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| Thread: Can a cheater/liar "heal"? | |
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GabyStan
Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
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posted October 03, 2005 08:06 PM |
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Can a cheater/liar "heal"?
...or How to recognize the difference between a mistake and a habit.
I decided to start this after reading Russ' post here.
1. Let's say a very nice guy, after gives you info about the map you are playing him and/or what can a Pandora Box contain, how many Dragons may be into the Utopia and so on, lies to you he didn't notice your troops are standing in the Garrison and the hero is almost naked, after all those days he just stood his ground expecting you to make a move on HIS terrain, well, can you expect him next time to act honorable and come on neutral terrain to fight it out, WITHOUT deceiving at all?
2. A player tells you he didn't play much on Desert War, takes red colour then comes onto you day 8, having visited the Seer Hut and with the Helmet on, enters your refugee camp and buys a Lvl7 creature there, then positions his main hero just a few steps before your capital cutting your way back to take troops for main, is this a TRUSTING fellow?
3. You play on Battlemania, all Lvl7 dwellings on the islands around your capital, both players play Dungeon and "no creatures at all in second town" rule is on, then you are attacked with 50% more Blackies than you have, you wonder how's that possible, and after you are beaten up you load and notice he had Portal of Summoning in his second Dungeon Town. This after in the first game the guy said he only played that map a few times, then saying to you after kicking your butt: "Well, it was a bit more than just a FEW times" and laughs (I don't know why I played him the second time, really). So, is your man a wily or just accident(s)?
4. You play "no combo rule" and agree you have to disassemble any combo found (coz it's not fair for one to find the Helmet for +6 to all and the other player Titan's Thunder and not use it at all), then in final fight you are demolished with Armageddon and notice the enemy troops are not even scratched. "Oh, yes, it's Armageddon's Blade, hehe!", you tell yourself happy to solve the mistery. You question the opponent, he says: "Nooo, it's not AB, is Fire Book with expert Fire Magic and some cape making your troops half (or almost, I don't recall exactly his words) immune to Armageddon and so on. After you lose by a moustache you are terribly frustrated, for you disassembled Power of The Dragon Father (gives you Lvl 1-4 spells immunity). You have nothing to do coz you didn't save the rules agreed, although the focus is the opponent's behaviour, right? After the game, you find out he's a neighbour and good friend of a real nice and honorable Legionnaire on ToH, who's also your friend and tells you it was just a mistake. Then, after a sincere (I hope) mea culpa, you forgive the man and shake hands with him for a friendship. But can you REALLY trust that guy again? I mean 100%?
5. You play blue colour on West vrs East, pick up artifacts one by one week2, your opponent verbalizing his anger his skills don't go up as fast as yours, then he breaks onto you a few days later and smashes your superior troops (both in skills and in hit points) with Implosion. "Hehe, a nice one, he's got the 'Book of Certain Death'". So what can you do? Ok, ok, he's a youngster under 20, but is he truly honorable? You know what to do next time, it's really simple: just don't EVER listen to that guy during play. But won't he come up with some other tricks to get that VITAL win?
Etc. etc.
A last mention here, bare with me please! There is a good possibility for a cheater to slowly get back his honor (on ToH) playing lots of fair games and replacing the Poor/Disgraceful Honor with High/Highest Honor. Will he NOW start cheating again? Can a liar heal and become truly honest?
Final, rhetorical (almost) question:
Russ' guy from his post, Immortal, has High Honor on ToH, so HOW CAN BE A CHEATER? HOW, Russ?
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Your worst enemy is... yourself.
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lkru33
Promising
Famous Hero
3x NFL Pick'em Champ
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posted October 03, 2005 08:25 PM |
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Quote:
(Fill in any name here) has High Honor on ToH, so HOW CAN BE A CHEATER? HOW, Russ?
Just because someone has High Honor on ToH, does not necessarily mean he has never cheated or won't cheat if it is a really close game, just to get that extra edge. Many inexperienced players may not know how to catch a cheat if it happened against them and would chalk it up as a loss and report the opponent had High Honor anyways. Myself, I don't even get suspicious unless drops happen. Even then, I don't really take the time to look at saves unless it happens a LOT and the player is unknown to me.
