|
| Thread: Questions and Observations | |
|
MadeInChina278
Tavern Dweller
|
posted June 10, 2005 08:41 AM |
|
|
Questions and Observations
Just a few questions and notes:
1) Why did Ubisoft take over making Heroes? I also noticed that 3DO sorta went outta business or something (or at least their website and everything else is gone), so did Ubisoft just take over the company?
2) Wow... the haven town... it almost made me cry... SO good.
3) I support the idea of transforming H5 into a 3D experience and all, and especially after seeing screenshots of the haven town and the clip of its exploration I am amazed by how well Ubisoft has realized this goal for some aspects of the game. But just in my personal opinion, the adventure map could have been done in a much better fashion. As much as I support the idea of a 3D game, I don't think H5 should be all cartoony (even bordering on anime, i.e. the angel)like Warcraft. Some games are justified to be cartoon-like, but Heroes is not. I think that Ubisoft should have made Heroes 5 a realistic 3D game, because that's just the tone that a serious strategic turn-based game like Heroes gives off. Heroes 3 was very realistic in terms of hero/creature shapes and proportions, and it worked very well.
4) How will multiplayer Heroes be pulled off (hotseat aside)? Simultaneous turns would not work because that will pretty much mess up the sequence of the game and if the turns are kept consecutive... the wait...
5) I saw someone else bring up this concern... will creatures be stacked in H5? I think the obvious answer is yes but the clip of the battle scene and all the other battle screenshots show no numbers next to the creatures.
|
|
MadeInChina278
Tavern Dweller
|
posted June 10, 2005 08:47 AM |
|
|
|
oops should have made this post in "Concepts and Wishes." Oh well.
|
|
a_rebirthing...
Supreme Hero
with rebirthing power
|
posted June 10, 2005 09:05 AM |
|
|
1) ubi bought the rights cause heroes is such a good game 
5) i think that this will not be shown because of the idea that ubi wants to reveal heroes to more players and ppl that are new will probably not like stacks so maybe they are going to put stacks in at the end
____________
'Tis better to rely on the the wit of your brain rather than the speed of your hands and mouse -me
Being happy isn't just an emotion, it's a choice!-Leo_Lion
It's Gortex!!!
|
|
guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
|
|
posted June 10, 2005 09:12 AM |
|
|
Quote:
5) I saw someone else bring up this concern... will creatures be stacked in H5? I think the obvious answer is yes but the clip of the battle scene and all the other battle screenshots show no numbers next to the creatures.
If I remember correctly, early magazine ads for Heroes 1 and 2 displayed battle and town pics without the stack numbers. It'll work the same way, hopefully, since I don't think I'll like parting with the stacks.
-guitarguy
____________
|
|
a_rebirthing...
Supreme Hero
with rebirthing power
|
|
posted June 10, 2005 09:19 AM |
|
|
i remember a screenshot with stacks. i just went through and there were 4 screenshots where stacks were present
____________
'Tis better to rely on the the wit of your brain rather than the speed of your hands and mouse -me
Being happy isn't just an emotion, it's a choice!-Leo_Lion
It's Gortex!!!
|
|
MadeInChina278
Tavern Dweller
|
posted June 10, 2005 09:23 AM |
|
|
whew
That's good to know... I can't imagine how sucky gameplay would be without stacked creatures. Thanks.
|
|
guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
|
posted June 10, 2005 09:26 AM |
|
|
Yes, there appear to be some HoMM2 pics with and without the stacks. I remember staring at those very ads while counting down the days till my birthday back in 1995 or 1996 (when I got my game). Those were fond memories.
-guitarguy
____________
|
|
Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
|
|
posted June 10, 2005 11:23 PM |
|
|
On 4. I think some days in the beginning might be simulataneous, but then later on it will not. Perhaps this will depend on map size or how close the armies are on the latest turn.
