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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: How To Steal an Election: Part Two
Thread: How To Steal an Election: Part Two This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Laelth
Laelth


Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
posted October 19, 2004 04:05 AM
Edited By: Laelth on 18 Oct 2004

How To Steal an Election:

I've just heard a rumor that's very frightening.  What I heard is that Karl Rove, Bush's long-time friend and Chief Election Strategist,  plans to contest every single state that's even remotely close in the 2004 election (and there could be upwards of 15 of them). If he can keep these election challenges in the courts until Jan. 20, the House of Representatives gets to choose an "interim President." No law prevents the Republican-controlled congress from choosing George W. Bush. Thus, with Bush established as the interim President, in order to insure stability and to protect the Constitution, it's likely that the courts will rule for Bush and that he will be safely re-selected as President.

Rove needs to be able to argue that the voting process was screwed up. Already evidence is mounting of a number of voting "irregularities" across the country.  (essay on Florida 2004 election problems HERE)

Please, folks, distribute this theory far and wide. When (and if) John Kerry has won the election on Nov. 2, the Republicans will then argue on Nov. 3 (with utter indignation) that the election has been stolen.  Nobody will believe that this was part of Rove's plan all along. In order to thwart this plan, we need the American people to be aware that these voting irregularities were not an accident but, rather, a cleverly-designed plan to insure that George W. Bush would be re-selected to be President of the United States (regardless of how the people actually voted).

Spread the word ...

I certainly hope I'm wrong about this. But if I'm not, the American expiriment in democracy is in jeopardy.

Read more about Karl Rove and his tactics HERE.  Take a look at the 8th entry in this thread, the essay entitled "Karl Rove in a Corner.

Remember to vote on Nov. 2.

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--corrected a couple of typos.
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Wolfman
Wolfman


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted October 19, 2004 04:12 AM

*cough*
Someone's a little paranoid...
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Laelth
Laelth


Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
posted October 19, 2004 04:19 AM

Ahem, I'll say this again ...

*****
I certainly hope I'm wrong about this. But if I'm not, the American expiriment in democracy is in jeopardy.
*****

We'll see what happens on Nov. 3.  But I won't be surprized if ...

-Laelth
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Khayman
Khayman


Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
posted October 19, 2004 05:26 AM

Khayman's Idea

I think that this would be a great opportunity for the Trial Lawyers to perform some 'pro bono' work.  What do you think, Laelth?  
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Laelth
Laelth


Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
posted October 19, 2004 06:22 AM
Edited By: Laelth on 19 Oct 2004

Indeed.  Both sides have a ton of lawyers lined up.  As you might expect, the trial lawyers support the Dems.  The corporate lawyers (the ones that make the really big money) support the Repubs.

Nothing new there.

And, I might add, the trial lawyers are doing the work pro bono (many of them).  The corporate lawyers, on the other hand, are getting paid ... well.

Nothing new there either.

-Laelth
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted October 19, 2004 07:05 AM

LoL

Anyone up for watching some old X-files re-runs? Karl Rove might be an alien, you never can tell these days.

p.s. this post was part of a highly contrived plot to overthrow the government and take over the world
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Laelth
Laelth


Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
posted October 21, 2004 04:31 PM

Excellent (admittedly partisan) essay:

Quote:
The art of stealing elections

By Robert Kuttner  |  October 20, 2004

Boston Globe

THE REPUBLICANS are out to steal the 2004 election -- before, during, and after Election Day. Before Election Day, they are employing such dirty tricks as improper purges of voter rolls, use of dummy registration groups that tear up Democratic registrations, and the suppression of Democratic efforts to sign up voters, especially blacks and students.

On Election Day, Republicans will attempt to intimidate minority voters by having poll watchers threaten criminal prosecution if something is technically amiss with their ID, and they will again use technical mishaps to partisan advantage.

But the most serious assault on democracy itself is likely to come after Election Day.

Here is a flat prediction: If neither candidate wins decisively, the Bush campaign will contrive enough court challenges in enough states so that we won't know the winner election night.

