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| Thread: Dedicated to 9/11 victims... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted May 09, 2006 11:37 PM |
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Interesting site. I would like to see something related to this movie in there.
Btw, you haven't answered my question in the post above.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted May 09, 2006 11:56 PM |
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Quote:
Wars usually start with fairy tales:
Adolf Hitler 01/11/39:
„Polen hat heute Nacht auf unserem eigenen Territorium auch mit bereits regulären Soldaten geschossen! Seit 5 Uhr 45 wird jetzt zurückgeschossen, und ab jetzt wird Bombe mit Bombe vergolten!!"
If u dont have a reason, find one!
...oh, i actually forgot to translate it:
Adolf Hitler 01/11/39:
"Poland shot last Night on our territory with regular troups! Since 5.45 we shoot back, und up to now we will revenge every bomb with a bomb".
(Well looks like the German peeps those days also only wanted to /had to believe what their Führer said. With little thinking they would know that a country with cavlary and some WWI planes really wont attack one of the biggest armies these days.)
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 09, 2006 11:58 PM |
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Quote:
Have you considered looking at things that ARE accurate? Most of what he says is easily verifiable. It is extremely easy to download all the footage off the Internet, for example. Pretty much everything besides what he says about Osama can be verified.
The problem with that philosophy is best summed up by the old adage: one bad apple spoils the whole barrel. Which means that if there are a handful of easily-identifiable inaccuracies, then effectively everything becomes suspect. It's like if you were reading a basic textbook about something about which you have some rudimentary knowledge and you found in the first chapter that there were several things that were blatantly incorrect. Whether or not those innaccuracies are due to sloppiness, laziness, or overt fraud, it doesn't matter: the entire book nevertheless becomes untrustworthy. You can't say, "well, you should still read the book because, despite the fact that it is wrong or fraudulent in half a dozen places, there are a half dozen places where they MIGHT be right." So what? The fact that there are things that are wrong means that the source of information cannot be universally trusted, and you are better off looking elsewhere for answers.
Not to mention that the internet is full of bad information. It's amazing what sources of information people will accept on faith alone just because some random person spits it out on the net.
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted May 10, 2006 12:04 AM |
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Ok, then why don't you apply this adage to the official explanation of what happened?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 10, 2006 12:13 AM |
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Quote:
Ok, then why don't you apply this adage to the official explanation of what happened?
I never said that "official explanation" was right. You are putting words in my mouth. I simply said that your video was completely unreliable. Those two facts are not mutually exclusive.
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Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted May 10, 2006 12:25 AM |
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Quote:
Ok, then why don't you apply this adage to the official explanation of what happened?
Very good question, which to me accurately summarizes the point you're trying to make with this post.
A video found on the internet doesn't provide factual evidence, and it's easy to sidetrack the discussion zooming in on details or so called facts mentioned in it, and proving them wrong.
In my humble opinion though, any rationally thinking human being who is capable of processing factual data in an objective way should be seriously unsatisfied by the official explanation of what happened at 9/11.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted May 10, 2006 12:40 AM |
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Lets just watch one point and share our opinions:
When i saw the buildings collapsing i had the feeling that it really doesnt "look natural". Of course the whole scene look unbelievable anyway, so of course i didnot waste another thought about how it look like.
But after years, i must say it still "look unnatural". I mean there must be tons of static calculations to make a building collapsing this way. If the professional fail in their calculations a building falls longside.
Now those two building have holes in it. Normally the upper part should tend to fall this way, like done with an axe and a tree. Maybe you are "lucky" and one building collapse this way, BUT both of them?
The planes crushed into the buildings at a very high point. If it would be below the middle it may have these effect. Also "how fast" the building come down looks unreal..no resistance parts on the way down?.
Any opinions?
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted May 10, 2006 02:24 AM |
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Don't Trust
 " Can't believe in nothing. Insane to trust in anything. So I don't trust in noone, but myself ! "
<< Don't Trust >> by Kreator
Bin, this is actually a streaming video, though it might still be a pain in the *** at half a byte per hour. Toss that stinking dialup already, foo ! This isn't the bleeding stone age anymore. 
