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| Thread: How to Save Your Marriage |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 25, 2005 10:02 PM |
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How to Save Your Marriage
Another long-winded post from Yours Truly.
I have been married twice now, and have further been in several long-term relationships. I have also known many couples and observed them over long periods of time. I found that no matter who is involved, there are several, seemingly inevitable consequences that arise from long-term relationships, and have found some things that work.
After having had a weekend that would easily have either seriously damaged or even ended many marriages/relationships, or at least ended in somebody spending a night or two in a hotel, I have decided to expend some of my energy this morning sharing some of my thoughts with interested readers in a hopefully productive manner. So for what it’s worth, here goes. I hope it helps in some small way.
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1) THE PROBLEM: LUST V. LOVE
Almost all couples begin with an overwhelming physical attraction to one another. It’s the modern way of selecting mates, as opposed to arranged marriages or choosing a mate for economic reasons in the past. After several years with the same person, that feeling of mutual irresistibility seems to fade. Many people equate the initial feeling of irresistible lust with love, and think the onset of this phenomenon signals the death of love.
Unless you are Antony and Cleopatra or Nicholas II and Alexandria, the feeling of irresistibility will eventually fade.. No matter what. THIS IS COMPLETELY NORMAL. The fact is the human body produces high levels of pheromones and endorphins (the same substance produced by eating chocolate) in the initial stages of a romantic relationship, and that the body eventually, reliably adjusts to the stimulus (a given partner) producing these substances, resulting in a waning of their production. True, the levels of initial production and eventual waning will vary from person to person in both time and intensity. But if you cannot find any reason to take pleasure in thoughts of living out the rest of your life with your mate after those feelings have faded, you may not have been in love at all to begin with. You may have been in lust. Mistaking lust for love, and mistaking its loss as a loss of love, are probably the biggest root causes of divorce.
THE SOLUTION: This is not to suggest the adjustment will be easy. The fact is modern culture bombards us with the fresh blush of love, that it rams lust down our throats in every movie, billboard advertisement, novel and television program. Sex sells. Welcome to the great world marketplace.
But knowing this occurrence is normal may at least be your first defense against giving into it. The next step is working at the relationship. Be kind and sweet to your partner. Take care of them. Remember they are your family member. Be aware they are probably having the same feelings, that they may be frightened by them, and give them reasons to continue to want to choose you over others. Find the things that give them pleasure, and be frank about the things that give you pleasure in return. Do the things with them that they like, whether or not you like those things too, and negotiate a proper return (If we go bike riding today, can we go antique shopping tomorrow?)
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2) THE PROBLEM: YOU SMELL GOOD (NOT)
For the same reasons as Problem Number One, tolerance levels adjust downward as time goes by. Things you once thought were “cute” or “sexy” about your mate either become increasingly annoying or downright unpleasant. And things your mate once thought were cute about you are no different. Those lovely smells we all exuded during the heat of passion in the first blush of love can actually become distracting after years and years. Thinking our mate loves and chooses us over all others, no matter what, does not confront the bland reality that letting ourselves go will only fuel the natural diminishment of passion, nor does it create an excuse for us not to be responsible for our lives and health.
SOLUTION: Don’t take the changes in his or her responses to you personally. It’s all perfectly normal.
Wash. Keep as fit as you can. Groom yourself to be attractive; don’t take your mate’s affections for granted.
Be aware of the little things your mate begins finding annoying about you. For instance, if (s)he is annoyed that you put your dishes in the sink without rinsing them first, then take a little extra step and turn on the damn faucet. Try to avoid the buildup of little annoyances until they become big ones. In turn, if some little thing begins annoying you about your mate, then communicate. Nicely ask them if they could do the thing a little differently. If they get upset, then ask if there’s some little thing you can do in turn that would help them be more comfortable as well. They will be more inclined to see you’re not just nitpicking, but really want to improve the environment.
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3) THE PROBLEM: JEALOUSY FOR JEALOUSY’S SAKE
This is also right at the top of the list of causes for divorce. Either you get jealous every time your partner shows any acknowledgement of another person of the opposite sex (or the same sex as the case may be), or your partner gets jealous every time you do the same. Jealousy seems to be ingrained in the human personality to an astonishing and destructive degree. But remember, jealousy is usually nothing more than a manifestation of insecurity. A lack of trust, understanding, and respect for individual autonomy will damage your union, probably just as much as a real case of infidelity would. And empty jealousy signals a lack of all these things.
