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| Thread: Extreme Battles |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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lkru33
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posted October 04, 2005 07:25 PM |
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Edited By: lkru33 on 4 Oct 2005
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Extreme Battles
Throng of Efreet Sultans, Throng of Champions, Lots of Black Dragons, Horde of Green Dragons, etc....
What are some strategies for taking on these fights without mass slow or force field and with minimum losses? (sometimes main doesn't get offerend earth)
Lets say you are in the begining of Month 2 on Extreme template and didn't get lucky with external dwellings...
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Russ
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posted October 04, 2005 08:04 PM |
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Edited By: Russ on 4 Oct 2005
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Quote:
Throng of Efreet Sultans, Throng of Champions, Lots of Black Dragons, Horde of Green Dragons, etc....
What are some strategies for taking on these fights without mass slow or force field and with minimum losses? (sometimes main doesn't get offerend earth)
Lets say you are in the begining of Month 2 on Extreme template and didn't get lucky with external dwellings...
Dragons? Without mass slow it is quite hard. And mass slow doesn't work well against the dragons anyways  .
Castle is the easiest in those fights. You can take AAs, cavs, crusaders, pikes (those will have to die), wyverns (those will die as well) and level 1-2 fodder from your 2-ndary towns (but only if you have enough, otherwise it is better to just use single stacks of fast fodder instead). It is very important that your pike and wyvern stacks are much weaker than the crusaders and cavs, if one of them is too big, split it in 2. Once the fodder dies, the mean guys will go for one of crusaders or cavs - it is your job from now on do your best to avoid any damage on the other one (casting shield or stone skin on the other one will help). AAs will res the damaged stack in the end. You'll end up losing your pikes and wyverns and you'll have 6 full armies left.
Throng of Champions? That one is the easiest I think, you can cast slow, blind, or paralyze on as many stacks as you can while the others are held back by your fast fodder (you'll have to move it forward right away). They also take 2 hexes, so it could be possible to single them out using the above strategies and kill their stacks 1 by 1. If you are on a lucky terrain (the one with the big obstacles in the middle) you have even better chances of killing them without losses.
Throng of Sultans? I'd just stay away from those. Only way of killing them that I know is archery+mass slow. Trying to kill them with your AAs, beths or other meleers is suicidal. If you have archery+tactics and a lot of ranged firepower, you can surround the archers with fodder and shoot them down. They are also immune to blind and paralyze, they only take 1 hex and with their 13 speed you need to be prepared to get damaged by all of them every turn. And 100+ efreet sultans can deal quite a bit of damage! I don't see a way of killing those without severe losses. I would just wait for your opponent to come for you
Come to think of it - if any of the fights looks too hard - you may want to wait for an opponent to lose half his army fighting those. It is better than losing 1/2 your army and most of your mana on those just to have to fight your enemy with full army and full mana.
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lkru33
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posted October 04, 2005 08:13 PM |
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LOL I suppose mass slow wouldn't help much against dragons either.
I've used castle as well and find that it is easier to make these fights than with most other castles because of the resurrect capability of the AA's and the 2 shooter stacks.
How about Rampart? No blind, 60-70 grand elves, 6 golds 16 unis...
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angelito
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posted October 04, 2005 08:47 PM |
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I had exactly that situation on my last game with tigris. Extreme II template, both stronghold. My main was Tyraxor. I didnīt get offered earth, nor did i even found slow anywhere (nor blind). I only had expert air as magic skill, other skills were typical for barbarians (tactics, offense, armorer, log...) . Week 5, first break was horde of giants (75), which wasnīt that hard, then hordes of chaos (60) and then lots of Archangels (35). In all fights, i used my 21 Ancients (2 dwells), about 20 kings, 25 ogremagi and 55 orcchieftains. 4 single goblins as fodder. Those 21 ABīs (ONE stack) sure frightened the enemy stacks , so all i lost in all 3 fights were my 4 single goblins (expert haste, let them gobs go straight to the top and bottom stacks, so u can split them enemies into 2 "teams"). Again 1 thing helped me out in the fight against the AAīs, coz they all went first. I had all 3 warmachines equipped. So 3 stacks went for them, 3 others went for the goblins.