My personnal policy here is just about the same as the one I've used for years now about the whole God Conspiracy.
Billions of blinds can bloody well enjoy their blissful ignorance and praise their brainwashers for it all they want. As long as they keep their roleplay fetish at home, and keep themselves from forcing me into any of their senseless categories.
Just because most of the world pretends it's okay for adults to keep believing in Santa Klaus, as long as they change his name... And just because I can see they are brainwashed, doesn't allow them to call me a " disbeliever ", cause I don't and won't take any part in their fairy / horror tale, not even as the racist who discriminates liars and overt brainwashing.
Same here. You're free to believe a goddamn Jumbo Jet noone ever seen completely disappeared to a paralell dimension through a hole on the wall a tenth of its size, if you please. Or that two skycrappers falled flat on their foundations in ten seconds because the upper levels were on fire. Or that one broke low-life wanker completely out of his mind singlehandedly shot JFK with that magic bullet of his, for that matter !
I'll stay true to genuine logic and politely explain you why and how this is all technically hilarious.
But it won't make us << two sides >>.
That kind of logic would make the racists the number one most persecuted community of all time and space, imho. 
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LM   
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 10, 2006 02:41 AM |
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Quote:
Same here. You're free to believe a goddamn Jumbo Jet noone ever seen completely disappeared to a paralell dimension through a hole on the wall a tenth of its size, if you please. Or that two skycrappers falled flat on their foundations in ten seconds because the upper levels were on fire. Or that one broke low-life wanker completely out of his mind singlehandedly shot JFK with that magic bullet of his, for that matter !
read this http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=6&c=y
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted May 10, 2006 03:01 AM |
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Amateurs trying to understand complex science using "common sense" (read starting with a conclusion and then looking for facts to support it whilst ignoring contradictory facts) are not my idea of good sources of information. You might as well post what Ernst Zundel says about the holocaust. And like Zundel I don't imagine that the author of this video has taken the time to respond to the answers given on websites like Popular Mechanics.
The truth may well lie some way from the claims of the current administration but you won't find it through flawed investigation.
(co=incidentally before you get all irked that I'm calling you a holocaust denier I'm not. I'm merely saying that there is similarities in the arguments being put forward by the two theories)
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted May 10, 2006 04:27 AM |
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Show, don't Tell !
Quote:
read this http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=6&c=y
Done. Seen all those pics several times before (most are present on the video you look so down upon).
Always a good laugh though, thanks.
Doesn't it strike ur curiosity at all that we have solid live action footage of the whole WTC scene, under so many different angles... Why the best << evidence >> we ever had that there ever was an airplane near the Pentagone that day is this kind of Roswell-like hilarious static shots, provided by the authorities ?! 
Let's reason the other way round. Okay, let's assume there really WAS a Boeing that crashed on the Pentagone that day.
Morning of a business day, there were basically an army of tourists videotaping the WTC from many different povs at around the same time. Most of them kept filming the catastrophy pretty steadily, instead of falling into a state of shock or running for their lives. That's why we have so much footage of the first attack (by the time the second occured TV was already there, so it's not surprising at all, but I for one am very surprised that the first attack was so well filmed from the very start).
BUT
The bleeding PENTAGONE is attacked in a similar fashion only hours later and NO ONE videotaped even a glimpse of it ?
Even the bloody US authorities can't come up with better than a still pic of a tiny piece of shiny new plane armor on their LAWN ?! 
Be serious just a second : ANYTHING happening this near the Pentagone has been routinely filmed by the main US agencies themselves. Or do you reckon a country that can afford such exhaustive spying tools as Carnivore and bush knows what else doesn't have any kind of surveillance for their own center of power ?
So, still following the hypothesis that there really was a plane crashing on the Pentagone. With ALL the bloody polemic about that fact in the recent years. Why the * * * * don't they make at least SOME of the original footage public ?
Quote:
AFTERMATH: Wreckage from Flight 77 on the Pentagon’s lawn--proof that a passenger plane, not a missile, hit the building.