The right stumbled on a gambit in 2000, which could become standard operating procedure in close elections: If the election ends up in the courts, all courts eventually lead to the Supreme Court, which, as we learned, can overrule state courts -- and pick the president.

This year is even more ripe for abuse, because the 2002 Help America Vote Act, a "reform" written substantially to Republican specifications, toughened ID requirements. It also gave voters a right to cast "provisional" ballots if their names are missing from the rolls. Good impulse, but someone, ultimately a court, must decide whether they should have been permitted to vote, and that's almost impossible to resolve on Election Day.

In addition, states are experimenting with a variety of new voting systems, to avoid a repeat of the technical glitches that made it easy for Republicans to steal Florida in 2000. And experiment is the right word; much of this technology isn't ready for prime time.

In our voting systems, we now have a witches' brew of 19th-century local amateurism married to 21st-century technology that is not yet reliable. The technical mess functions as an enabler of the assault on voting.

There was a time when Democrats were the party that occasionally stole elections. Lyndon Johnson very likely stole his 1948 victory in the Texas Democratic primary, which launched his Senate career. President Kennedy actually joked about the notorious vote rigging in Chicago, which quite possibly tipped Illinois to him in 1960. (He would have won the Electoral College very narrowly without Illinois.)

It was Richard Nixon, that scoundrel's scoundrel, who resisted the temptation to mount a court challenge to the Illinois result because he felt the country couldn't take it. Imagine longing for the days when we had Republican leadership as principled as Nixon's.

But the days of urban Democratic machines that voted dead people are long gone. The press has reported isolated abuses, such as a few Florida snowbirds trying to register in more than one state. But any fair comparison of election abuses this year will reveal that one party is expending energy to register as many supporters as possible and assure that that their votes will be counted, while the other one is registering its supporters but also systematically trying to keep the opposition's votes from being cast. There is simply no comparable Democratic program of ballot suppression.

Maybe we should invite election observers from Afghanistan and Iraq.

We may not know the winner until the Electoral College meets in December, and perhaps not even then if contested elections are still tied up in court. It's not even clear whether the ultimate arbiter would be the Supreme Court or the House of Representatives.

If the courts took away the people's right to choose the president, and George Bush in effect stole two elections in a row, this would surely produce a constitutional crisis and a crisis of legitimacy.

But what if they gave a constitutional crisis and nobody came? The most ominous outcome of all would be public passivity, echoing 2000. That would confirm that the theft of our democracy was real.

Call me partisan, but the best insurance against this horrific outcome would be a Kerry win big enough so that even Karl Rove would not dare to mount this maneuver. A razor-thin race virtually invites it. And if Bush wins handily, our democracy will have other problems.

Robert Kuttner is co-editor of The American Prospect. His column appears regularly in the Globe.


Note that Republicans control both houses of the state legislatures in these key states:  Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Missouri.  It's the state legislatures that certify the state's electors.  If the disputes Kuttner describes are still in court in mid-December it's likely that these state legislatures would approve the Republican slate of electors and send them to Washington to vote.  All Rove has to do is stall the court battles, and we can kiss our democracy good-bye.

These are truly, trying times.

-Laelth
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Laelth
Laelth


Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
posted November 07, 2004 01:39 AM
Edited By: Laelth on 6 Nov 2004

LOL!  Well, perhaps it's not over yet.  More evidence of widespread election fraud.

Quote:
Evidence Mounts That The Vote Was Hacked

by Thom Hartmann

When I spoke with Jeff Fisher this morning (Saturday, November 06, 2004), the Democratic candidate for the U.S. House of Representatives from Florida's 16th District said he was waiting for the FBI to show up. Fisher has evidence, he says, not only that the Florida election was hacked, but of who hacked it and how. And not just this year, he said, but that these same people had previously hacked the Democratic primary race in 2002 so that Jeb Bush would not have to run against Janet Reno, who presented a real threat to Jeb, but instead against Bill McBride, who Jeb beat.