So i can repeat it again and again....always try to have as much warmachines with u as u can. Also give your scouts these machines to replace them on your main. Sure i didnīt attack hordes / throng of firebirds or any other dragons on that amount, coz the would have decimated my army a lot.
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Russ
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posted October 04, 2005 08:55 PM |
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Quote:
How about Rampart? No blind, 60-70 grand elves, 6 golds 16 unis...
I think rampart will get pwn3d lyk a m0f0
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angelito
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posted October 04, 2005 08:59 PM |
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Yeah...would say it like (or similar  ) Russ said. You will do hard without a good powerstack when u donīt have earth, slow, blind or resurrection.
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lkru33
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posted October 04, 2005 09:09 PM |
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LOL well that is good to know. At least I can learn what is possible and what isn't.
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Xarfax111
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posted October 04, 2005 11:35 PM |
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..lets call it "ali in africa"-strategy..it works like this:
You need the "spirit of opression" to make it calculateable.
You have one powerstack with you. For example Archangels. You place the Archangels in a way that the second comp stack can attack it. You cast shield and wait. The second comp stack now hits the Archangel and gets reduced to half or something. The other Stacks just go forward. Now u reduce this stack another time so that about 1 or 2 only are left.
The next round you cure your Archangels and just put them in the upper left corner. Now the first dragon hit and gets the retaliation. The second reduced one will stay to the end, cause this one will never get the retaliation. So now u can eliminate the other stacks one by another by simply using cure to keep all Archangels alive, while the reduced stack is keeping the other stacks away.
War Machines and especialy a tent surounded by fodder helps a lot.
Xarfax1
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Xarfax111
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posted October 04, 2005 11:40 PM |
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If uve to face dragons u can also reduce them with scouts simply by using their breath with tactics...just think about what 15 Greens do to 15 Greens, and this 2 times per scout
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rychenroller
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posted October 04, 2005 11:47 PM |
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The 3 key things for extreme are earth which is obviously a no brainer (99% cant win without unless you are maretti and hack ), the black orb and makw sure you keep your town archers intact, they are super important. By the time you are attacking the desert breaks, you need em badly ince you attack that throng of efreet or champs or whatever.
They absolute key to extreme after that are the necro boxes. Its possible to develop an army of 20 bone drags or 15 ghost drags or 20/30 black/dreads. These guys take the place of the troops you have lost (generally the critters in the first 4 levels in your town bar the important ones....grand elves etc) coz yes, you will lose em.
The other important thing are wyverns. Either as fodder or an army in itself 20-30 wyverns going into the desert helps immensely, if you have 10-15 they are excellent fodder for that big stuff.
Also its not a rush template, you have time. Even if you see your opponent get their 3rd/4th town very quickly, the break between players in the desert will be a horde of level 7 (throng if a weaker one). If you cant get slow...build guilds for fire spells like blind, berserk, arma if you have dungeon, inferno or antmagic.
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Myctteakyshd
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Russ
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posted October 05, 2005 12:00 AM |
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Quote:
If uve to face dragons u can also reduce them with scouts simply by using their breath with tactics...just think about what 15 Greens do to 15 Greens, and this 2 times per scout
I am not exactly sure how this will work. AI will split the dragons in 7 evenly divided stacks and they will kill your fodder on round 1 without ever giving you a chance to use their retal.
Also - I liked your dragon tactics. However, you mentioned that 2-nd dragons will never get retal... I don't exactly understand how this will happen, because as soon as the 1-st one dies, the 2-nd one will take the next retal.
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angelito
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posted October 05, 2005 12:28 AM |
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Greens have speed 10....on grass 11...so they wont hit your fodder when itīs 1-hex units.
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Xarfax111
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posted October 05, 2005 03:07 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
If uve to face dragons u can also reduce them with scouts simply by using their breath with tactics...just think about what 15 Greens do to 15 Greens, and this 2 times per scout
I am not exactly sure how this will work. AI will split the dragons in 7 evenly divided stacks and they will kill your fodder on round 1 without ever giving you a chance to use their retal.
Also - I liked your dragon tactics. However, you mentioned that 2-nd dragons will never get retal... I don't exactly understand how this will happen, because as soon as the 1-st one dies, the 2-nd one will take the next retal.
..well live and learn Russ. With some practise u can do it even with Black Dragons that can cross the field in one turn.
