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| Thread: Avenger: Is it worth it? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 04, 2006 03:14 AM |
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And Avenger is one of the better skills imho, as it has many good things about it that will help you to win.
that was... erm... really... convincing, yeah. =)
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Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
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posted June 04, 2006 03:28 AM |
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your versing haven
its week of the paladins, or caviliers
opponent resigns
Yeah, getting more paladins in dwelling surely suck.
Though, I might be wrong, as not sure if it's here as it was in H3. Week of-->+5 (or some other number) in your dwelling. In town one, that is.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted June 04, 2006 04:32 AM |
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Training: Unique to Haven heroes. This skill allows heroes to train their troops, and upgrade them into higher tier ones. (e.g. Peasants > Marksman) In addition it boosts the damage dealt by retaliation of the hero's creatures. The higher the level, the more the damage of retaliation. A hero can use training only in a Haven town with Training Ground, and can only train Haven creatures.
* Benediction: A special combat ability. Casting it in combat temporarily raises morale, initiative, attack and defence of all friendly creatures.
* Expert Trainer: Reduce the cost of training by 10%.
* Retaliation Strike: A special combat ability that allows the hero to protect a friendly creature. When the targeted creature get attacked by an enemy, the hero will inflict damage to the attackers, regardless of the target can retaliate or not.
Thats the Training for Haven, and in my opinion I think that Avenger is better than Haven Training unique Racial Skill.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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rpgguy
Adventuring Hero
Scholar
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posted June 04, 2006 07:52 AM |
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ok william since you "insisted" i will post my message here too:
lets devide this into 2:
the avenger pure skill and the abilities you get from avenger:
the avenger pure skill is the only way to let your creatures deal *4 or even higher damage to enemy creatures. (just mix it with luck)
sure you have to pick other skills but a typical ranger that rocks will probably take:
luck - a must have - with elven luck (bonus 125%)
war machines - works perfectly with imbue ballista - triple shot to make things even sweeter.
destructive magic - (one of the main magic schools for rangers - light is the other one) - destruction works wonders with imbue abilities.
after fighting an enemy hero your ranger should know exactly what his up against and what creature he "hates" so go back to your town and choose your favorite enemeis.
sometimes - like in the ranger campaign - you already know youll be facing undead and after fighting the garrisons you can choose favorite enemies easily.
i usualy pick the towns archers and their 7th level creature - for example - arch-liches , skeleton archers and shadow dragons.
in random maps dont forget to "pay" a visit to your local theives guild - it will help you see your opponents best creatures and that will be a good place to start picking favorite enemeis.
* and dont forget to change your favoured enemy list as needed! (you can do it wheneven you visit your town with the right building)
the damage and chance for a critical hit upon favored creatures can be increased by your heroes skills and your town buildings.
eventualy (with luck in mind) you can deal 300% damage bonus upon your most hated foes. (play the ranger campaign youll see - especialy when 2 of your heroes ALWAYS have luck rolls).
now lets look at the abilities:
deadeye shot- this is great to have becuase its increases the damage your hero deals in general especialy to favoured enemies
rain of arrows - now you can attack all your favourite enemies at once! you can choose to do it as a regular attack and hit multiple favourite enemies or combine it with imbue shot for even greater carnage. which brings me to:
imbue arrow- one of my favourites - this skill is great! :
imbue your bow with one of your destruction magic and watch the carnage! if you got imbue ballista and tripleshot youll be dealing insane amount of damage!!! at the start of the battle imbue your bow with your favorite spell, (implosion for damage,metoer shower for mob control or lighting bolt with master of storm to keep the enemy units from doing ANYTHING) after your first imbuing you and your ballista can start shooting spells at the warlock's army and show him who the real destruction master is... while he cast 1 misely destruction spell, your rain of arrows cast it twice or even 3 times and your ballista another 3 times - thats 6 spells in 1 round!!!
as you can see the avenger "pure" skill greatly enhace your units while the abilities greatly enhances your magic.
so yes avenger is worth it!