"It was practice for a national effort," Fisher told me.

And some believe evidence is accumulating that the national effort happened on November 2, 2004.

The State of Florida, for example, publishes a county-by-county record of votes cast and people registered to vote by party affiliation. Net denizen Kathy Dopp compiled the official state information into a table, available at http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm, and noticed something startling.

Also See:

Florida Secretary of State Presidential Results by County 11/02/2004 (.pdf)
Florida Secretary of State County Registration by Party 2/9/2004 (.pdf)

While the heavily scrutinized touch-screen voting machines seemed to produce results in which the registered Democrat/Republican ratios largely matched the Kerry/Bush vote, in Florida's counties using results from optically scanned paper ballots - fed into a central tabulator PC and thus vulnerable to hacking – the results seem to contain substantial anomalies.

In Baker County, for example, with 12,887 registered voters, 69.3% of them Democrats and 24.3% of them Republicans, the vote was only 2,180 for Kerry and 7,738 for Bush, the opposite of what is seen everywhere else in the country where registered Democrats largely voted for Kerry.

In Dixie County, with 4,988 registered voters, 77.5% of them Democrats and a mere 15% registered as Republicans, only 1,959 people voted for Kerry, but 4,433 voted for Bush.

The pattern repeats over and over again - but only in the counties where optical scanners were used. Franklin County, 77.3% registered Democrats, went 58.5% for Bush. Holmes County, 72.7% registered Democrats, went 77.25% for Bush.

Yet in the touch-screen counties, where investigators may have been more vigorously looking for such anomalies, high percentages of registered Democrats generally equaled high percentages of votes for Kerry. (I had earlier reported that county size was a variable – this turns out not to be the case. Just the use of touch-screens versus optical scanners.)

More visual analysis of the results can be seen at http://us together.org/election04/FloridaDataStats.htm, and http://www.rubberbug.com/temp/Florida2004chart.htm. Note the trend line – the only variable that determines a swing toward Bush was the use of optical scan machines.

One possible explanation for this is the "Dixiecrat" theory, that in Florida white voters (particularly the rural ones) have been registered as Democrats for years, but voting Republican since Reagan. Looking at the 2000 statistics, also available on Dopp's site, there are similar anomalies, although the trends are not as strong as in 2004. But some suggest the 2000 election may have been questionable in Florida, too.

One of the people involved in Dopp's analysis noted that it may be possible to determine the validity of the "rural Democrat" theory by comparing Florida's white rural counties to those of Pennsylvania, another swing state but one that went for Kerry, as the exit polls there predicted. Interestingly, the Pennsylvania analysis, available at http://ustogether.org/election04/PA_vote_patt.htm, doesn't show the same kind of swings as does Florida, lending credence to the possibility of problems in Florida.

Even more significantly, Dopp had first run the analysis while filtering out smaller (rural) counties, and still found that the only variable that accounted for a swing toward Republican voting was the use of optical-scan machines, whereas counties with touch-screen machines generally didn't swing - regardless of size.

Others offer similar insights, based on other data. A professor at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, noted that in Florida the vote to raise the minimum wage was approved by 72%, although Kerry got 48%. "The correlation between voting for the minimum wage increase and voting for Kerry isn't likely to be perfect," he noted, "but one would normally expect that the gap - of 1.5 million votes - to be far smaller than it was."

While all of this may or may not be evidence of vote tampering, it again brings the nation back to the question of why several states using electronic voting machines or scanners programmed by private, for-profit corporations and often connected to modems produced votes inconsistent with exit poll numbers.

Those exit poll results have been a problem for reporters ever since Election Day.

Election night, I'd been doing live election coverage for WDEV, one of the radio stations that carries my syndicated show, and, just after midnight, during the 12:20 a.m. Associated Press Radio News feed, I was startled to hear the reporter detail how Karen Hughes had earlier sat George W. Bush down to inform him that he'd lost the election. The exit polls were clear: Kerry was winning in a landslide. "Bush took the news stoically," noted the AP report.

