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| Thread: Attack, Defence, Power and Knowledge! will they be missed? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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BlueGreen
Adventuring Hero
Master Of Swords
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posted September 06, 2001 04:40 PM |
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Attack, Defence, Power and Knowledge! will they be missed?
From what I have heard Attack, Defence, Power and Knowledge wont be part of a hero's Stats in HOMM IV. I dont know about you guys but I will truly miss having these stats around. They have been present in all three games and should be present in this one! 
I always found lots of fun in raising hero's Attack, Defence, Power And Knowledge. And having them still present in the game would still go well with the currently being devised system.
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted September 06, 2001 05:45 PM |
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There will still be all four attributes but they will live on in a different manner. Instead of everyone having the same 4 primary skills you get to choose 5 of 9 possible primary skills. Because of heroes fighting it looks like they broke up attack and defence into offence and defence in the tactics skill(for your creatures) and combat and toughness under the combat skill(for your hero). Each magic school has a different flavored kind of wisdom and power. I really like this new set up because I believe that the heroes will be very unique and playable.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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UnkaHaakon
Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
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posted September 06, 2001 06:23 PM |
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Go to respectfully disagree with you here, BlueGreen.
Part of the reason I'm excited about Heroes 4 is that it's NOT just a retread of the last 3 versions. The old system had pretty much gone as far as it could.
Attack and Defense were only useful as creature modifiers. Since the role of heroes as a stack of creature modifiers with a portrait is over, there's really no need for these. Especially given that creatures don't even seem to have Att/Def values any more.
Power and Knowledge will still be there in a way, as each school of magic seems to have a subskill that sets the power of the spells and the number of spell points you have. However, the days of multi thousand point "Implosions' seem to be behind us. This means a better balance between Might and Magic.
It's a big change, but change is not necessarily bad.
PS: You're not by any chance related to Uncle Red are you? 
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Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted September 06, 2001 06:50 PM |
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I'm really very happy to see attack and defence go away for creatures. Those stats really didn't accomplish anything that couldn't have been done by just giving them higher or lower damage or hps. All they did was make comparing 2 creatures alot more complicated.
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Gimmickless
Promising
Known Hero
Cannon Maker
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posted September 06, 2001 08:30 PM |
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Not quite, Niteshade...
After all, you wouldn't want gnolls doing full damage aginst your Titan, now would you? The power/defense was set up probably to accentuate the gulf between level creatures. It probably could have been done better, but that was what we had to deal with.
I for one am intrigued by this new setup and will certainly be buying Heroes4 when it comes out. (and normally I *never* buy new video games...or CDs for that matter...)
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Lyricist's Lounge Champion Wanna test your skills?
Johnny The Ball:... too long to display...
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted September 06, 2001 10:10 PM |
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actually your wrong about that......
"After all, you wouldn't want gnolls doing full damage aginst your Titan, now would you?"
Actually, yes I would like the gnolls to do full damage against my titan. It would have been much simpler if instead of having the gnolls do 2-4 damage, but that damage was reduced by various amounts against most creatures, they just did 2-3 damage instead to all creatures.
"The power/defense was set up probably to accentuate the gulf between level creatures."
Yeah but that could have been done just as easily, and much more logicaly by just giving the creatures higher or lower hps and damage. Instead of giving the archangel such a high attack value that it does +50% damage, you could just increase the base damage by +50%. It accomplishes the same thing and involves much less math. Players might actually be able to figure out which creature would win in a fight without scrap paper, a pencil, and a calculator.
Luckily this is the way it's all going to be done in H4.
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StormWarning
Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
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posted September 06, 2001 10:39 PM |
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I think creatures should still have attack and defense, because it makes sense that some creatures are more vulnerable to any given attack. Defending against a Champion's lance should be easier for some creatures than others, for example. But I don't think I'll miss the heroes' skills, since Attack and Defense are back (in limited form) as Offense/Combat and Defense/Toughness. Spell power is kind of limited as well, but knowledge remains both in each school's skill and in the fact that magic-users probably get more spell points each time they level up. With the days of Implosion wiping out a legion of Troglodytes being gone, heroes actually have a chance of surviving past the first round.
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The calm before the storm is about to end.
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted September 06, 2001 10:44 PM |
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Well attack and defence didn't make defending against the champions lance easier for some then others. It had a static attack value against every creature. So I don't see how that would help things at all.
On the other hand, what H4 is doing by giving a lance first strike, but allowing some units to cancel it does make it easier for some to defend against it then others.
But still nobody has come up with any reason why attack and defence in creatures are useful for anything other then overcomplicating creature combat calculations.
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StormWarning
Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
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posted September 06, 2001 10:50 PM |
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Quote:
Well attack and defence didn't make defending against the champions lance easier for some then others. It had a static attack value against every creature. So I don't see how that would help things at all.
Actually, that's exactly what it did. Not counting the charge bonus, the Champion (attack 16) does 20-25 base damage. To a Harpy Hag (defense 6), that goes up 50% to 30-37 - the Harpy Hag just can't mount a good defense. But against a Devil (defense 21), that drops 10% to 18-22 because the Devil can defend itself better. It would be neat to see a system where some creature types (ranged, cavalry, infantry, magic-user, flying, etc.) gets a bonus against certain types of creatures and a penalty against others - this way you still wind up with the effect of some creatures being better able to defend but the calculations are a little less complex (not that they're that tough to begin with  ).
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The calm before the storm is about to end.
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted September 06, 2001 11:05 PM |
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Your missing the point......
