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| Thread: Somtimes I get Scared... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 21, 2005 08:47 PM |
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Nice to hear about the verdict...unfourtunately it was only classified as manslaughter.
Personaly I think that he should it should have been murder, he'll end his life in prison anyway...
As far as I know there have been similair trials in the past, which is only good and shows that the "Hate Crime Law" is beig upholded.
But the problem is not in a law persucuting hate crimes, it is in the porapgation of it.
Unfourtunately thanks to the highly orthodox american way of explaing the term "Free Speech" such a law will not be passed in the US.
Personaly I find this riddiculous. Free speech is one thing, and the progation of Nazism is another.
Just stick to the old truth that "My freedom ends where another mans starts." Meaning it is only my freedom to the point where it doesn't interfeer with someonelses, which is the case here.
Most civilized countries have a law which bans evry sort of Nazi propaganda. If its symbols, songs, psoters, publications ect.ect.
Even here it is normal for a police raid on Nazi happenigns such as concerts. You see people arrested for selling items such as Nazi CDs, books and magazines, badges, medals and so on...
There has been some progres made into solving this problem,but frankly and honestly I think it isn't enouhg and probably never will be. But something has to be done...
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 21, 2005 09:00 PM |
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Sir Dunco, many people here in the U.S. (myself among them) believe that permitting Naziist organizations to exist is too similar to "incitement to riot" because their entire purpose is racial supremacy based on racial hatred, which (it seems to me) inevitably leads to violence against the groups in question.
But the Constitutional issue does create a real tug-of-war over this issue, and strict constitutionalists would argue that banning any form of speech activity would start a "slippery slope" of increasing censorchip. So they ban the violence part and permit the speech part, thus presumably upholding the concept of "my freedom ends where another person begins."
I've actually heard good arguments on both sides, I just tend to come down on the same side as you after all is said and done. We can talk more about this if you want.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 21, 2005 09:05 PM |
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I agree with free speech, but does it matter all that much? I mean, is free speech so important as to permit hatred propaganda?
I don't know. To me sounds absurd. How about making death threats in a speech format? is that permitted?
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 21, 2005 09:11 PM |
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Good to hear that you are with me on this one PM  ...and i know that there has been a disscusion on the free speech, but it still leaves me bamboozeled as tp why nothing has been done and it still is the same as it was...
I know how much the US builds on it's priciple of abosnowe freedom, but...I still it's something that i can't get into my head quite properly
I absolitely agree with you Connan... zou captured the point pefectly
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 21, 2005 11:34 PM |
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I think you would find a fairly strong concensus in America that holds freedom of speech as one of the most cherished cornerstones of the society, which is why this is such a big contentious issue here.
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DonGio
Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
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posted June 22, 2005 12:17 PM |
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Fortunately, the neo nazis and the fascists have very few sympathizers in Norway these days.
Unfortunately, the far right everyday racist party are among the the biggest parties here. These are people who have somehow got the impression that they have somehow deserved their lives. I think I'll make a separate thread about this.
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There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 22, 2005 01:51 PM |
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Quote:
Unfortunately, the far right everyday racist party are among the the biggest parties here. These are people who have somehow got the impression that they have somehow deserved their lives. I think I'll make a separate thread about this.
Well there isn't a huge number of neo-nazis anywhere but the people who sympathise with them or aprove of their doings are quite plentiful... I know of cases where parent's actualy encouraged their teenege kids in their actions...
Far right parties are popular everywhere, and that is another problem related to the Nazis. It's this everyday or "soft" racizm.
A problem that alows people like LePen to gain a huge percentage of votes.
And I can asure you that all neonazis vote for people like this...
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 22, 2005 03:12 PM |
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talking about Norway, isn't your prime minister part of the Christian party? A party dominated by "christian" beleifs?
I really find it odd that such a party, that is not in a majority may form a coalition so that the most popular party, a more social democratic one, could not do anything to stop it. Why is it the left did not unite like the right in Norway? Why wait to form a coalition in September when you could form one now and act before the next Parliament??
Anyways, back to racism, I beleive any religion is racist to a point if they don't tolerate other religions like the catholic-protestant issues and all that is happening in the middle East. You see, racism goes alot further than extreme groups of white supremists, it is present in our everyday life. Every time we look at a Muslim person or at a Black person, it happens in most cases that the white person will not treat that person equally.
And as long as this will continue, extreme racist groups will continue to exist. In the way our brain functions it is normal to some extent to classify groups, but to discriminize is very much a different thing. As we act like this everyday with most of us not even noticing it, we are in fact contributing to the existence of these extreme groups by our own actions. If we could/would stop ourselves from the everyday "little" racism, we would certainly see these groups dissapear and see better condition for the different cultures that live in our country.