But then the computers reported something different. In several pivotal states.

Conservatives see a conspiracy here: They think the exit polls were rigged.

Dick Morris, the infamous political consultant to the first Clinton campaign who became a Republican consultant and Fox News regular, wrote an article for The Hill, the publication read by every political junkie in Washington, DC, in which he made a couple of brilliant points.

"Exit Polls are almost never wrong," Morris wrote. "They eliminate the two major potential fallacies in survey research by correctly separating actual voters from those who pretend they will cast ballots but never do and by substituting actual observation for guesswork in judging the relative turnout of different parts of the state."

He added: "So, according to ABC-TVs exit polls, for example, Kerry was slated to carry Florida, Ohio, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, and Iowa, all of which Bush carried. The only swing state the network had going to Bush was West Virginia, which the president won by 10 points."

Yet a few hours after the exit polls were showing a clear Kerry sweep, as the computerized vote numbers began to come in from the various states the election was called for Bush.

How could this happen?

On the CNBC TV show "Topic A With Tina Brown," several months ago, Howard Dean had filled in for Tina Brown as guest host. His guest was Bev Harris, the Seattle grandmother who started www.blackboxvoting.org from her living room. Bev pointed out that regardless of how votes were tabulated (other than hand counts, only done in odd places like small towns in Vermont), the real "counting" is done by computers. Be they Diebold Opti-Scan machines, which read paper ballots filled in by pencil or ink in the voter's hand, or the scanners that read punch cards, or the machines that simply record a touch of the screen, in all cases the final tally is sent to a "central tabulator" machine.

That central tabulator computer is a Windows-based PC.

"In a voting system," Harris explained to Dean on national television, "you have all the different voting machines at all the different polling places, sometimes, as in a county like mine, there's a thousand polling places in a single county. All those machines feed into the one machine so it can add up all the votes. So, of course, if you were going to do something you shouldn't to a voting machine, would it be more convenient to do it to each of the 4000 machines, or just come in here and deal with all of them at once?"

Dean nodded in rhetorical agreement, and Harris continued. "What surprises people is that the central tabulator is just a PC, like what you and I use. It's just a regular computer."

"So," Dean said, "anybody who can hack into a PC can hack into a central tabulator?"

Harris nodded affirmation, and pointed out how Diebold uses a program called GEMS, which fills the screen of the PC and effectively turns it into the central tabulator system. "This is the official program that the County Supervisor sees," she said, pointing to a PC that was sitting between them loaded with Diebold's software.

Bev then had Dean open the GEMS program to see the results of a test election. They went to the screen titled "Election Summary Report" and waited a moment while the PC "adds up all the votes from all the various precincts," and then saw that in this faux election Howard Dean had 1000 votes, Lex Luthor had 500, and Tiger Woods had none. Dean was winning.

"Of course, you can't tamper with this software," Harris noted. Diebold wrote a pretty good program.

But, it's running on a Windows PC.

So Harris had Dean close the Diebold GEMS software, go back to the normal Windows PC desktop, click on the "My Computer" icon, choose "Local Disk C:," open the folder titled GEMS, and open the sub-folder "LocalDB" which, Harris noted, "stands for local database, that's where they keep the votes." Harris then had Dean double-click on a file in that folder titled "Central Tabulator Votes," which caused the PC to open the vote count in a database program like Excel.

In the "Sum of the Candidates" row of numbers, she found that in one precinct Dean had received 800 votes and Lex Luthor had gotten 400.

"Let's just flip those," Harris said, as Dean cut and pasted the numbers from one cell into the other. "And," she added magnanimously, "let's give 100 votes to Tiger."

They closed the database, went back into the official GEMS software "the legitimate way, you're the county supervisor and you're checking on the progress of your election."

As the screen displayed the official voter tabulation, Harris said, "And you can see now that Howard Dean has only 500 votes, Lex Luthor has 900, and Tiger Woods has 100." Dean, the winner, was now the loser.