Here are some pics for u to understand. Please note that i made one stack with 2 Pikemen to get the Gold Dragon in the right place. Pics are hopefully selfexplainatory:
Xarfax1
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lkru33
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posted October 05, 2005 01:04 PM |
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Wow, just when I thought I've seen everything on this forum...
Leave it to Xarfax to prove to me that I don't even know 1/2 of this games capabilities. Russ even learned something!! Muhahahahahaha!!!
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Russ
Promising
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posted October 05, 2005 04:56 PM |
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Quote:
Wow, just when I thought I've seen everything on this forum...
Leave it to Xarfax to prove to me that I don't even know 1/2 of this games capabilities. Russ even learned something!! Muhahahahahaha!!!
Hey, drop that "even", I am still a noob 
Great post, Xarfax. Getting 4 retals on a scout isn't bad. Would be nice if it worked with a non-tactics scout as well, but still nice. Come to think of it... if you included a few archers in your scout's army, you probably could even make the dragons move forward to where you want them instead of waiting, so it *might* work without tactics. But that's just speculation, as I can't test this right now.
Btw, how do you prevent the 2-nd dragon from getting the retaliation in your other tactic?
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angelito
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posted October 05, 2005 05:52 PM |
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It works without tactics aswell, but only on grass and maybe not with that much retail. Just split your 7 units in 2hex and 1hex units. The 2hex will be attacked, coz greens / golds can reach them. The 1hex fodder can "activate" the retail. If u have 1hex units with at least speed 6 (halbadiers on grass), they can walk far enough to get between 2 dragon stacks. Important here is, to have ONE stack of fodder, which has more hitpoints than the 2 units standing besides each other in spot 3/4 or 4/5, to prevent the goldies from using the 2hex attack and killing 2 units at once.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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csarmi
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posted October 10, 2005 11:17 AM |
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Well I don't really know the map so I have no idea if this is possible. But if you manage to get sacrifice, these fights will go with negligible losses.
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lkru33
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posted October 10, 2005 02:19 PM |
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Quote:
Well I don't really know the map so I have no idea if this is possible. But if you manage to get sacrifice, these fights will go with negligible losses.
It doesn't necessarily have to be the Extreme template... any battle of this magnitude on any template or map is fair game.
Sacrifice would help, but typically (at least in my case) I don't look for Wisdom as a skill for my hero or build my mage guild up to lvl. 5. If I were to get Sacrifice, it would be from a fire tomb and that type of artifact is usually guarded by the type of monster stack I am describing.
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Daystar
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posted October 10, 2005 11:16 PM |
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Violence is not the answer. geting some other team to kill the dragons or whatever and then killing their weakened hero is the answer.
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tigris
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posted October 14, 2005 04:44 PM |
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i think there isn't a better template to describe some hardcore battles than extreme II.On this template the tough battles begin day 1 with fighting for exemple some lots demonst defend a roc dwell, then you have the guards to your second area, where your mines are located and then...then there are "the big bad battles" as midnight himself described them.Having castle and exp slow makes the template much more easier to play and the map much more easier to clean.But playing stronghold for exemple and having only a speed 13 unit in your army can make the battles much tougher(especially those vs lvl 7 units). I learned a good trick from Angelito lately and he described it earlier.