There was one mention of players being able to interact with the player having the turn to make it more difficult for them. Perhaps, you can cast a spell to slow down their army on the map. Or (though unlikely) optionally attack them if they come too close to your armies during their turn?
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
|
|
B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
|
|
posted June 11, 2005 03:10 PM |
|
|
What concerns me about h5 is that they took the easy route. I mean, it sounds like it'll be very close to H3. While H4 has some fatal flaws, there are areas which are clearly better (city siege - attacking through walls, towers with scalable power - in h3 they are either overpowered early or pathetic later). Or additional combat rules like line-of-sight requirement for ranged units. Or simultaneously dealt damage (less emphasis on who goes first, this allows for more tactics).
I'm disappointed to have unit choice system replaced with upgrade system. Seriously, there's hardly anything upgrade system adds to gameplay. Cases like Giant-Titan are very rare. In most cases upgrades change very little, yet they're pain in the ass when it comes to managing army. I mean, upgraded and unupgraded units have to occupy two separate stack slots. Even if 95% of H3 upgrades are so unoriginal that it could easily be allowed to have upgraded and unupgraded units in one stack (just take average of stats).
Honestly: do you use unupgraded units ? In large portion of scenarios they're replaced as quickly as possible. I got sick of same, schematic build order: dwellings for the first week, well on day7, upgrades in week2 and possibly dwelling7.
Buildings like Breeding Pens in H5 offered some alternatives. Either creature4, or +50% of all creatures: it wasn't always easy choice to make.
On the other hand, choice system meant that
1) towns had ability to adapt to circumstances
2) players had to make more strategic choices
3) you were never 100% sure what your opponent would bring against you. For example, Vampires sure were powerful, but Venom Spawn could be handle Titans in right circumstances (like towers, or Frenzy attack).
---------------------------------
Long story short : it looks like innovation is not primary idea behind Heroes5. I hope I'm wrong, but I have yet to hear about something innovative about H5.
|
|
Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
|
|
posted June 11, 2005 04:50 PM |
|
Edited By: Djive on 11 Jun 2005
|
Quote:
What concerns me about h5 is that they took the easy route. I mean, it sounds like it'll be very close to H3. While H4 has some fatal flaws, there are areas which are clearly better (city siege - attacking through walls, towers with scalable power - in h3 they are either overpowered early or pathetic later). Or additional combat rules like line-of-sight requirement for ranged units. Or simultaneously dealt damage (less emphasis on who goes first, this allows for more tactics).
City sieges have a lot of flaws both in H3 and H4. None of them are necessarily better than the other. I don't think Towers with own troops is such a good idea. It would be better if the power of the Tower increased for each day/week you owned town and losses taken in battle was simple lost, and players could target Turrets. I don't like the H4 system much.
Besides, do you have any news on siege system in H5 and could you then point us to that information?
Line of sight was horribly done in H4. I would never know when creatures had clear line of sight and when not. Again, it would need to be very much better implemented than in H4 or I'd rather not see it in game.
As for retaliation system, I'm very much indifferent to this choice. In heroes 4 my take is that it was a moot point whether creatures retaliated simultaneously or after the attack, since player would work around this in one of the dozens of ways available.
Quote:
I'm disappointed to have unit choice system replaced with upgrade system.
Who said there wasn't going to be any choices at all? Perhaps H5 has mixed upgrades with choices? Or has build trees that gives choices?
Quote:
I hope I'm wrong, but I have yet to hear about something innovative about H5.
Well, the ability system seems to be new to heroes 4. And each hero type/faction will select from unique abilities. This will make heroes belonging to different factions more unique/different than they have been before.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
|
|
MadeInChina278
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted June 12, 2005 02:35 AM |
|
|
Yes, H4 is definitely different than H3, but the two games shouldn't be compared in such a way to see "which is better." The makers of H4 wanted to try something very new (possibly because they were running out of workable options to improve on the basic format of H3) and thus H4 came out somewhat radically different than H3 or any of the previous Heroes series (probably except for the basic layout and concept of the game). So in a way, H4 is meant to be some kind of an "experiment" in the series of Heroes, to test whether players are willing to accept such radical changes or reject them.
