times. But on the other hand he has a nice signature with all those sexy Chun Li poses from the Streetfighter series.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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pitsu
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 13, 2005 11:06 AM |
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Edited By: pitsu on 13 May 2005
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In capitalism people hate eachother because of one being better than the other.
Not neccessarily. You hate if you are close minded. However if one is better because of better use on his/her skills, give him/her respect and learn from them. Could draw a parallel with sport.
Quote:
In capitalism peoples' minds are too obsessed with work and how are they gonna survive fighting through life for money and jobs and normal life. In communism, even though its kinda brainwashing, you still don't have to worry about any of those much.
I know. It is easier to be brainwashed and let all thinking and decisions to be done by ideological leaders. Fight for survival is kind of cornerstone for natural evolution and progression. In post-communistic countries it is indeed very fierce because the change is recent and people are not used to get so little help and stright directions from goverment.Therefore people are more stressed. Still, I think it will pass when everyone finds his/her niche and the work efficiency and state income increases. Goverment, of course, may not completely ignore social welfare of not-so-successful people though. Everyone should have chances to find own life even if he/she fails in first attempt.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2005 06:05 PM |
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Edited By: Conan on 13 May 2005
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Consis,
Thanks for reviving this thread. I read the first couple of posts by Svarog and Terje with great interest.
Good material! 
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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