My point is that people don't realize that by the judment they make towards foreigners, they contribute to this major problem. And this is far from being over - that's why it's so scary, as SirDunco put it - because we caused it and keep this ideology alive.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted June 23, 2005 02:33 AM |
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Very good points, Conan.
Quote:
Anyways, back to racism, I beleive any religion is racist to a point if they don't tolerate other religions like the catholic-protestant issues and all that is happening in the middle East. You see, racism goes alot further than extreme groups of white supremists, it is present in our everyday life. Every time we look at a Muslim person or at a Black person, it happens in most cases that the white person will not treat that person equally.
To expand one bit more on this; I think division along ethnic or religious lines is a necessary precondition for such discrimination. The more importance people give to it, the more the likelihood for discrimination increases. Bringing these divisions in the public shere, will inevitably highlight those lines. The religious ideology itself isnt the problem; the way it can be used as an instrument by certain political structures or power centers for achieving goals is a great one. (the most obvious example being/was the situation in Serbia; Greece doesnt lag far behind either)
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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LadyGuenivere
Known Hero
Spam Deep-Fryer Mod-Repellant
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posted June 23, 2005 10:41 PM |
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I am scared of this conversation!!!
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What happened to Lady Guiniwhere anyway?
- FoG
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2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 23, 2005 11:41 PM |
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Quote:
In US free speech has no limits. You can say anything you want, and its ur democratic right to form a party or organization whith whatever agenda comes to mind. On the other hand, its illegal to spit on a street or forgetting to get rid of your garbage in some districts. One word - Americans....
As for Neo-Nazi, I must say I'm pleased I dont see much scum on hte treets lately. U see Skinheas very rarely on the streets, but they are so brainless green boys that they dont even know what they represent. I'm much more concerned about the actual ideology that is still much present (of course, in its own little Macedonian context; not surprising for a poor multicultural country), and not its parade costumes.
Theres a difference.
Illegal to spit on a street or forgetting to get rid of your garbage. Sure, one wont hurt will it? Ok take a city the size of new york, have everyone spit on the street at the same time and throw one article of garbage out on the street. They dont have to clean it up, they dont care. But there are people whose jobs you have just made ten times worse. Not to mention it costs tax dollars to fund cleanup crews, and it makes the city look like downright snow.
Freedom of speech is a right by nature. You are entitled to share your thoughts with whoever you wish. It dont cost money and hard work to speak.
Thx and GG'd.
About Neo Nazi's, i have stated repeatedly i hate people who discriminate based on Nationality, Race, Religon or Sex. If a war erupted over that issue, i would be on the front lines against the racists.
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 24, 2005 09:03 AM |
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Quote:
To expand one bit more on this; I think division along ethnic or religious lines is a necessary precondition for such discrimination. The more importance people give to it, the more the likelihood for discrimination increases. Bringing these divisions in the public shere, will inevitably highlight those lines. The religious ideology itself isnt the problem; the way it can be used as an instrument by certain political structures or power centers for achieving goals is a great one. (the most obvious example being/was the situation in Serbia; Greece doesnt lag far behind either)
You are right Svarog, ethnic and religious division is the very base of discrimination, racism and hate crimes. And this isn't just a european problem. Same things happen in Africa, South America, Asia, everywhere.
It is something in human nature that allows some to get easily manipulated by ideology and then makes them belive that because of something so stupid as religion, or skin colour, nationality they are better then others. It is just a matter of influence and upbringing, something we all can change and that if there was enough will wouldn't have to be such a problem as it is.
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Leo_Lion
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
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posted June 27, 2005 09:38 AM |
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I ran across this article on "MSN Today" and thought that it was appropriate to the theme of this Thread. Have a read here.
I was glad to hear that there were more people that showed up to protest against the initial activity, than those who were actually there for the actual Nazi-rally.
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*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 28, 2005 11:08 PM |
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A rather dissturbing but yet comical article.
The dissturbing thing is that such a rally actualy can be held, which is tottaly unlogical in any way you look at it. To freely allow the propagation of hate and racist propaganda, is not free speach, it's an idiocity. As i said i don't understand this and probably never will...
The comical thing is ofcourse the "great" number of neo-nazis attending this, this thing. Funny...
And their whole views and pathetic believes. Still it's weird how an idea like Nazis, which is based on the dominance of the "Nordic(or Germanic) race" can catch on. The ancestors of those attending it probably came from all over the world, slavs, germans, italians, dutch, hungarians, irish and so on... sometimes i just don't understand...
Just for a show of the actions of our pathetuc friends here is an article that I found on the BBC...an older one but it serves the point.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3219199.stm
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