It's great that you think H4 has such great improvements in gameplay, but you shouldn't blame Ubisoft for returning to the original layout set by H1,2, and 3. Gaming companies do not just decide to change a game without good reason. Ubisoft has probably been gathering data on what Heroes gamers prefer, the H3 format or the H4 format, and probably the results showed that most gamers like the traditional format set by H3. H3 was so well-crafted using the previous formats set by H1 and H2 that ya... in that case gamers can compare H2 to H3 and say that H3 is definitely better. But H4 is made using a very different format than H3, so you shouldn't be so quick to say that every "improvement" in H4 is better than that in H3. Those improvements are actually differences between the two game formats. But because Ubisoft decided to return to the traditional format for H5 (i.e. heroes cannot battle anymore)... then I think that when H5 comes out it should be compared to H3 and not H4.
____________
Conformity is only the work of an earlier nonconformist.
|
|
b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
|
|
posted June 21, 2005 10:31 PM |
|
|
I know many people (in polish Homm community) who claim that Homm2 (!) has the best graphics. It's because it doesn't pretend to look photorealistic, and has certain artistic feeling to it. I don't 100% agree, but they have a point.
Now, with relatively little diffrences between homm2, homm3 , and (I guess) homm5, hardcore players may be not so quick to jump onto H5.
----
In my opinion, H2 added the most to the serries. There was practically nothing that could be said was "worse than in homm1", and there was lots of extensions. More creatures, towns, buildings, skills, better spell system, graphics, bigger battlefield... Upgrades were optimal: few units were upgradable.
Leaving graphics aside, H3 could be made by 2-3 dedicated modders.
---------
Back to topic: make H5 innovative, but not so drastic like H4. In my opinion H3 was least innovative of all serries.
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
|
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
|
posted June 21, 2005 11:19 PM |
|
|
Quote:
In my opinion, H2 added the most to the serries. There was practically nothing that could be said was "worse than in homm1", and there was lots of extensions. More creatures, towns, buildings, skills, better spell system, graphics, bigger battlefield... Upgrades were optimal: few units were upgradable.
Leaving graphics aside, H3 could be made by 2-3 dedicated modders.
Heroes 2 had pathetic skill and magic systems, so did Heroes 3.
As for the aesthetics issue - been there, done that, and if someone thinks Heroes 2 had the best graphics (or WHATever), so be it.
Oh, Heroes 3 could NOT have been made by "2-3 dedicated modders", not with the existing editor and without the source code.
____________
|
|
MadeInChina278
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted June 22, 2005 05:05 AM |
|
|
What exactly is wrong with upgrading creatures anyways?
____________
Conformity is only the work of an earlier nonconformist.
|
|
MadeInChina278
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted June 22, 2005 05:25 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I know many people (in polish Homm community) who claim that Homm2 (!) has the best graphics. It's because it doesn't pretend to look photorealistic, and has certain artistic feeling to it. I don't 100% agree, but they have a point.
Actually I think that "pretending to look photorealistic" makes a game even more interesting. "Photorealism" is what makes a game seem more "real" and engaging as if it is actually happening. Why do you think so many gaming companies are making their games photorealistic? Imagine a world where the graphics in Heroes stayed equivalent to that of Asteroids.
Quote:
Now, with relatively little diffrences between homm2, homm3 , and (I guess) homm5, hardcore players may be not so quick to jump onto H5.
I don't know about this one. I may get sucked into H5 just for the multiplayer and graphics and I've played all the Heroes series.
Quote:
Back to topic: make H5 innovative, but not so drastic like H4. In my opinion H3 was least innovative of all serries.