THE SOLUTION: Leave your jealousy at the high school prom where it belongs. Be secure in your relationship, and act like it. We must all acknowledge the fact that we will all be attracted to other people even when we are in deeply committed relationships. Once again, seeking out new, sexy things is drilled into us constantly. Finding someone else attractive always happens eventually, I believe to all of us.
This is not to say that you should not expect your partner to follow the ground rules for your relationship. If you entered a relationship on the understanding that you both clearly expected it to be monogamous, you both have a right to continue in that expectation.
But be realistic. Realize that you both will occasionally see another person you think is attractive. Men are much worse at hiding this fact than women are. They tend to gawk without thinking. This is natural. Their testosterone levels seem to dictate it.
If your partner clearly finds another person attractive in your presence, nudge them to get their attention, wink, and acknowledge the attractiveness of the stranger. Whisper “Not bad, huh?” or some other equally shocking thing. Your partner will realize you are a friend as well as a lover, and that you acknowledge a natural occurrence without being threatened by it. SHOW YOUR TRUST AND UNDERSTANDING. This may seem a little strange at first, but showing your trust and understanding will make a better bedrock for fidelity than getting angry and stomping away like a child will. I cannot tell you how many times my partners have been pleasantly shocked by this and found it both reassuring and terribly sexy.
If it is your partner that is exhibiting jealousy, try to let them know that finding other people attractive does not mean you’re going anywhere or that you don’t love them anymore. If they cannot rise to the level of security suggested here, or if you can’t, don’t be too hard on them or yourself. This is one of the most difficult things for people in relationships to accomplish.
Your mate having close emotional relationships with others may happen. You may have them as well. You must take responsibility for keeping the parameters of your original agreement, and have a right to expect your partner to do the same. You must trust your partner and they must trust you. Encourage your partner to be completely truthful with you, but be prepared to take responsibility for your emotional reactions of jealousy. Chances are if they feel free enough to talk to you about it, they will try harder to avoid it going any further than a friendship.
If a breach of fidelity happens, it probably would have happened anyway despite your openness and lack of visible jealousy. But it does happen – a lot. Respond as you must. If you find yourself incapable of forgiveness, as many do, then take the necessary actions. But keep in mind that if you can truly get past the straying episode with your eyes wide open, you may find your relationship stronger than ever.
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4) THE PROBLEM: SILLY ARGUMENTS
When you find yourself in an increasingly heated argument over apparently nothing, or over a mere difference in opinion, several things may be afoot.
First, usually individuals are vying for the supremacy of their opinion, or because both are sure they are right, or because they want to maintain control over the situation. Frequently we feel disrespected because the other person appears to believe we are not entitled to our opinions.
Second, one or both individuals may be upset about something entirely different than the subject of dispute, and just need an excuse to yell at the universe, whether or not the real problem involves the other party, or something entirely different.
THE SOLUTION: In the heat of the argument, take the high road. Get control over yourself. Lower your voice. Step back. Note out loud that the discussion has become angry and suggest calmly that you think it would be best if you both cooled down a bit before discussing this issue again because you’re going in circles right now and nobody can discuss things rationally when they’re angry. Find an excuse to leave the scene but tell them you’re leaving for the sole purpose of letting both of you cool down and not to punish the other person. Go change the laundry, or take a walk and think about how your own attitude was contributing to the anger (because it almost always is, even if it’s not apparent to you or you don’t want to see it).
Once you’ve gotten away, take your time alone to prepare yourself to be magnanimous and genuinely accept responsibility for your part in the spat. DON’T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF. Let go of the mean things they said and did during the argument. Upon your return, you will apologize for arguing in the most genuine voice possible (arguing is never the solution even when you’re right). You will hug them if they are receptive enough to allow it. But if they are not ready for that yet, don’t let it make you feel too bad or get angry again. Stick with your unconditional apology. Chances are, when presented with such comparatively fair and adult treatment, the other partner will be abashed into responding accordingly. If you show them how it is to be done, and make it easy for them to say “I’m sorry too,” they usually will.
Here’s the tricky part. Many people want to start discussing the same thing again that got them arguing in the first place. Usually there is a bit of residual heat that takes a little time to let go of. If you find yourself being pulled back into the vortex, gracefully change the subject. “Yes, I understand your point on this matter. Hey – what should we have for dinner?” or “What say we go to a movie instead of rehashing all this right now?”
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5) THE PROBLEM: DISAGREEMENTS OVER SERIOUS ISSUES
If the subject is one genuinely needing immediate resolution, then this is what must be done if your discussion is to be successful. It is a hard skill to learn, but the only way to learn is to practice. Take the next argument on an important topic needing resolution as your first opportunity to practice. Here’s how it goes.
