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| Thread: Strategical thoughts / strategical Questions |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT» |
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted December 29, 2004 11:32 AM |
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Strategical thoughts / strategical Questions
Strategy...
... hard to explain. Most of the time when people write about "strategy" in heroes 3, they write about certain "techniques"(like chaining, fighting AI etc.) but NOT really about strategy. Thats not because that they dont know about strategy, but the problem is that this story is most of the time to complex and difficult to explain.
So this is an attempt to get near to some strategy, some "strategical thoughts" about H3. Just to note that there always be a counter, so never think this will be "the only way to go". But thats what i say, if someone ask me about "my strategy":
"Have a plan, otherwise u loose"
U can have better arts, creatures and stuff, but unless u see all the game circuumstances and "do create a plan to win" u simply wont win against an experienced player (btw. this thread is only for human to human games).
As i already stated this is only an "attemp", if it succeed depends on your reaction. And "no" i dont think im the best player of the world, so i want an open discussion.
This is how i try to describe certain parts of "strategical thoughts":
I try to give an inspiring question, so that others may get a new strategic view on specific stories. I hope for good answers and big participation. Also maybe other will do some inspiring questions too ..would be fun! 
Xarfax1
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted December 29, 2004 11:37 AM |
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...ok here is the first Question:
1. Why would I prefer Terek as main over Crag Hack every time when i fight with Stronghold against Tower?
-Please state also the easy answers! What will be the clues if u fight with Terek? (there are several)...please state your strategic thoughts!
Have fun!
Xarfax1
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted December 29, 2004 11:47 AM |
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2. Why are Battledwarfes a "two sided-knife" if u face Solmyr in the Endfight?
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solo
Hired Hero
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posted December 29, 2004 01:31 PM |
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well i play StRoNgHoLd so i kinda know
OK first off all, tower has many shooters so turtling isnt a good idea, considering not so good chance of having cyclopses, so it would be wise to start battle right awaySince Terek already has TACTICS and speciality HASTE and tower army is kinda slow, just like SH, fastest unit if i am not mistaken is 11, just like SH so TACTICS and HASTE is a KILLER
OK thats enough when i come up with some questions i'll be posting
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted December 29, 2004 02:18 PM |
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3. What is the best Tower Endfight formation (without tactics)? And Why?
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted December 29, 2004 06:53 PM |
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well terek could be preffered because:
1. has tactics to start with and you'll get to exp i presume by the time you get to fight with him
2. haste improves the speed of some units the lower the level the more improvement, so a mass haste would mean that most of your units will attack before the oponent even gets a chance to move (that is if you are the agressor and no speed artie neutral terrain or stronghold terrain)
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted December 29, 2004 07:07 PM |
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Question 1.)
As for the fact, the fastest units of both towns have speed eleven, Terek would get first turn when no speed artie involved and he is attacker (native or neutral terrain). His speciality is haste, so it works with increased effect on lower level units. Normaly expert haste means +5 speed to all units.
Though i am not an expert in playing stronghold, but i would say ALL his units would have their turn BEFORE tower army even starts.
Lowest speed of stronghold is Ogremagi with speed 6 iirc, so +5 for expert haste and +1 for speciality makes 12. Titan and mastergenie have 11.
Now expert tactics and opponent donīt have tactics at all perhaps....deadly first turn i would guess..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted December 29, 2004 07:15 PM |
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my guess to the solmyr one is that you prefer the chain lightning to hit your fodders more than your important troops. Now with battle dwarves and their magic resistance there is a good chance that the chain lightning will just skip the dwarves and hit units you are more concerened about, like your unicorns or you grand elfs.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted December 31, 2004 05:05 PM |
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Thanks angelito for the answer ...although i must admit that i expected more peeps trying to answer the questions, so that the final answer wouldve been "developed by participants". Maybe the other questions will be answered by more players, if not i think there is no interest and there will be no need to give some more interesting questions.
1. Why would I prefer Terek as main over Crag Hack every time when i fight with Stronghold against Tower?
Quote:
Question 1.)