Actually if you count the number of changes and innovations between H1 and H2 and H2 and H3 (in terms of towns, creatures, artifacts, spells, and general gameplay), I think H3 wins by a long shot. True, H2 is clearly better than H1, but I don't see how it beats H3.
____________
Conformity is only the work of an earlier nonconformist.
|
|
gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
|
|
posted June 22, 2005 01:09 PM |
|
|
completely agree to what borsuk said:
'no' to all units being upgradable. including the griffin upgrade that looks awkward imho.
MadeInChina278:Quote:
True, H2 is clearly better than H1, but I don't see how it beats H3.
that's easy: homm2 had better graphics integrity (same style used throughout the game), many creature models were better designed (e.g. gargoyle), ceratures were upgradable only when it more or less made sense, same level unit strengths were more different, and didn't have the imho arguable 'wait' option in combat.
as i understood, the original poster didn't claim that homm2 beats homm3 overall, he just said that homm2 didn't intruduce any flaws compared to homm1. the same cannot be said about homm3 compared to homm2.
|
|
b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
|
|
posted June 22, 2005 01:10 PM |
|
|
What I mean is that H3 is just "more H2". Same skill system (more skills), same magic system, two more towns, same battle rules, turrets, etc. It can easily be called "h2 expansion pack" as far as gameplay features go.
I'd even risk saying that H3 is based on mostly unmodified h2 engine.
In short: h3 has more content, but nothing essentially new. New creatures are new graphics, and few numbers changed. They have exactly the same stats (attack, defense, damage, speed etc). Same for artifacts - artifacts differ in amount of stat bonus, graphics, but few provide breath of fresh air. In this aspect, I'd say Homm2 expansion pack - Price for Loyalty - was more interesting than H3. There were fancy artifacts, too, and some of them required player to make choices (for example protection from fire at cost of cold vulnerability, or +2 to spell power at cost of defense, or similar)
Of course I meant more modding capabilities/source code. Take a look at Dominions2: graphics look 10 year old, but it has great, vibrant player base. The game is very moddable, and developers benefit from that directly - best balance fixes and ideas are added to official patches. And game sold enough copies so that Dom3 is being made.
---------------------
What's wrong with upgrades ?
- bonuses they give are simple stats bonuses, and usually fairly insignificant. +2 attack, +1 speed, cool ! You know what ? I'd prefer Centaur's axe (+2 attack for all creatures, magic trinket/treasure artifact), because it's WAAAY better). And you can find an artifact like Axe (or something boosting defense) just about everywhere.
- there's limited amount of creature slots, and upgraded ones take additional slots for no reason (having upgraded and unupgraded might be problematic in very few cases, but even then they can be easily solved). As a result, upgraded and unupgraded are pain to manage.
- it's not uncommon for players to don't buy unupgraded units at all. After all, population can't decrease except for plague. In most cases upgrades are cheap enough that you can buy them straight away. In such case, unupgraded don't see the light of the day, at all.
- you always want to upgrade if possible. No choice involved. Choices are good for strategy games, especially in multiplayer. Choices kill redundancy and boredom.
-----------
Vlaad: heroes3/2 has good skill system. What's sometimes annoying that some skills are of arguable usefulness, and you may be unable to avoid them.
H4 makes you stuck at 1-2 skill trees. Struggle as hard as you want, but increasing others will become very hard.
Remember what I said about choices ? In h4, you'll be mostly upgrading your few chosen skills (about 3) over and over. I'd like H4 skill system much more if max skill level was 3.
In h3, I'd fix some spells/skills to be more useful (just change numbers) and it would be ok. Homm series never received as much patches as necessary. You may complain about H4 vampires in multiplayer, but h3 necro was still banned in many games. In one particular standard map, necro could have more than ten (don't remember how many exactly) bone dragons by week2, thanks to Undead Transformer.