THE SOLUTION: Hear each other out completely in a discussion session. You are on the same team and you both must act like it. So you take the upper hand in suggesting the following ground rules for the discussion. One person at a time talks, expresses his or her side completely, uninterrupted by the other side’s protests. When they are completely done, the other person does the same. Make it clear you are serious about hearing them out completely, and that you will then be allowed the same courtesy. After you both have had a chance to air your thoughts and feelings, you decide together what to do.
Usually the one suggesting the discussion form relinquishes the right to talk first, on the condition that (s)he gets the same chance when the first person is done. Let them talk. Think carefully and objectively about what they are saying. Listen without making unpleasant facial expressions or comments of any kind. Not even so much as an “uh huh.” (You’re not supposed to react at all except listen, but I frequently find myself nodding when I hear points I agree with anyway.) If you think eye contact will be perceived as staring, then pick a point and look there, just listen to every word intently, and look like you mean it. Consider their points carefully, putting yourself in their place as they speak. Get a pen and paper and write notes while the other is talking if you need to, to recall the points you want to respond to. Typically, people are not being helpful when they raise their voices during their talking sessions, but sometimes it happens. Just keep listening.
When they are done and it comes your turn, ask if they want a piece of paper too just in case. Then say your piece. If your partner interrupts you, calmly remind them that you let them finish without interrupting and it won’t work unless (s)he does the same. Then quickly return to saying your piece and don’t get hung up on the interruption. Try not to get angry while you are talking. If you’re talking about a point that makes you angry, instead of acting it out, just calmly say, “This is what makes me angry…” Then explain fully why it makes you angry.
Once you are done saying your piece, offer them the opportunity to take another turn responding to the points you’ve raised. Again, think carefully about what they say, the points they make, putting yourself in their place as you listen. Give them the same complete reign you gave them the first time. Take more notes.
When the other person is done responding to your points, you can then respond to theirs. Same ground rules.
When you both are completely done expressing your concerns, ask your partner what solution they want, tell them what you would like, and then ask if there is some way that both of you could accept. Be ready to give something in order to get something. Remember, we all want our way, and our partners are the same. Try to keep the anger level low. Take responsibility for your own anger, and if the other person continues to react angrily during the solution session, remind them that the two of you won’t be able to arrive at a solution as long as you try to do it out of anger. Remind them you love them and you’re on the same team.
If the argument begins again, then once again, take the high road. Don’t let yourself get sucked back into the vortex of anger. Return to Solution Number Four. Suggest you both need some time to think about what one other has said, and you can talk about it in a day or two. But don’t let the issue languish too long. Gently try to set a date certain when you can try to find a solution, or else the issue might return to its festering state and lead to another big blow-up.
This method of negotiation does not always work. But it works one hell of a lot more often than having screaming fights does. Don’t be concerned if you continue your old habit of yelling at one another in the future. Old habits die hard, and once you’ve fallen into that pattern it must be consciously, deliberately broken by affirmatively pursuing the above technique. It just takes practice.
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All this is what they mean when they say “working at a marriage.”
Well, that’s about it for now. And remember, laugh, often, even and especially at the little annoying things. Telling someone what annoys you while chuckling about it makes it seem much less threatening and more palatable. It tends to make the other person see the silliness in the thing and their behavior. Laugh at your own little mistakes as well. Laugh together whenever you can, about anything and everything. Things are as serious as we make them.
I invite anyone who has more suggestions on how to save your marriage, or anecdotal stories, to post here. I may do the same, but this marathon post is more than plenty for a start.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 26, 2005 06:13 AM |
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Thankyou Peacemaker
I have learned something new about you. I greatly appreciate your openness. Thankyou.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted April 26, 2005 05:23 PM |
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Excellent post Weepy ( ) I think that if anyone entering a new relationship can keep the things you have said here in mind, you may well help a lot of people.
I look forward to reading more replies, I don't know what I could add though except maybe a bunch of mistakes without solutions 
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 26, 2005 05:25 PM |
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Right on, Consis. I knew I could count on at least you reading through that whole thing. (WHEW)
{EDIT}
Oh -- and Pan! We must have been posting at the same time -- thank you!!!
I do wish someone would have told me the real version of adult relationships a long time ago (vis the storybook version we all get as children) and frankly don't understand why this kind of stuff isn't better known and discussed.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted April 26, 2005 05:42 PM |
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Well when I find someone dumb enough to marry little old me I'll keep it in mind
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 26, 2005 06:30 PM |
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Oh stop, PH.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted April 26, 2005 09:44 PM |
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Wow. This is probably the most educational, interesting and important article I've read online in a very long time.