Harris sat up a bit straighter, smiled, and said, "We just edited an election, and it took us 90 seconds."

On live national television. (You can see the clip on http://www.votergate.tv.) And they had left no tracks whatsoever, Harris said, noting that it would be nearly impossible for the election software – or a County election official - to know that the vote database had been altered.

Which brings us back to Morris and those pesky exit polls that had Karen Hughes telling George W. Bush that he'd lost the election in a landslide.

Morris's conspiracy theory is that the exit polls "were sabotage" to cause people in the western states to not bother voting for Bush, since the networks would call the election based on the exit polls for Kerry. But the networks didn't do that, and had never intended to.

According to congressional candidate Fisher, it makes far more sense that the exit polls were right - they weren't done on Diebold PCs - and that the vote itself was hacked.

And not only for the presidential candidate - Jeff Fisher thinks this hit him and pretty much every other Democratic candidate for national office in the most-hacked swing states.

So far, the only national "mainstream" media to come close to this story was Keith Olbermann on his show Friday night, November 5th, when he noted that it was curious that all the voting machine irregularities so far uncovered seem to favor Bush. In the meantime, the Washington Post and other media are now going through single-bullet-theory-like contortions to explain how the exit polls had failed.

But I agree with Fox's Dick Morris on this one, at least in large part. Wrapping up his story for The Hill, Morris wrote in his final paragraph, "This was no mere mistake. Exit polls cannot be as wrong across the board as they were on election night. I suspect foul play."


And, just so you know, Nader has requested a recount in New Hampshire.  Looks like someone persuaded him to do so when they showed proof that the machines in those states gave Bush 5 to 15% more votes than he actually got.  If this challenge is effective, he has grounds to challenge the counts in all states where these machines were used ... possibly as many as 37 states.

-Laelth

Edit:Laelth--added some BBCode to make the links work.
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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted November 07, 2004 03:24 AM

Hmmm....

Personally I'm divided on this issue, not because I want Bush in power, but because of what I heard in the states. From those americans I spoke to, most of the undecided voters quite literally didn't care that much who won, as long as there was not the time consuming uncertainty of 2000. I know people literally prepared to rather vote for a candidate they hated in return for a garunteed result that wouldn't be questioned forever and ever. I guess some consider preserving the reputation of the system and the system itself more important than who wins.

So as much as I hated to see Bush win, I'd personally rather the Democrats and Nader sit back and accept that they lost. Bickering about the results like this, officially or otherwise is only going to harm the image of democracy that america has. On the other hand if Bush or anyone did win votes illegally then I'm annoyed as hell, but the subsequent arguments about who won what vote will bring the country apart in the name of ensuring that one side or the other wins.

I can't stand Bush winning, but rather that than bickering and court cases for 6 months to a year.
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Laelth
Laelth


Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
posted November 07, 2004 04:25 AM

If the election was stolen, then there's no democracy left to preserve.  The only way to preserve democracy (if the election was stolen) is to expose it and put the people who did it behind bars.  Would you disagree?  

Strategically, John Kerry's not contesting anything because he doesn't want to harm his party (the Sore/Losermen of 2000).  Nader, on the other hand, is free to challenge whatever he wants and fears absolutely no loss of reputation.  We'll see if this goes anywhere.  No telling at this point.

-Laelth
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RedSoxFan3
RedSoxFan3


Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
posted November 07, 2004 05:12 AM

The problem is not democracy. It's the political party system. The long-term two party system is failing America horribly. Something must be done. I think political parties have been a problem since the industrial revolution.
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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted November 07, 2004 06:03 AM
Edited By: privatehudson on 7 Nov 2004

Quote:
If the election was stolen, then there's no democracy left to preserve.  The only way to preserve democracy (if the election was stolen) is to expose it and put the people who did it behind bars.  Would you disagree?  
-Laelth


Depends, I don't think we can automatically assume that just because there were problems with the system that the problems were the quite deliberate machinations of Bush and  the Republican party. What I don't want is the same as last time round, a whole period of uncertainty about who won, only this time with even less cause. I'm not happy about the outcome, but rather that than months of court battles over virtually every state just because there may have been some electoral problems. Reform the system by all means, but lets move on and oppose the party on it's wrong policies and expose their mistakes rather than get bogged down in technical details.