A picture is worth a thousand words. The particular thousand this picture tells me starts like this :
" You beaches want it BIG, huh ? Right, no lube for ya, then, I take it ! hahaha ! Bend over already, **** !
Daddy W. has a Biiig one for ya ! Moo hoo ha ha ! [...]"
But the beauty of art (and humor, even dead black ) is that it's subject to so many different interpretations. Quote:
(co=incidentally before you get all irked that I'm calling you a holocaust denier I'm not. I'm merely saying that there is similarities in the arguments being put forward by the two theories)
No worries, man, I'm definitely not that type of jew (if you care I'm the type that is called jewish by all except actual jews, to whom I'm nothing jewish since my mom isn't, but that's another story).
Anyways, I couldn't possibly recommend you highly enough to beware of similarities, escpecially when they're more or less disguised as arguments. If you're intellectually honest enough to admit it, you'll agree that it's possible (and even easy) to find at least some similarities between ANY two things.
That's basically as relevant to me in a serious conversation as :
<< Look, this guy can't spell. If he has this common flaw, how could you possibly guarantee that what he has to say isn't as bad as his spelling ? >> (If this rings any recent bells )
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LM
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted May 10, 2006 09:36 AM |
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On the wreckage photo I believe the link also says:
Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"
Pictures may say a thousand words but I'll rely on an expert eye witness who was there thanks. I presume that the author of the video has a reason to discount the above statement? Perhaps he believes that Kilsheimer is incompetent or just plain lying?
And why would ordinary people be videoing the pentagon? It's not like it's a major tourist trap (at least not in comparison to NYC) really is it? Plus have you ever tried to photograph/video a fast low flying plane that you're not expecting? I can assure you it's not that easy to do so on ones you are expecting. (or maybe I'm just a poor cameraman!) I can appreciate that additional footage from governmental sources would be useful but that's hardly conclusive. Governments are secretive about anything and everything, especially if it involves something like the intelligence community.
Non-connected similarities are irrelevant but mine had a connection in the method the two use. Both seem to use a process of making a conclusion and then seeking sources to prove that conclusion whilst dismissing sources that contradict the conclusion. That's not irrelevant in the slightest, the method someone uses to make their points are central to whether they are a worthwile author or not. The video includes at the start what seems to me to be some irrelevant information. The video implies for example that there is somethng inherently suspect about the way that pre 9/11 documents about terrorism had the Twin Towers with a target on them. I'd have to say that the probable reason why the athor only implies suspicion is because they know damn well that to try and make a point using such a basis would be preposterous. If you were going to draw up a list of likely terrorist targets in the USA then the towers would be right at the top - it had already been a target in 1993 after all. Perhaps they're saying that the government should have predicted the attacks but to me, by having it in the video without explaining what point they are making doesn't bode well for the remaining arguments IMO.
Co-incidentally I haven't had the time to watch the entire video yet, does it ever reveal the sources for each part of it's information?
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 10, 2006 03:16 PM |
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Private_Hudson,
I'm glad you're still around. I had wondered for some time if you had left Heroes Community for good. Good to read you again. I enjoy reading your interpretations.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2006 06:15 PM |
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As i recall you are not allowed to film around the pentagon, so that explains why noone filmed it, besides my impression from my one visit to the states was that there are 10 times the turists in New York compared to Washington.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted May 10, 2006 06:40 PM |
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Consis-tent
You know what I think about you, Con. And I pretty much figured out what you think about me by now. You already done that pitiful trick a million times before. Cut your snobish crap. You have nothing valid to say about the debate at hands, fine. You hate my guts, swell. Say it out loud clearly like an actual MAN would.
Use HCM to let whoever disagrees with me know that you worship them. Or post something relevant for a change. Your fake fanboy spam was, is and will always be out of place in serious debates.
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LM
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted May 10, 2006 06:50 PM |
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Hudson and Maretti, you both missed my point, it seems. For sure, it was much more likely that a bunch of tourists armed with camescopes were around the twin towers than around the pentagon. I should know, two of my best friends visited there two days before 911 and filmed it like crazy.