As i am not so skilled to come up with a spectacular tactic to make the monster suicide, i will stick to the basics.Most of the players, even some with much online experience tend to make one big mistake:they bring too much army when fighting a big fights.take for exemple a month 2 week 1 day 1 fight with stronghold versus a throng of dread knights.Should one bring his whole army or this fight can be done with less(army and casualities in the end).Bringing all the units in the castle automaticaly means you have no fodder to take retaliation with, so instead of losing one goblin you will prolly lose 50 in one attack.3 of those means no more goblins, then soon you'll be starting to take retaliation with ogres or even birds.This may mean a big upset.Instead you could do this two separate ways.Eigher take all your ancients,birds and wolves and 5 stacks of fodders, or your ancients and both shooters(this depends on the map setup wells,casualities and so on).Let's say you are up against 140 dreads knights.If you will bring all your army along, they will prolly be splitt into 5 or 6 stacks:5 stcks of 28 or 6 stacks of 23-24.But if you bring less army, they will be surely split on 7 stacks of 20.the difference between 28 and 20 may seem small at a first glance, but don't forget that 8 dreads mean 960 more hp, that's 960 more damage needed to kill the stack.facing a retal from 26 or 27 dread knights may mean all your 150 goblins may be gone in one move.What will you take retaliation with the next rounds??Instead, taking but 4 goblins will mean that 4 slots out of 7 will be down without any other losses, cos the birds, wolves and ancients will decimate or completely destroy the stacks.Now you are left with 9 ancients(minimum),27 t-birds(minimum) and with about 130-150 wolves(miniumum) against 60 dread knights.On extreme odds are you will have high level dwells so you'll prolly have more army than i mentioned above.Now it's the time to cast exp stone skin and start to take retliation with ancients.With some decent stats(in the 20's), the remaining dreads will do max 200 damage from retaliation(that's with double damage) but most likely they won't do more than 100.Cure may do the difference.Also if you have first aid, you might want to take retaliation with ancients first, while your first aid tent is still alive.This way you get free cure on your ancients and keep the fodders alive to take the retal once your first aid tent is distroyed, thus making the ancients vulnerable.So in the end a fight like that can end with but 4 goblins lost nd with a whole bunch to win.The trikier fights are against the high sped lvl 7 units.Given the richness of the treasure area on extreme, one fight against the map must make use of the magical side(by that i mean you must have at least adv wisdom to be able to cast spells like clone, berserk or ressurection, depending on the magic school(s) you are expert in.)Another mistake people make is using damage spells like implosion instead of a more rafined spell like clone for instance.An 1200 implo will help, but why not double your 2.8-3.6 kilo damage dealt by your ancients instead?
IMHO the toughest fights are against the big throngs/horde dragons cos they can't be blinded/slowed.Being faced against 120 blackis with an army consisting of 11 ancients or so may be disastrous.
As rychen said earlier, the key of succes is making full use of the necro troops found in pan boxes over the sand.Using those means less casualities amongst your own troops and more chances to survive lol
From my little experience i can say that when facing 120 red dragons for instance and if you don't have 23613576 points of mana and res you will lose army.There is no way you can prevent that but you can minimize the loses by use of war machines or sumoned elementals as easy targets for the big stacks.
Sumoned stacks may look more apealing to the monsters, because they would rather attack a weak stack, instead of being faced with a bitter retaliation.Also i have noticed that a unit that has beneficial spells casted on it(such as prayer or even stone skin) is less seen as a potential target than a unit without that.(this doesn't mean that instead of attacking your shielded wolf raiders, the monsters would rather attack your ancients, but this can help in some situations aswell).
On a sidenote, not panicking and not losing your cool can help alot.One wrong move like moving your powerstack next to it's target instead of attacking it or miscalculating the distace a certain stack can reach may swich the outcome of a battle from fodder casualities to defeat in some cases.So no matter how nervous or emotioned you are, never lose your focus, look twice and move once, plan ahead, both your own moves and the positions you would like the wandaring stacks to be the next turn.(one exemple here:after waiting with all your units, taking retaliation with a fodder and then following with all your powerstacks round 1, round 2 you might be forced to retreat your powerstacks cos you want to wait with them, take retal with another fodder and then follow the same procedure again.But as you are in range of 1 or more enemy stack you can't afford to wait on that spot.So you need to retreat, but some people forget that this retreat isn't only meant to keep you away of the monsters that round, but it must be a strategical retreat that will enable you to be able to wait with your powerstacks the following round.If you fail to do that you will end up running away from the big stacks forever till eventually you will be in the position to wait, take the retal and then follow).This is easier said than done in most cases cos your hasted units must move more than double than the slowed monsters on the battlemap.
Another thing i can think of is making full use of the battlefield.Whereas sometimes the battlefield is pretty clen, without many obstacles, sometimes it may be full of them.This is a double edged sword.You may be finding yourself in the position of not being able to move a 2 hex unit cos you blocked it before with another unit.On the other hand you can prevent 2 hex(non flyers) attackers from reaching your powerstacks by placing it in a narrow area(2-3 hexes wide) and placing a fodder in the path of the enemy, thus not allowing it to target your big stack.
Hope you guys had the patience to read all this and although most of it it's well-known i hope the newcommers in online games can learn something out of that.
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