One thing I learnt after all that time in the states is that the Democrats themselves were not immune to exploiting the voting system either, and I consider the whole system to be flawed anyway, so it really doesn't matter too much to me, either way the presedential vote is hardly democratic to me.
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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted November 07, 2004 08:42 AM

I've read some interesting things here.

Is it true that (local) exit polls and first results can be posted before everyone in the whole USA would finish voting?

Is it true that people can vote electronically. If so, how?

Is it true that some votes can't be tracked down (no material trace).

(trying to explain what I mean here: in my country we are required to place a little "X" mark on a paper, now those papers are stored; you can recount them anytime + the computer added results are not official (but usually reliable))

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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted November 07, 2004 12:04 PM

Quote:
Is it true that (local) exit polls and first results can be posted before everyone in the whole USA would finish voting?


Yes. This is controversial also. The last few elections have been close, so it hasn't been as much of an issue. There is a five hour difference in time zones in the US, maybe a little more in the far west areas of Alaska. In the past, with more lopsided elections, the winner was announced before the polls closed in the western states. This REALLY ticked off people who hadn't voted yet. Basically there were enough votes for one candidate in the east so that it was mathematically impossible for the western states to change the results. This all comes down to a freedom of the press issue. The media "knows" the results, therefore they have the "right" to announce it on TV. Over the last 10-15 years there has been a trend for the TV media to voluntarily wait to announce the winners until the polls close. This only partly works in practice. I'm not aware of any court rulings on this.

Quote:
Is it true that people can vote electronically. If so, how?


Yes. I think this is fairly new and I don't know much about it. People don't vote from their home computer or anything like that, they have touch screens at the polling place. I assume this is fed into a central computer, probably multiple redundant computers. I'm making assumptions here, but I assume electronic voting is partly due to advances in technology, but much of it is a "solution" to some of the problems we saw in Florida in the 2000 election.

Quote:
Is it true that some votes can't be tracked down (no material trace).


I'm not sure what you mean by "tracked down". The way it works is that the polling place has a list of voters in the precinct. A person MUST vote in the proper precinct because there are several things on the ballot, and some of them are very localized. Before you vote, you tell them your name and they cross your name off the list to show you already voted. They do not verify your identity. After this you sign your name on another paper. I suppose this is a form of identification. If a second person came in claiming to be you, they could do a signature comparison, but I've never heard of this actually happening.

Then you are handed a ballot and you vote. When you are done, you give the ballot to someone who puts it in a locked box. After the polls close, the locked boxes are taken to a central location in the county to be counted. I beleive this is always done at the county level whether it's a national, state, county or local poll. The results are given to the appropriate political subdivision. To my knowledge, there is no way to trace the ballot I cast back to me after it's put in the box. The ballots can be recounted if necessary, but I don't know of a way it can be verified who cast each ballot.

Maybe that's more than you wanted to know, but now you have a fairly comprehensive idea of how it works. Also, I have no idea how it works with electronic voting or if the process I described is the same in every state. But I've voted in three states and this was how it worked.

Does this sound similar to how it's done in Hungary, or other places?

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Laelth
Laelth


Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
posted November 07, 2004 03:31 PM

PH:

Quote:
I don't think we can automatically assume that just because there were problems with the system that the problems were the quite deliberate machinations of Bush and  the Republican party.


Of course.  And I didn't say we should assume this.  However, if this is what happened, then it should be exposed, and the perpetrators should be imprisoned ... else democracy in the U. S. is already dead, and George W. Bush is the duly elected President of the United States to the same extent that Saddam Hussein was the duly elected President of Iraq.