If I ever find myself in a serious reationship, I hope I will remember these solutions. 
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted April 26, 2005 10:19 PM |
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Does this apply to not married couples too or do they have to look for a different survival guide?
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted April 27, 2005 12:15 PM |
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it does it does...
with slight changes here and there, PM's guide applies to non-married couples as well...
...either that or its a miracle i still have a GF
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 27, 2005 03:14 PM |
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Hey Lith-Maethor,
It's been a while since you posted a real-life pic of yourself for Heroes Community to see. Do you have any recent photos for us?
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted April 29, 2005 03:14 AM |
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Quote:
Oh stop, PH.
I'll make you a deal, I'll stop when you reply to my email damnit
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted May 02, 2005 11:50 PM |
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I'm glad some of you found this helpful in your various circumstances. Again I invite anecdotal stories about personal experiences for others to share and learn from. Relationships are one of the most complex things we will all deal with, and too many people get taken completely by surprise when this reality hits them.
BTW -- Consis --
What exactly about me was it you learned?
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 03, 2005 05:42 PM |
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Peacemaker,
I learned that you pick and choose your personal battles. It's very different from the way I am. My emotions take me where I want to go in life. You exercise a great deal more restraint than I ever could. I'm not saying that's good or bad. I'm simply saying that my enthusiasm constantly frightens people away from me whereas you obviously don't have that problem.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted May 03, 2005 06:19 PM |
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Well, I try, Consis. But I don't always succeed. The reality is my natural tendency is to be more like you (spontaneous and reactionary based on your comment) and it is a constant up-hill battle for me to be otherwise.
It does seem to be getting easier with years of practice, though.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted May 04, 2005 05:08 AM |
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so..
I got this problem.
See.. there is this girl. She and i are extremely attracted by each other, basically we turn each other on with smiles. Which is easily explained due to the fact that she has been a model from my side
Problem is.. she got a boyfriend. Well to be completely honest, she got a very steady relationship. They share apartment, car, have a dog and so on. So basically she is very secure in it.
And this girl and i have seen each other a couple of times now, she had never been unfaithful before me. Which was the first time we saw each other seriously at my place. And well.. it wasnt supposed to happend but as stated, extreme attraction.
After that she understandably felt bad for what she had done.. for two days. then she invited me to a party. Thing is.. when we got there it was just us and two others, and the party ended with me and her in bed... again. And the sex was great again.
So.. once again she feels really bad afterwards and tells me that she really wanna give her relationship another try.
So we have just been talking for a couple of days now and today she got alittle drunk and we talked again. First when sober btw she told me her "new start" were going great, then tonight when we talked she told me how much she missed... well... lets just say she missed some sex related things and she had turned down her bf's sexattempts.
And then she told me how much she was looking forward to have sex with me again.
Which is ironically my problem, obviously she has feelings for her bf. My feeling is also that she seem to like the secure parts of it. She told me she had had a really bad relationship before him and now things are..steady. He works as a personal trainer and she studies and as mentioned before they have car etc together.
But obviously something is also really wrong as she turns his sexual attempts down.
I also wanna make it clear that im not in love with this girl or something like that, i wont deny that im interested because she is great. But i hardly know her so now its basically just real physical attraction and great sex.
ive been talking to my buddies about this but they all have this "not your problem - keep do her" ideology. But as she claims she wants a new start with him.. am i the bastard here that does nothing when she wants sex with me?
I mean i may not be the most polite person in here but im not completely without sympathies... i dont wanna be the main reason for other relationships to break up.
Note, i would appreciate well thought replies if any.
"stay out until she either leaves her bf or not" comments are unnecessary as im looking for a bit more detailed reasoning than that.
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hamsi128
Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
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posted May 04, 2005 08:14 AM |
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desire vs oath
hey stiven,
i was in the same situation 7 years ago but i was girl's boyfriend ... The bastardo who wanted to steal my girl lost many IQ points when i clubbed him.. i wont tell how i push ex-girl to sea from ship ...
Be careful this is dangereous game and imagine that a bastardo wants to get your gf, what you ll feel... there is only 1 winner , get that chick and beat the other guy so you can be complete bastardo OR just do your duty (love this part ) and wait girl decisions ...
btw, dont force the girl to make a decision quickly , be patient , its only a penalty to force her for you if you want her really ... the other guy will make a mistake and with his uncontroled anger he will do foolish things then girl is yours...
well ima too old for such scenarios...
macho macho maaan, i got to be a macho man
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted May 04, 2005 02:03 PM |
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Quote:
i dont wanna be the main reason for other relationships to break up.