The Pentagon is filmed 24/7 by the agencies themselves. I'm not suggesting there should have been tourists filming it. Furthermore, there were several surrounding buildings equipped with surveillance cams that filmed the whole scene. But those were rated top secret. WHY ?
Hudson, if you didn't bother to watch the entire video, there's no point argueing further with me about it. Or asking me wether or not it contained relevant and verifiable facts. If it wasn't the case, I wouldn't have recommended watching it in the first place.
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LM
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Wiseman
Known Hero
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posted May 10, 2006 07:11 PM |
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Quote:
I'm glad you're still around. I had wondered for some time if you had left Heroes Community for good. Good to read you again. I enjoy reading your interpretations.
I was just going to say the samoe thing. BTW what`s the Legend Maker`s issue with you Consis?
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Truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted May 10, 2006 08:02 PM |
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Calm yourself down, I said I hadn't the time to watch the entire video yet. I didn't say I wasn't going to bother watching the remainder. I was giving my first impressions on the video based on what I had seen so far.
I happen to be very busy at the moment as I'm preparing for a 3 week holiday to the states which begins in just over a week. I also happen to have only started watching the video at around midnight last night. I presume I will be forgiven for putting a decent nights sleep and keeping my job ahead of the latest conspiracy theory.
I would add however that if you were not making a point about tourists filming the attack then there is no reason for you to add the following as it obviously relates to that point.
Morning of a business day, there were basically an army of tourists videotaping the WTC from many different povs at around the same time. Most of them kept filming the catastrophy pretty steadily, instead of falling into a state of shock or running for their lives. That's why we have so much footage of the first attack (by the time the second occured TV was already there, so it's not surprising at all, but I for one am very surprised that the first attack was so well filmed from the very start).
BUT
The bleeding PENTAGONE is attacked in a similar fashion only hours later and NO ONE videotaped even a glimpse of it ?
I also addressed your point on why offical/nearby footage has not been released in my last post. I am of course making an assumption in my last reply but that is only what you are doing (i.e. that no release implies something to hide).
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 10, 2006 08:45 PM |
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Edited by Consis at 20:46, 10 May 2006.
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Well . . .
Wiseman, I think it's because I've never responded to any of his posts. Perish the thought . . .
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 10, 2006 09:53 PM |
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Edited by Shiva at 21:55, 10 May 2006.
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Russ, I decline to answer any questions like that
because I simply can't say for sure one way or the
other that it is true. What I know is this:
Just because someone says something is true and posts
it on the web means nothing as to if it actually is
the truth or not.
Propaganda works both ways..To state that in 1962, some
general wanted to provoke a war, that they have the
ability to fly a plane remotely, and there are a bunch
of governmental documents with a cross-hair on the trade
center, is not proof that anybody did anything. It is a
chain of logic, however, that forces people into a
conclusion for which there is no proof.
To ask: "Who benefits?" as many of these theorists do is
slightly absurd, as the ones who have benefited the most
are conspiracy theorists themselves, who have been given
enough fodder to feed their imaginations for the next
century.
All I can conclude for sure is that I saw the planes on
tv fly into those buildings, and then they collapsed.
There is no proof they were blown up. There is no
doubt in my mind, however, that it was the most horrific, surreal
thing I have ever seen. If there are people who did this
to their own country, I can also conclude they are horribly
inept, and have ballsed-up the war in Iraq, pushing the
world closer to WWlll.
To say 5 Israeli's were dancing, therefore Israel did it is
also a stretch. Thousands of Palestinians danced, not to mention
unknown numbers of others. People have their reasons for
dancing,usually because they are celebrating. And people
can celebrate the same event for different reasons: The
Israeli's because they know the US will step into the
Middle East in a big way, the Palestinians because
they genuinely hate the Americans. That doesn't
mean anything, except they are sick, to celebrate such
death and destruction.
Life is an illusion, and both sides of the media play on
that heavily, slanting things so one will think the way
they want you to. Observing with out concluding is hard,
but oh,so neccessary if one is truly to think for
themself.
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