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| Thread: Extremist Parties in our Midst | |
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privatehudson
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posted May 11, 2005 11:29 PM |
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Extremist Parties in our Midst
I was debating with a BNP (that's British National Party to the non-Brits, think far right) supporter on another forum earlier today which got me thinking, which is a rare event I know, but bear with me
Now a lot of you here clearly won't know too much about the BNP. In the past though Nick Griffin (current leader) and the party were very much involved in denying the holocaust. Griffin once went on record attacking David Irving (a prominent holocaust revisionist author) as not going far enough in his revisionism! The party's history is filled with links to groups like Combat 18 who have long records of violence against minorities. It's previous leader Tyndall all but worshipped Hitler and stated his intention to carry out many of Hitler's racial laws if the BNP ever got into power. Since Griffin took over though he has attempted to make the party electable in a number of ways.
Returning to that BNP supporter again, his arguments that I want to address basically boiled down to:
1) Europeans are white, always have been, always should be
2) Islam is a dangerous religion with an inferior culture and therefore should be banned. You cannot be Islamic and British.
3) Multi-culturalism is a failiure, this is the fault of the Islamic/African/Asian people
4) "British" should be defined as of a european background and christian/athiest/agnostic/Jewish persuasion. This rules out for example Albanians who are from Europe but predominantly Muslim, or certain Russians even if they originated in European Russia.
5) All non-British (defined above) should be paid to leave the country to return to their country of origin. After 5 years they will be flung out if they don't already leave.
6) Any non-British people or those of mixed descent will be thrown out of the country should they be charged with a criminal offense.
Many of these are the same as or similar to BNP manifesto aims
The thought that strikes me is that though the rhetoric and logic has changed targets, the extremism still remains. The policy of openly hating Jews obviously got them nowhere, Judaism is too close to Christianity, too intertwined with european civilisation, and recently attacks on it are too linked to revisionist neo-nazi groups and ideology to get widespread support against it. However, they know they will get some collateral out of attacking Islam. In the wake of 9/11, Madrid and so on anti-islamic feeling amongst the population is bound to rise. I get the feeling that the BNP are merely jumping onto the bandwagon here. They've changed targets and hidden their hatred a little more carefully, but the underlying racism and intolerance still remains. The above points all seem to make sense at first glance to some people predisposed to wanting to believe them, but after a quick check they're clearly rubbish.
Europe has never really been exclusively white and never will be. Predominantly yes, but not exclusively. The Roman and Greek Empires for example brought back to Europe many asians and africans to marry and interbreed with the white "natives" of the continent. Many "european" peoples as we now know them originate in Asia or have genetic links to other continents. People certainly look upon current Islamic culture and presume it barbaric and backward, but history tells a different story. During the early medieval period for example it was Islam that developed much faster and further. For example in mathematics, medicine and astronomy they were far ahead of their European, Christian opponents (though to be fair the christians excelled in other ways).
They tend to base their facts on Islam's "danger" by playing on the events like 9/11 and the actions in Palestine coupled with his impression that Britain is destined to become a divided nation of ethnic areas where anglo-saxons end up minorities in our own country. In his eyes the Muslim minorities of today will become the majorities of tomorrow whereupon they will force their "disgusting" culture on our country. I've seen BNP members describe european/western civilisation as being vastly superior to all other types and responsible for all we know of as progress, again flying in the face of our history. This echoes the twin calls of a typical BNP/Extreme "Nationalist" campaign though, fear and ignorance of that which is different. Their attacks also play onto the fear that "muslim" culture is inherently unable and entirely unwilling to adapt into British society. It's not quite "they're stealing our jobs" but it reaches out to the same inner fears of such a phrase.
Referring back to the term revisionism for a moment, revisionism is basically attempts to rewrite history, and in it's most used currently about authors and people who deny or diminish the events of the holocaust. No longer revising history here the BNP instead choose to revise British history. Their stated aims have included rewriting the British Empire period with a "nationalist" slant, which one can imagine would consist of denying that the British did anything particularly wrong during the period. Staunch BNP supporters tend to believe that the Empire was justified because it improved Britain (which itself is highly debateable other than in terms of prestige and position) and it's affect on others was irrelevant to the analysis.
I mentioned the BNP of the past also under Tyndall, and under Tyndall the party was full of thugs and convicted criminals, supported by the likes of Combat-18 (neo-nazi hate group) and so on, and now I'd like to come back to it as I feel it's important. Like many far-right groups their recent history has been to ditch these very extreme elements and move in the direction of persuading peope that they are in fact now a regular party with a very electable agenda. To some degree under Griffin this has seen some sucess, and despite Griffin's own dubious past (he formerly denied the holocaust ever happened for example) the BNP has enjoyed local council sucess in areas of racial tension like Bradford and Milwall. Despite this though the party shows a curious habit of mirroring Nazi like tactics amongst it's leaders with many still having convictions for violent crimes or fraud, and some even election fraud. When in office it has tended to break it's promises they made and fail to even turn up half the time in some council seats. Many areas under their control have also seen a rise in racially motivated crimes during their time in office.
You might ask why worry?