About H4 magic system: it has some serious flaws, like it or not. Some spells are gamebreaking, and there's nothing you can do about it, because dispel is no longer available to everyone . Cast Forgetfulness on Cyclops, and your enemy has just lost thousands in cash.Use Displacement (or whatever it was called) during siege, and your enemy can't put ranged stack on tower. Use teleport, and enemy hero/ranged stack is dead. The same school of magic, Order, also has spells like Berserker, Blind, improved Hypnosis, Mass Slow, and others. These are game-winning spells, and only 2 schools can remove hostile spells. They also work well on armies of any size.
Conclusion: what H4 needs sorely is simple dispel for all schools. Squirrels claim that H5 magic system will be similar to H4, but with some spells available to all schools. I hope it's true.
MadeInChina: Photorealism:
Honestly, does H3 look photorealistic for you ? H3 graphics is one of these "halfway there" graphics. Not yet good 3d, and not good 2D either. (ok, technically h3 graphics is 2D images, but these images have been rendered from 3D models and suchlike, especially creatures).
Creatures have certain plastic look about them. They look more like plastic figurines than real creatures.
I mean: either good 2D, or good 3D, let's have no halfmeasures here. H3 was made with rendered graphics because it was trendy at the time.
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
|
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
|
posted June 22, 2005 03:01 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Price for Loyalty - was more interesting than H3. There were fancy artifacts, too, and some of them required player to make choices (for example protection from fire at cost of cold vulnerability, or +2 to spell power at cost of defense, or similar)
There were those in H3, too. Not to mention combo artifacts...
Quote:
What's wrong with upgrades ?
- bonuses they give are simple stats bonuses, and usually fairly insignificant. +2 attack, +1 speed, cool ! You know what ? I'd prefer Centaur's axe (+2 attack for all creatures, magic trinket/treasure artifact), because it's WAAAY better). And you can find an artifact like Axe (or something boosting defense) just about everywhere.
- there's limited amount of creature slots, and upgraded ones take additional slots for no reason (having upgraded and unupgraded might be problematic in very few cases, but even then they can be easily solved). As a result, upgraded and unupgraded are pain to manage.
- it's not uncommon for players to don't buy unupgraded units at all. After all, population can't decrease except for plague. In most cases upgrades are cheap enough that you can buy them straight away. In such case, unupgraded don't see the light of the day, at all.
- you always want to upgrade if possible. No choice involved. Choices are good for strategy games, especially in multiplayer. Choices kill redundancy and boredom.
I agree with everything you wrote here. I do like upgrades, mind you, but I would like to see Disciples' upgrade tree combined with WoG's stack experience. Needless to say, new skills are a must - otherwise, creatures are just numbers.
Quote:
heroes3/2 has good skill system.
Oh, puh-leez! A barbarian hero who can fly after he captures the nearest Tower? An undead hero with Expert Diplomacy?
Quote:
H4 makes you stuck at 1-2 skill trees. Struggle as hard as you want, but increasing others will become very hard.
It depends on the size of the map.
Quote:
I'd like H4 skill system much more if max skill level was 3.
I agree.
Quote:
About H4 magic system: it has some serious flaws, like it or not. Some spells are gamebreaking
In H3 there were Fly, Dimension Door and omnipotent Town Portal.
Quote:
dispel is no longer available to everyone . Cast Forgetfulness on Cyclops, and your enemy has just lost thousands in cash. [etc]
That's why it's called TBS! If your main hero is a general and can't dispel it, counter it! There's Magic Resistance, there's second hero who is a caster, there is a creature choice...
What about level 1 Expert Slow or Haste for the barbarian in H3?!
Quote:
I mean: either good 2D, or good 3D, let's have no halfmeasures here.
Since it seems to be a matter of taste, I'll post mine, too, just for the record: Heroes 2 had neither, it was bad 2D (while H5 will have bad 3D). The creatures were not cartoony, not fairy-tale-like, not stylizied - they were just ugly. There.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.
____________
|
| |
|
|