As for the fact, the fastest units of both towns have speed eleven, Terek would get first turn when no speed artie involved and he is attacker (native or neutral terrain). His speciality is haste, so it works with increased effect on lower level units. Normaly expert haste means +5 speed to all units.Though i am not an expert in playing stronghold, but i would say ALL his units would have their turn BEFORE tower army even starts. Lowest speed of stronghold is Ogremagi with speed 6 iirc, so +5 for expert haste and +1 for speciality makes 12. Titan and mastergenie have 11.
Now expert tactics and opponent donīt have tactics at all perhaps....deadly first turn i would guess..
Yes thats a big point why i prefer Terek in this situation, still there must be some more, cause Hack would give about 60% extra damage per hit, so thats a strong argument.
So lets develop one by one:
"Casts haste with increased effect, based on Hero Level compared to the level of the target unit (the bonus is greater if used on weaker units)."
Again the gamedescription is misleading and partly wrong. No matter what Level Terek do have the bonus he does give is always the same. The bonus is also independent on the creature speed. So the bonus is fixed per creature level:
Level 1-2 = +3 Speed
Level 3-4 = +2 Speed
Level 5-6 = +1 Speed
So in the current situation, after Terek did the mass haste, there will be the following speed:
Ancient Behemot = 9 +5 +0 = 14
Cyclop King = 8 +5 +1 = 14
Thunderbird =11 +5 +1 = 17
Ogre Magie = 5 +5 +2 = 12
Orc Chiefs = 5 +5 +2 = 12
Wolf Raider = 8 +5 +3 = 16
Hob Goblins = 7 +5 +3 = 15
So the first clue is that all Stronghold creatures will be faster then the fastest Tower creatures ...means if the Tower has no tactics, tower will be "rolled over". Dont try this against some other towns. For example Dungeon on native ground will massslow within the movement and the "terek-dream" will be over.
Still Hack can have tactics and masshaste too, so there should be some more advantages too. Another clue is that almost all creatures can cross the battlefield from groundline. So if the tower hero has expert tactics too and stronghold creatures are back on groundline, there is still no hope for tower: All creatures except maybe the ogre mages will do damage!
But there is another "hidden" clue, due to the haste-special: The "first hit" situation completely changes! Means..while u normally sacrifice some of your precious Thunderbirds to absorb the counterstrike for your Ancient Behemots, u can now take some less precious creatures like wolf raider or hob goblins. And if u change the formation like this...
Cyclop King, Thunderbird, Hobgoblins, Ancient Behemot, Wolf Raiders, Orc Chiefs, Ogre Mages
...the Wolf Rider and Hob Goblins will attack before the Ancients and ...
...the Cyclop Kings will shot before the Ancients and the Orc Chiefs before the Ogre Mages. So the fight will somehow like this:
Thunderbirds will attack less tough creatures like Master Gs or Wizards, the Wolf raiders will attack the Naga Queens and take counterstrike, Hobgoblins attack the Titans and take counterstrike, Cyclop Kings shoot on Titans, Ancients take out the rest of the titans, Orc Chiefs shoot on the Naga Queens and Ogre Mages take out the rest of the Naga Queens.
Now that all creatures did damage without losing some precious creatures, the counterreactions of tower are very limited and normally wont succed:
- masslow: Without any damage dialer the "2 rounds" attack wont do enough damage.
- chainlightning: As stronghold creatures are already mixed with tower creatures, it would only lead into some more reducing of the own creatures.
- resurrection: Is only on 1 possible stack. On the next turn stronghold will again strike first 7 times!
etc... at least in the stronghold-tower situation Terek is very hard to counter...if not impossible.
Xarfax1
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted December 31, 2004 05:21 PM |
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2. Why are Battledwarfes a "two sided-knife" if u face Solmyr in the Endfight?
Quote:
my guess to the solmyr one is that you prefer the chain lightning to hit your fodders more than your important troops. Now with battle dwarves and their magic resistance there is a good chance that the chain lightning will just skip the dwarves and hit units you are more concerened about, like your unicorns or you grand elfs.
Exactly!
There are some interesting facts to know if it comes to chainlightning against resistance:
- only the first creatures can "resist" (block) the damage (u see the "resistance shield" and the chain is stopped right there). If the chain can do damage on the first creature it will be completed.
- after the first creature, if the chain is "resisted" the creatur will simply be "skipped" and the chain moves on to the next creature.