Well the BNP got 800,000 votes in the last european elections, and just 6 days ago got 194,000 votes in the General Election whilst standing in only 112 seats (around a 5th of the total). To put that in perspective that would be like a million Americans in just 10 states alone voting for a real extremist leader. They didn't come any closer than 9,000 votes and 30% from winning any of those seats, but the sheer volume of support across the country shows that whilst they may currently be an extremist party, the future is uncertain. It's my view that this at least in part is because the BNP have taken on a very populist issue in immigration levels, and are using their hardline stance on it to draw in people afraid the mainstream parties are unwilling or unable to take action on it, and lying to us over it. This can be seen in the BNP's tactics and speeches, talking of an "invasion" and of "surrender" to foriegners.
Of course immigration is an important issue, and for many the main parties reluctance to discuss the issue clearly is a sign that the situation is worse than they claim. History tells us that when people feel the time and situation is desperate enough, they will likely turn to desperate solutions. Upon this the BNP rely on, they thrive on playing up the immigration fears, and push racial tension forward. The BNP expect that at some point in the future people will turn to them as the only viable alternative to the problems that Labour and the Conservatives cause. We would like to think in our democracies that this could never occur, but I'd remind you all that however he perverted the system, Hitler did come to power in a democratic country through precisely this kind of mix of populist scare-mongering and desperate times that drove people into voting for him.
Could it happen here or in another country with extremist parties? I don't personally know, but I do know that we have to do all we can to prevent it from happening. The BNP and their equivalent are dangerous extremists sheltering under the protection of nationalism and freedom of speech, unless we recognise them for what they are educate people about them, there's still a chance, however slim that they will come to realistic power.
If this thread and post has a message it's this. When we in the UK think of WW2 we say "never again". We should not just say this, we should ensure it, and stopping the BNP is just one way we must do this. In the wake of the 60th anniversary of VE day, we owe it to those that fought against facism and Nazi ideology to prevent it's future rise.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Consis
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Of Ruby
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posted May 12, 2005 05:39 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 12 May 2005
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Hmm...
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I get the feeling that the BNP are merely jumping onto the bandwagon here.
Couldn't agree more. As of late, I've seen this tactic as an Osama bin Laden trait. Quite laughable until you see how many actual votes come in to the rally of it eh? Anti-Islamic public opinion seems to reflect your information. I've been following the last Prime Minister election with interest.
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Like many far-right groups their recent history has been to ditch these very extreme elements and move in the direction of persuading peope that they are in fact now a regular party with a very electable agenda.
This is exactly what some upper-echelon American white supremecists are trying as of late.
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6 days ago got 194,000 votes in the General Election whilst standing in only 112 seats (around a 5th of the total).
This was quite worrisome from where I sit. It made me realize that there is a good chance for racially-motivated hate crimes to occur in Britain. Methinks we won't hear much more until some sort of future horrific act such as loading up captured inferiors and taking them out to sea to be thrown overboard.
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History tells us that when people feel the time and situation is desperate enough, they will likely turn to desperate solutions.
Quite right. These times call for a leader of special quality looking to dissipate the unjustified fears people have. Methinks Blair doesn't do enough to champion this cause. He's too focused on the British economy.
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I remind you all that however he perverted the system, Hitler did come to power in a democratic country through precisely this kind of mix of populist scare-mongering and desperate times that drove people into voting for him.
No, not quite. Your country has no treaty of Versailles. A large portion of the 40 or more percent that Hitler got from that first democratic election was based largely on the national disagreement with this treaty. Had there been no treaty then Hitler would have lost half of that voting percentage. And all that was before assassinating his political opponents. Britain is in no danger of such a thing.
The only real danger in my mind lies with those select few seen as racially inferior. The closest the KKK of America ever came to gaining any real political power was nothing more than a Mayor I believe. But once LBJ's good buddy J. Edgar Hoover played his illegal harrassment game with their members after a few racially motivated hate crimes occured down south then they lost all their political seats never to regain such popular public interest. And that's what it takes too; as we Americans have learned. Some poor person of some sort of different skin color will ultimately be murdered before the country finally realizes that something must be done about it. Methinks this might still occur in the U.K.
For Americans, we look back and never forget the dreadful murders that took place in the name of racial hatred. We have memorials, plaques, and even some witnesses still alive today who all help remind this country of the danger of such philosophy. Tis the philosophy of racism and the victims are almost always innocent. Perhaps if we sent the U.K. a few hundred tapes and books on the matter then their fear might turn to hope.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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terje_the_ma...
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posted May 12, 2005 06:02 PM |
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No, not quite. Your country has no treaty of Versailles.
Doesn't certain rightwing extremist nationalists see the British EU membership as a kind of a metaphorical Versailles Treaty? Or is thatcomparison too far-fetched?
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted May 12, 2005 06:12 PM |
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Methinks we won't hear much more until some sort of future horrific act such as loading up captured inferiors and taking them out to sea to be thrown overboard.
I doubt the BNP would go quite that far, but they do wish to load planes full on non-brits and return them to their country of ethnic origin.
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No, not quite. Your country has no treaty of Versailles.
Yes and no. Tied to europe, which is especially unpopular in some aspects of our country there are some that see that many of the treaties signed there are little different (edit: Terje is right in that respect). Times are not as desperate as Germany under versailles, but that was my entire point, if it comes to the stage where they are then people will turn to scum like the BNP in ever increasing numbers.
As for racial violence, this is currently occuring in the UK on various levels, including murder, and is well publicised, but support for the BNP continues to either increase or remain steady. I don't think it's a case necessarily of education about past racial hatreds, but education about the dangers of the BNP and other extremist groups. A more realistic option would be to deal directly with the problems that drive people into the BNP's arms.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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