Don't flatter yourself. You're not so irresistable that women can't resist you no matter how committed the relationship they're in is. You're not responsible for the other relationship breaking up she and possibly him as well are. You're a bystander with benefits, that's all.
Enjoy the sex. The guilt goes on her and/or potentially whatever her boyfriend does/did to make her lose interest (it may be entirely her, then again, it may not, either way it's not you).
Don't hold out for a long term relationship with this chick. Best case scenario, you're her way of expressing dissatisfaction with her current relationship, worst case she's a serial cheater and she'll do the same to you.
If her current boyfriend is a lot bigger than you, go down to the blood bank and make sure they're stocked up on your blood type.
Have fun.
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Drive by posting.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 04, 2005 03:45 PM |
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I agree with Bort. I'd say just go where she guides you. There is no way you can blame yourself; you are a free man, not in any kind of relationship. You can also tell yourself that if you leave, she might just find another attractive guy to jump on - but I am unsure about this; you could answer this question yourself. In the affirmative, she would seem to have problems with her love life and frankly, it's not your problem.
I'd also tell you to take is slow with her, in the sense of getting to know her. If you're only looking for sex, then fine, no problem, but it might turn into something serious... you just never know.
Let us know how it goes, you've picked my curiosity!
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted May 04, 2005 07:40 PM |
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Stiven -- If I May...
Just some thoughts about your post.
It's possible what you see happening with this relationship between the girl and her significant other is not necessarily her loss of interest in the relationship, but the inevitable waning of the fresh blush of passion (which I described in the opening post). This always happens eventually, and is not necessarily a sign that the relationship is over. How long have they been involved, or do you know? If it's been several years, then that may be why she digressed. She may have seen you, felt the fresh-blush stage of attraction, and let her body do the talking despite her intent to continue in her relationship with the other guy. Or, it could be indicative of deeper problems between them, like some have suggested here.
Also, here's another consideration. It depends on your personal ethic. Some have suggested that what happens between them is not your personal responsibility. Others might hold a different view. It varies from person to person. It seems to me that reasonable people can differ on the issue of your responsibility in this situation.
So here's the question: How do you feel about it?
Here's some thoughts that might help you decide how you feel about it, and maybe what your next move should be.
First, it's almost guaranteed that if the two of you continue sleeping together, it will not bode well for her existing relationship. Few relationships can withstand an ongoing, secret involvement on the side. Either the "cheating" party's contribution to the established relatioship is affected, and/or the other person usually finds out sooner or later. And that usually (almost always) leads to a break-up.
Thinking about if that happens then, and recalling your comments about not being in love with her, how serious do you think this girl's feelings are for you? Are you just a sex buddy or do you think she may feel seriosuly about you? Might she be thinking of leaving him for you? (Knowing how most womens' hearts work, even if she's not serious she might end up getting more serious about her feelings for you if you two remain involved.)
So then, that leads us to how you might feel about her if all this happened. Can you anticipate whether you would get more serious about her in return? If you're still just thinking of her as a sex buddy, then you may be engaging in actions that are detrimental to a stable relationship in order to have some fun.
Which returns us to the idea that it's not your responsibility. You still may come to that conclusion, but at least you have some thoughts about the practical realities that might be at work here to help you decide.
If you decide you bear some responsibility in the situation and you're serious about taking the practical consequences to her into consideration, you may want to have a talk with her about all this. Especially try to find out how important all that stability is to her. If it is terribly important, you have another thing to consider. If not, one less thing to worry about.
Also, I think the other men are wisely warning you about how dangerous the guy may be. Some people grow terribly dangerous in situations involving infidelity. So be careful.
Good luck. I hope this was helpful in some small way.
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted May 06, 2005 04:54 AM |
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so...
this will be a short post as im kinda exhausted right now.
First of all i would like to thank you all for your comments... tonight this happend:
the girl invited me to pub with 2 of her friends.
When she met me up she told me that she and her bf had been out the night before and they had had a great time..
As we live in the same direction we shared a taxi home from pub. Home to my place that turned out to be, and not to recieve another penalty for this post i cut the details but lets just say we had great sex again.
And my problem seems to be still here so id guess i better start working out again for real as her bf is a personal trainer
If nothing else she had a very catchy good night phrase: "thnx for the orgasm, talk to you tomorrrow"...
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