- a "skipped" creature can take damage with the next part of the chain. So if this creature is next to the creature the chain moves back to this. Again it is possible that this creature "skippes" again! So the chain is wondering to one end and back to the middle!
So thats why Battledwarfes are not so good as u might think if it comes to fights against Chainlightning.
As the unicorns only do have resistance "for adjacted" creatures, they are the favorite target of expierenced players. The Battledwarfe very next to it, will have 56% chance to resist. So their chance to simply "skip" the chain is very high. So all the important creatures like unicorns or grand elves may get hit twice by the chain, when the unimportant battle dwarfes will survive.
Xarfax1
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sirzapdos
Promising
Famous Hero
Open the pod bay doors, Hal.
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posted December 31, 2004 05:38 PM |
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May be a n00b question, but why not leave the Battle Dwarves behind if they're going to be problematic? Why not split up some other fodder instead?
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So I try to live a complicated world...
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted December 31, 2004 06:25 PM |
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Quote:
May be a n00b question, but why not leave the Battle Dwarves behind if they're going to be problematic? Why not split up some other fodder instead?
Thats exactly the consequenz u need in your mind when u face the described situation: Let the battledwarfes out of the fight and let some fodder take the damage.
Unless uve already very high resistance (Thorgrimm plus artefacts). Then the chain will be skipped and the damage will go back to your opponent.
Xarfax1
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted December 31, 2004 06:53 PM |
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Mass Slow, then resurrect Titans and concentrate on Ancients maybe. It won't be enough, but you do not have another choice. Hope you do not have archery, but do have offense/armorer.
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted December 31, 2004 07:33 PM |
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Quote:
well i play StRoNgHoLd so i kinda know
OK first off all, tower has many shooters so turtling isnt a good idea
Sorry to go back to this, great thread btw Xarfax - but what is turtling?
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted December 31, 2004 07:44 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
well i play StRoNgHoLd so i kinda know
OK first off all, tower has many shooters so turtling isnt a good idea
Sorry to go back to this, great thread btw Xarfax - but what is turtling?
...i guess he means "to be as slow as a turtle", means pressing creatures on wait or getting slow to the other side.
Xarfax1
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted December 31, 2004 07:51 PM |
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yeah I must agree great post xarfax. Now about your tower formation. Does it include all upgraded units, and does it matter the town you're playing againts?
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted January 01, 2005 02:20 AM |
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Another idea - and maybe really the only hope - is mass slow AND berserk.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted January 01, 2005 02:30 AM |
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Quote:
yeah I must agree great post xarfax. Now about your tower formation. Does it include all upgraded units, and does it matter the town you're playing againts?
I always talk about online games ...so it would be army around day 12 to 15 on a fixed map ...day 15 if u played tower well (u need a bit more time with tower). Or around week 4 to 5 if u play on a random. In both cases u shouldve all creatures available in upgraded form.
Its not against a specific town, its more the formation in "general"... how would u place your troups wisely, what can be the faults, what things do u think must be considered??
Xarfax1
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted January 02, 2005 06:46 AM |
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ok my tower formation would be
1. master gremlins
2. naga queen
3. iron golem
4. titan
5. gargoyle
6. master genies
7. arch magi
Considerations:
1. Spreading your archers so the opponent won't be able to block two of your archers with one unit.
2. every unit that is not an archer is able to attack a unit that blocks an archer from its position
3. Since the titan is the most hunted unit the tower army has, put the titan in the middle so only one unit would be able to attack it.
4. The iron golem in the middle cluster cause it can take magic damage well
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted January 02, 2005 10:46 AM |
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Edited By: csarmi on 2 Jan 2005
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I think you should base your formation on enemy alignment. For example, against rampart, dungeon or conflux this formation is very problematic: you give the oppurtunity to your opponent to attack the titans through the gargoyles.
Xarfax, I have tried your strategy in a test game against the above-mentioned tower setup (made sure the Ogre Magi can hit the Naga Queens and it was a massacre, but the Stronghold side lost.
I have managed to kill 1/3rd of master genies, all but 1 titan and 1/2 of the Naga Queens with the first big blow. Opponent had expert tactics though.
Oh, and Ancients got morale first round.
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