Quote:
One thing I learnt after all that time in the states is that the Democrats themselves were not immune to exploiting the voting system either, and I consider the whole system to be flawed anyway, so it really doesn't matter too much to me, either way the presedential vote is hardly democratic to me.


That's truly disturbing to me.  Many of us in the U. S. actually believe in democracy.  We need to believe that our vote counts and that we have some ability to direct the course of our nation.  If our democracy is merely an illusion, as you suggest, then those of us who believe in democracy might as well pack up and move to another country.  

Quote:
What I don't want is the same as last time round, a whole period of uncertainty about who won, only this time with even less cause. I'm not happy about the outcome, but rather that than months of court battles over virtually every state just because there may have been some electoral problems.


Less cause this time?  How can you be sure of that?  Are you sure you're not happy about the outcome?  Those of us on the left were pretty sure the election was stolen in 2000.  There's been evidence that the 2002 mid-term elections (which went very badly for Democrats) were also rigged.  Finally, in 2004 we saw all the indications of a substantial Democratic victory (high turnout, long lines at the polls, an energized electorate, Kerry winning all the debates, and all the exit polling showing Kerry winning key states).  Karen Hughes, Bush's advisor, was so certain of a Kerry victory on the afternoon of Nov. 2, 2004, that she told Bush that there was no way he could win.  And then, somehow, the results ended up showing that Bush had won.

Should we not even investigate this matter?  Should we, once again, roll over and play dead?  What price is too high to pay to preserve democracy?  

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Reform the system by all means.


If the Republicans rigged this election, and since they now control the Presidency, and the Senate, and the House of Representatives, and the Supreme Court, what incentive do they have to ever reform the system?  Some people on the left believe that if we don't take a stand and fight, here and now, then we will lose democracy in the U. S. forever (or, at least, for the next 20 years or so).

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Democrats themselves were not immune to exploiting the voting system either.


Then they should be investigated, and if guilty, should be jailed ... for the sake of preserving democracy.  But you and I both know that the Democrats didn't rig this one, and if they tried to rig it, they failed miserably.  No, it will be the Republicans trying to prevent investigations into widespread fraud ... most likely because they have the most to hide.

csarmi:

Quote:
Is it true that (local) exit polls and first results can be posted before everyone in the whole USA would finish voting?


Yes, this is true.  It should be noted that in most elections exit polls are more than 97% accurate in predicting the winner.  Final exit polls showed Kerry winning both Florida and Ohio by susbtantial margins.

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Is it true that people can vote electronically. If so, how?


Yes, this is true.  Some places use in-person computer touch-screen electronic voting.  These machines record the votes on a data card that is then fed into a central computer.  There is no paper record of a vote cast on these machines.  No way to do a recount, if necessary. However, these machines were not the problem in this election.  Exit polling in counties that used these machines were very consistent with the actual, reported vote totals.  The problem in this election seems to have been the optical-scan machines, in which a voter makes a mark with a black pen on a paper ballot, and that ballot is then fed into a optical-scan reader that's attached to a computer.  The computer (a standard Windows PC) records the votes in a database.  Security on these counting computers is virtually non-existent.  You can open the MSExcel database and edit the vote totals in about 90 seconds.  This is what may have happened this time, in a number of key counties across the country.  Many counties with optical-scan voting systems showed wildly disparate results from the exit polling conducted in those counties.  All the counties that used other voting technologies in this election, on the other hand, showed exit polling that matched up consistently with the actual vote totals.

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Is it true that some votes can't be tracked down (no material trace).


Depends on what you mean by "tracked down."  For the electronic voting machines, the votes exists as digital data only (no hard copy).  For the optical-scan machines, however, there's a paper ballot.  They can't be traced back to the person who originally cast the vote, no, but they can be recounted by hand because a paper trail exists.
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Whew!  Lots to respond to.  Hope that helped.  You should all be aware that this story has not hit the mainstream media in the U.S.  The left is not making a loud, public issue of this right now.  It's best, the leadership seems to believe, to allow George Bush to believe he won and allow the public to believe he won until a rock-solid legal case can be brought against these election results.  If that rock-solid legal case can not be brought, nothing will happen.  If it comes, expect fireworks.