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durell
Adventuring Hero
Sub-n00b
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posted October 03, 2005 08:29 PM |
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HEHE nice topic,i find that even the most "honorable" players can be misleading when it comes to ingame advice etc. especially if they are thinking they may take a loss when they offered you a particular game because they where expecting to earn some nice juicy (and almost free) points.HMMM that raises a point in itself....how honarable is a player that only offers you a game because they fully expect to slay ya.*questions his own honor at this point*....lol.
anyone ever hear from thier opponent " c'mon finish it now.....head due east i'm sick of this" so ya mosy on eastward only to find out 3 days later that your opponent was westward,buying time to hit a tope,call me gullible if ya like,i prefer to think of it as trusting.whoever said " alls fair in love and war" never played heroes,my advice is this.......seek advice about a template from an independant source.....if ya need to play a fixed map,either study it or expect a loss,sad but true.
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Stars are just pin holes in the curtain of night.
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GabyStan
Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
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posted October 03, 2005 08:44 PM |
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Quote:
Just because someone has High Honor on ToH, does not necessarily mean he has never cheated or won't cheat if it is a really close game, just to get that extra edge...
I know this LKru33, coz ALL those above mentioned players apear AT LEAST Honorable on ToH (the ones subscribed). My question was meant to underline there's no certain way to find out if a player is honorable or not. I'm suspecting lots of them use little tricks you can't notice without a very careful look to your (auto)saves. (For example you can pick up joiners in a "no joiners" game, use those in a fight that very day and lose them either in the battle or by dismissing the remaining ones - this I suspect you can't discover at all, for you can say you let the critters flee and beat the tough monsters near by using only your tactical skills.)
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Your worst enemy is... yourself.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted October 03, 2005 08:45 PM |
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Quote:
Final, rhetorical (almost) question:
Russ' guy from his post, Immortal, has High Honor on ToH, so HOW CAN BE A CHEATER? HOW, Russ?
We were playing a WW game. WW has only one common rules that everyone must follow: FMG (fight misplaced guards) on random maps.
I was on grass, he was on dirt (this is an important fact!). So, I find out the map is a bit buggy. The small unguarded passage below his ore mine connects our two areas. So, I say "ok" to myself and turn back without touching his ore or taking one single step further (like every honorable player I know would have done). What do I see on day 5? His main has crossed over to my land, took my artie and was preparing to do some further exploration (he didn't know it was my area yet).
I tell him that he crossed over to my area without fighting any guards, which is breaking the FMG rule and I offered him to REPLAY HIS TURN. (How it is possible to NOT notice crossing over from dirt to grass? That's just beyond me, but I assumed it could be the case.)
What did he do? He whined for like an hour that he never broke any rules because there were no guards around that passage to fight and obviously the game never got reported or finished.
Just as a side note: I was doing much better than he did. I had Gundula, I took a cav dwell + gold mine on day 2 and I made a mistake of telling it to him. Also, my resources and gold showed as being higher than his on every turn.
If he is so honorable, then why did he feel the need to cross over and collect the items in an area he wasn't supposed to be in once he realized he needs an edge against me? And why didn't he say "sorry, my bad", replay his turn and continue the game? (which at that time looked like it would result in a loss considering my better start.)
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted October 03, 2005 08:55 PM |
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Quote:
I know this LKru33, coz ALL those above mentioned players apear AT LEAST Honorable on ToH
Tell me how many players on TOH do NOT have at least honorable rating? Even the obvious droppers and cheaters there have honorable rating. 99.9% won't notice the "lil cheats" and won't waste their time looking at a save for every turn. They'll just report a win/loss and select "honorable" in the options. Even if someone actually does notice a cheater, this one game won't change anything. And if you drop on week 1, you can't even report a game on TOH, so how would they get a bad honor for an unreported game?
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GabyStan
Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
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posted October 03, 2005 08:57 PM |
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Hehe, I hope my final Q above is not taken literally!
It had been fair enough to replay his turn, one may not know it's not possible (sometimes it is, right?) to have some other kind of turf inside his area, but when he's explained to and offerd a replay surely he must accept it, if honorable. No question about it, Russ.
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Your worst enemy is... yourself.
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lkru33
Promising
Famous Hero
3x NFL Pick'em Champ
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posted October 03, 2005 09:00 PM |
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Quote:
I know this LKru33, coz ALL those above mentioned players apear AT LEAST Honorable on ToH (the ones subscribed). My question was meant to underline there's no certain way to find out if a player is honorable or not. I'm suspecting lots of them use little tricks you can't notice without a very careful look to your (auto)saves. (For example you can pick up joiners in a "no joiners" game, use those in a fight that very day and lose them either in the battle or by dismissing the remaining ones - this I suspect you can't discover at all, for you can say you let the critters flee and beat the tough monsters near by using only your tactical skills.)