"Actually, that's exactly what it did. Not counting the charge bonus, the Champion (attack 16) does 20-25 base damage. To a Harpy Hag (defense 6), that goes up 50% to 30-37 - the Harpy Hag just can't mount a good defense. But against a Devil (defense 21), that drops 10% to 18-22 because the Devil can defend itself better."
My point is that this could be acomplished just as easily using damage and hit points. Hit points represent defence just as well as the defence value does. But giving some creatures higher damage values, and some higher hit point values, you accomplish the same thing as attack and defence.
For example.....
The highest damage a champion can do is 80% of 20-25=about 36-42. So we make that the damage value for the champion.
Any creature who would normaly take less damage from this we just give more hit points. So the devil would normaly take only half of 36-42, so we give him double his normal hit points. Voila, we've accomplished everything the attack and defence system does without using attack and defence.
It may be worth noting that this is probably why creatures in H4 have so much higher HP and damage values, it's because of the loss of attack/defence stats. They aren't necesarily that much more powerful then the original creature.
So once again I restate my point.....there is absolutely nothing that attack and defence values are good for that damage and hps can't do just as well. The only real use of creature attack and defence have in H3 (aside from making calculations harder) is to give the behemoth's special ability something to do.
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Coldfyrius
Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
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posted September 07, 2001 01:31 AM |
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Attack and Deense values on creaures always seemed like a waste of time to me. I'm glad to see them gone. The new 9-skill system will take a little getting used to, but that's to be expected. Warlocks not having Centaurs, Gargoyles, Griffins, or Hydras in their towns in HOMM3 took a little getting used to, too.
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"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen
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LordPaul
Promising
Famous Hero
Crazy Bat Guy.
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posted September 07, 2001 01:39 AM |
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Thank you Coldfyrius.
Attack and Defence were just ther to acentuate the gulf between levels. But now the HP and Damage between levels is bigger, so it is basically the same.
Tactics can now increase attack or defence by 100%/50% respectively (at Grandmaster). So there will still be that bonus for having a general in battle. You just have to be in the range, now.
This does raise a question, though:
What will weapon and armor artifacts do? Will they only help the Hero or will some help the troops, too?
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 07, 2001 04:50 AM |
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Maybe weapon artifacts would increase your damage level
while armor artifacts may have hitpoints themselves and hence enhance your hitpoint.
Just guess.
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Choose what you love
and love what you choose.
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BlueGreen
Adventuring Hero
Master Of Swords
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posted September 07, 2001 06:09 AM |
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Oh well I Guess I;ll have to wait and find out! I do like the sound of the new system with the Master and Grandmaster levels and things.
Hmmm... even the creatures dont have attack and defence now. oh well :/ . I suppose it will be interesting to see how all this will work
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted September 07, 2001 09:56 AM |
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Trust me, before long you will wonder why the creatures had them in the first place. The only thin that attack and defence acomplished in H3 that couldn't be acomplished with regular hp and damage increases was....
1) It made behemoths more effective against big creatures
2) It made spells more deadly vs. big creatures.
The behemoth thing was probably intentional but I doubt the spell thing was. I guess behemoths will have to get a new special ability in H4.
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Gabriel
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 07, 2001 10:33 AM |
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to be or not to be
no, i will don't miss them...not at all
first, it is too easy to turn your pikeman into a perfect killer with the Angelic Alliance
second, it is not realistic a hero with a some peace of metal to affect all the army (where is the training in the old barraks?)
third, i like much more the great gap in hp between the first and the last army
AND you have all the battle skills to change the damage (offence) and the life (defence; it is equal if you have 130hp or 100hp with 30% defence)
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NKW
Hired Hero
Tatalian Guard of Honor
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posted September 07, 2001 10:51 AM |
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I'll miss attack and defense a lot, not only do they add a lot more 'finesse' to the game (increasing damage and hps is not the same for a lot things in the game), they also represent the skill of certain troops in combat (archangels don't have more hit points than chaoshydras, they simply have more skill in denfeding themselves).
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"What actually transpires beneath the veil of an event horizon?
Decent people shouldn't think too much about that."
--Provost Zaharov, Adress to the Faculty
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted September 07, 2001 05:51 PM |
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NKW,
You say that increasing damage and hp is not the same thing for alot of the game, but you don't give any examples. Please give some examples, and we will see if you are correct.
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StormWarning
Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
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posted September 07, 2001 10:51 PM |
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You want an example, niteshade, here you go
How much do you adjust the HP and damage values? Not all creatures would be affected by as much. Let's continue my example from above. The Champion, because its attack is 5 less than the Devil's defense, deals 10% less damage. So you decide to give the Devil 11% more hit points (178 instead of 160), reducing the effective damage by 10%. But look at the Stone Gargoyle. Its attack is 15 less than the Devil's defense, so it should deal 30% less damage (dropping it to 1.4-2.1 instead of 2-3). But just giving the Devil 11% extra hit points instead improves the Gargoyles' damage-dealing ability by 29% (from 1.4-2.1 to effectively 1.8-2.7). So which creature do you use to base the HP and damage adjustments on? No matter which one you do, you cannot get the same effect as using attack and defense values.
[edit to fix a little bit of the math, too much school in the last week ]
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The calm before the storm is about to end.
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted September 07, 2001 11:06 PM |
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It looks like as long as creatures are in the command radius of the hero the will still have attack and defence bonuses called offence and defence assuming you have the tactics primary skill(and who's not going to have this skill?). The skills have not gone away they have changed into battlefeild tactical skills. Some creatures that don't need the bonus can go far afeild of the hero but if the creatures need bonuses to be more effective you need to bring your hero closer into combat thus increasing his danger.
"The choices we make now will alter the future." - Marty McFly
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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