I'll try to keep you all informed.

-Laelth
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Wolfman
Wolfman


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posted November 07, 2004 03:45 PM

I think it would be just great if it turns out the Democrats were trying to rig it.  That would be so much better.  Conspiracy theorists would probably die of shock, Democrats are perfect angels they could never do that.
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Laelth
Laelth


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Laelth rhymes with stealth.
posted November 07, 2004 03:57 PM

Quote:
I think it would be just great if it turns out the Democrats were trying to rig it.  That would be so much better.  Conspiracy theorists would probably die of shock, Democrats are perfect angels they could never do that.


LOL!  Yes, indeed.  If the Democrats tried to rig it, they did a really poor job.  But I agree with you.  If they did, they should be jailed.

Somehow, I don't think that's what we're going to see.  I think we're going to see Republicans, once again, trying to stop recounts because they fear (with good reason) that if all the votes are counted, they will lose.

-Laelth
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Wolfman
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posted November 07, 2004 04:06 PM

Really what this looks like to me, is not a group fighting for democracy.  But a group of sore losers because their candidate lost.  It looks nice to hide behind the facade if fighting for democracy, but that's not really what's happening here, is it?
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privatehudson
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posted November 07, 2004 04:16 PM

Quote:
Of course. And I didn't say we should assume this. However, if this is what happened, then it should be exposed, and the perpetrators should be imprisoned ...


Funny, you repeatedly imply it

Quote:
That's truly disturbing to me. Many of us in the U. S. actually believe in democracy. We need to believe that our vote counts and that we have some ability to direct the course of our nation. If our democracy is merely an illusion, as you suggest, then those of us who believe in democracy might as well pack up and move to another country.



There is an illusion that every vote counts, in some ways they do, in the presedential race they don't. In terms of deciding the election, the way that most states give all their electoral college votes to one candidate or another means that those in the state that voted for the candidate that didn't win the state had in effect their vote discounted in terms of the presedential race. Given that this can be millions of people, as opposed to thousands in England for example, I find the system flawed.

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Less cause this time? How can you be sure of that?


Bush won more of the popular vote and made a net gain in states IIRC.

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Are you sure you're not happy about the outcome?


Very sure, I've never wanted Bush to win the election

Quote:
Should we not even investigate this matter? Should we, once again, roll over and play dead? What price is too high to pay to preserve democracy?


Frankly I'd rather the democrats did roll over and play dead. I'm with those in the states who think that months/years of whining about possible fraud on the offchance that it might have been deliberate is more damaging than simply accepting that you lost. These things happen, time to accept them rather than act like sore loosers and try and find any way possible to overturn the result, which frankly I doubt will ever happen.

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But you and I both know that the Democrats didn't rig this one, and if they tried to rig it, they failed miserably.


There was good evidence whilst I was in the states that there was as much voter fraud from their direction as the Republican. Where I differ is that I don't assume this has to be deliberate policy of the party.


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Laelth
Laelth


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posted November 07, 2004 04:17 PM
Edited By: Laelth on 7 Nov 2004

Directed to Wolfman, above.

How many times can I say this?  If Democrats were guilty of subverting the election process, I'd say jail them!  When I suggest that Republicans, however, may have been trying to subvert the process, you tell me I'm being a sore loser and whining about losing?  You're basically just saying the same old thing. "Shut up and get over it."  You confirm my worst suspicions about Republicans.  You care nothing about democracy.  It's all about winning to you.  If your party cared about democracy, they would not object to a recount.  Why object?  Everyone's vote should be counted, right?  

No.  I can assure you the Republicans will resist any and all recount efforts ... and you know I'm right.  It's shameful.

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--directed the comment to the correct poster.
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