I suppose there is no way of really finding out if a player is not 100% Honorable. Is it really worth the time and effort? If I lose a game to someone and that person had to cheat to win, how does that person feel about that win? I know I wouldn't feel good about a win that I didn't deserve. The great thing about this game is that on any given day, a lesser player can beat a top player if he/she plays an exceptional game. If you win a game like that and did so with honor and great game play, then you will have a great feeling because of that win. If you cheat along the way, even if the opponent doesn't catch you, you don't have that same feeling of satisfaction. Isn't that what we play the game for?
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted October 03, 2005 09:12 PM |
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I still canīt get it why there are obviously so many cheaters playing this game. Is it so much worth to gain any ranks and points to take the risk of getting a bad reputation and even get banned from a nice place where u can meet and talk to good people?
Why the heck is it so hard to give someone a reload, even if he is OBVIOUSLY in the lead? Itīs not honorable to give a reload when i know iīm far better in the current game, but it is when u give it ANY time. Everyone can make a faultm could calculate his strength wrong, could hope for 60 creeps when reading hordes and has to face 97 then. So what?
And when u loose that game after u gave a reload, so what? Next time it could be you who takes the win coz of a reload.
I donīt play that much games lately, but i doubt anyone could talk bad about my behaviour. I give a reload anytime. I also tell my opponent (especially on jebus), that this could be an unfair game coz i see already 4 lev6+7 dewlls, 3 topes and 3 cons on day 4....so we start a new one. Thatīs not honorable, thatīs normal. Am i wrong here?
Just play the game how it was created for....FUN...FUN and again FUN.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted October 03, 2005 09:17 PM |
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Quote:
one may not know it's not possible (sometimes it is, right?) to have some other kind of turf inside his area
On random map? Never. You always have 1 turf per area. And although you *could* make a random template with unguarded passage, NONE of the known random templates have that setting.
So, you ALWAYS have to fight something to cross over to a different area.
I mean: sometimes you can accidentally cross over to a similar area without knowing it (i.e. grass to grass), but how can a player who played 100-s of random maps cross over from dirt to grass "by accident"?
It was lucky for me that he crossed over to my area, actually! Because on Jebus there are a total of 4 starting areas. If it was one of the other 2 empty areas, he could have collected everything from it, and I would never know (unless I decided to look at the save after the game is finished).
I'll ask Azure to specifically mention that FMG rule loophole in the WW rules, so next time I run into this, I can submit a save and get that player suspended.
I think having an extra starting area loaded with 20-40K of treasure is too much of an unfair advantage to just ignore it.
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GabyStan
Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
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posted October 03, 2005 09:51 PM |
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On random map? Never. You always have 1 turf per area. And although you *could* make a random template with unguarded passage, NONE of the known random templates have that setting.
So, you ALWAYS have to fight something to cross over to a different area.
I mean: sometimes you can accidentally cross over to a similar area without knowing it (i.e. grass to grass), but how can a player who played 100-s of random maps cross over from dirt to grass "by accident"?
Funny thing is in my game with Maretti (the one I gave as an example onto "General strategy" thread) I loaded my autosaves and found out there was a break into the mountains, so we could cross each others territory (grass and grass). 
Btw, Maretti has got even more Shrines than me, so I laughed onto the floor when seeing it. Never mind he had Utopia, Library of Enlightenment, Conservatory and a couple of A+D buildings, plus significantly more money and a much better area (open in all directions around his castle). So my supossed Tope was (also) on his side, after all. ) Not his fault, obviously.
Gosh, I feel like whining. 
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Your worst enemy is... yourself.
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durell
Adventuring Hero
Sub-n00b
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posted October 03, 2005 09:53 PM |
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I would NOT give a reload 100% of the time.if my opponent lost 1 angel fighting a full tope so that they can get that edge on me when i have no cons/lvl 6 or 7 dwell on jebus week 2.well they still have the edge if they get NO reload.....so why give?
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Stars are just pin holes in the curtain of night.
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GabyStan
Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
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posted October 03, 2005 10:00 PM |
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Quote:
I would NOT give a reload 100% of the time.if my opponent lost 1 angel fighting a full tope so that they can get that edge on me when i have no cons/lvl 6 or 7 dwell on jebus week 2.well they still have the edge if they get NO reload.....so why give?
Sure, Durell. No one said will give reloads every time the opponent feels he can do a better fight. Only on those ocasions he's misjudging some fights and DIES in the process or loses ALL chances of rebalancing the game. Right?
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Your worst enemy is... yourself.
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 03, 2005 11:32 PM |
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Quote:
On random map? Never. You always have 1 turf per area. And although you *could* make a random template with unguarded passage, NONE of the known random templates have that setting.
So, you ALWAYS have to fight something to cross over to a different area.
There are 3 templates you dont have to: the midnight template "roadrunner" (no guards at all except for obvious artie, dwelling, treasure guards etc) and the original 3do templates "ring" and "dragons"
Btw on the reload thing. I tend to give reloads to people I know and play very often...I rarely give relaods to really good players and they rarely ask for it anyway. If I kill myself on a stack of 90 cavs when I was hoping for 50...well then I concede
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Myctteakyshd
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted October 03, 2005 11:40 PM |
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I was talking about the known templates 
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 04, 2005 04:45 AM |
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Well ring and dragons...they are very known: before template theory these were 2 commonly known temps and very commonly played. Those days were awesome, you loaded, you got a certain template, you played it. Took so much skill and variance of strategy to be a good random player. None of this fixed map/random map hybrid nonsense
Roadrunner should be known, played it many times myself...a purely "open" template, it test your skills in many different ways. But we know what people prefer these days dont we? the imbalance and pure ridiculous ricnhess of jebus...or the boring predictability of blockbuster.
It would be so refreshing to see someone come to the zone and challenge me to a drwarven tunnels, or 8xm8 game. Or even a no template inserted random and play whatever ever turns up on random towns....even 200% diff, they are awesome games but they just arent explored anymore 
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted October 04, 2005 07:27 AM |
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I didn't get that first part, you guys actually play games where you decide where to meet and when for the fight?  Good job
About reloading ummmm, don't reload. I usually give reloads if players ask, but I don't ask for reloads.
If you lost a battle and feel like you can't continue, just report your loss, don't ask for restarts. I lost my main hero before and played on (and actually won eventually). Of course if you lose all creatures you got + main hero, well you're kinda screwed (most of the time).
*Takes out a bottle of old rum and pours ryche a shot*
Tell me about it mate.
Jebus = the antichrist of random maps. I don't play on toh right now (too much other stuff to do), but I asked quite a few people if they'd like to play ring or - templates they haven't played before. Yeah, imagine the amount of ppl that were willing to play that.
A lot of my game convos in the zone went something like this.
Player: Template?
Zsa: Cube, Balance, Panic, True Random, Skirmish, M Mix, NO Jebus please
Player: Sorry, I want to play jebus
Or
Player: I don't know these templates, I know mostly jebus
To which I answer
Zsa: Ok then how about we play a template that neither of us has played before?
Or
Zsa: How about we play an open template like Ring?
The answer, regardless to what I say is
Player: Nah, I'm gonna stick with jebus.
What can I say, It's like trying to argue with a religious fanatic that God doesn't exist.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted October 04, 2005 03:23 PM |
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Quote:
...It would be so refreshing to see someone come to the zone and challenge me to a drwarven tunnels, or 8xm8 game. Or even a no template inserted random and play whatever ever turns up on random towns....even 200% diff, they are awesome games but they just arent explored anymore
Wow...there do exist people who like these cool old 3DO templates? Dwarven tunnels is very cool, but on 200% could be boring...no fort and no dwells for the start....depends much on starting hero and army.
But if u r up for such a template on weekend (friday, saturday) i would be glad to get a random on one of these going.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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lkru33
Promising
Famous Hero
3x NFL Pick'em Champ
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posted October 04, 2005 03:26 PM |
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For me I will give a reload most of the time. Typically the better players will never ask for one, and rarely need one... but on occasions, probably due to lack of concentration or bad luck, a bad fight occurs, even then the better players would offer you the game. I will insist on a reload because I don't like playing for hours and not having an endfight. I don't see enjoyment out of winning a game when someone commits suicide.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted October 04, 2005 05:34 PM |
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Quote:
It would be so refreshing to see someone come to the zone and challenge me to a drwarven tunnels, or 8xm8 game. Or even a no template inserted random and play whatever ever turns up on random towns....even 200% diff, they are awesome games but they just arent explored anymore
Actually, Dwarven Tunnels 200% is my favorite template. And 200% is the only way it can be fun for me because it is so challenging in the beginning where you need to carefully set your priorities since your army is so limited. I'll play you if you are around on the weekend.
I also like built in templates. In your case you'll have a big advantage since you already know what to expect on most of them, but the extra challenge can only improve the game.
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