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Week Of The Rabbit
Triple Growth For All Creatures
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Exiled
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 04, 2006 03:53 PM |
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Well retaliation strike is kind of useless, while imbue arrow is quite good. But overall I think training is better then Fav enemies. Even if you play 1v1 there is no guarantee that you will find high lvl neutrals of the enemy's 4,5,6 or 7th unit. And in Heroes the game is generally decided in a single battle so there so no flee&learn tactic. Of course, you can always buy a single Black Dragon from somewhere and go Armaggedon
PS: Yesterday we played 3 ppl hot seat+comps in Warlords. The Ranger now has 2 of my units as fav due to the damn AI conntrolling dungeon. Result of the battle commin in 2 days 
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted June 11, 2006 02:08 AM |
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Well you got a good point there Exiled, couldnt say it better myslef, and all the other replies here in this thread i couldnt say better myself
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted June 14, 2006 01:16 PM |
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Quote:
Well retaliation strike is kind of useless, while imbue arrow is quite good. But overall I think training is better then Fav enemies. Even if you play 1v1 there is no guarantee that you will find high lvl neutrals of the enemy's 4,5,6 or 7th unit. And in Heroes the game is generally decided in a single battle so there so no flee&learn tactic. Of course, you can always buy a single Black Dragon from somewhere and go Armaggedon
PS: Yesterday we played 3 ppl hot seat+comps in Warlords. The Ranger now has 2 of my units as fav due to the damn AI conntrolling dungeon. Result of the battle commin in 2 days
Avenger is good, but not great. If you surrender or retreat after a battle where you killed many of the opponents units , you are not able to choose them as favourite enemies. So you have to win the battles, or to kill neutrals before the main battle ... That makes it a little hard to use. On the other hand training is a crappy skill, the part about a more powerfull retaliation is ok, but training creatures is very costly, it is better to build a second heaven town i think ...Benediction is cool though, but it cant make the whole skill cool by itself.
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Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
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posted June 14, 2006 04:03 PM |
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Is it worth it? Hmm... Considering the fact that it really isn't a choice, I'd have to say yes, it is better than having no speciality and it is worth it. 
On a more serious note, I think Avenger is a great skill in the following conditions:
-Campaign maps
-Smaller maps
-Maps with limited number of players
The reason is because the Avenger skill is rather picky (can't think of the right word here). You have to select the exact creature (upgraded and unupgraded forms matter). Given that there are 6 towns, 7 creatures each, and 2 forms of each creature, that's 6 x 7 x 2 = 84 options. And even when you have Expert Avenger, you have a 3/84 chance of blindly running into your favorite enemy. In addition, your favorite enemies can only be changed in Sylvan towns. If you're playing a big map with very few Sylvan towns, well, you'll be stuck with whatever you chose for a very long time. So if you look at it this way, Avenger is very very limited.
However, in campaign maps, you know who your opponent is, which helps you narrow down your options to 3/14. In these cases, Avenger is extremely deathly. Now you just need to learn Imbue Arrow and maybe Triple Ballista (with Imbue Ballista) and imbue everything with spells like Meteor Shower, Implosion, or Chain Lightning. You'll slaughter anyone who crosses you.
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Plexus22
Known Hero
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posted June 14, 2006 08:32 PM |
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And even when you have Expert Avenger, you have a 3/84 chance of blindly running into your favorite enemy.
Somehow that seems a bit oversimplified. You have to take into consideration the size of the map and generally how you go about using the avenger skill. For example in general (depending on difficulty setting) mines and special buildings are guarded by the same types and levels of creatures all throughout the map...the avenger skill could be used to help capture mines easily. Also it doesn't necessarily have to be applied to a player opponent, for example it could be used to take out that large stack of, say, lvl 5 creatures blocking your way earlier in the game.
Quote:
However, in campaign maps, you know who your opponent is, which helps you narrow down your options to 3/14. In these cases, Avenger is extremely deathly.
This seems like a more likely condition under which Avenger would be used vs another player opponent. It would realy only be worth even trying to use vs a player opponent if you already knew what faction your opponent is playing. Otherwise like you said there is only a 3/84 chance that you will even select a single correct favorite creature plus the chances of using evenger successfully on your opponent are even smaller because you have to blindly encounter that creature on the map. So:
If you know what faction your opponent is playing, Avenger = very useful
If you don't know what faction your opponent is playing, Avenger = DON'T even waste your time trying to use it on your opponent
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Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
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posted June 14, 2006 08:52 PM |
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I do agree with what you're saying about the mines. They're usually guarded by level 3 and 4 units. However, imo, the only creatures that warrant the Avenger skill are Hunters, Druids, and Magi (and their respective upgrades). Most other units can be taken out by your own Hunters and Druids within the first two rounds. Besides, neutral creatures have no hero, which means they have no bonuses (Attack and Defense), making them extremely weak.
The only time that you really need the Avenger skill is against another hero. (Btw, you can check what the other players' factions are by going to your tavern.) But now the problem is, if you're playing multiple people, who's creatures do you choose? If you choose the wrong ones, then you are indeed a hero walking around with no specialty. And that's no fun.
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rpgguy
Adventuring Hero
Scholar
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posted June 15, 2006 12:24 AM |
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If you don't know what faction your opponent is playing, Avenger = DON'T even waste your time trying to use it on your opponent
if you have taken your time to read my post (yes i know its long) you would have read my suggestion of using the thieves guild in your town's traven to see the opponents faction (with best creature) which will easily be the best choice for favorite enemy.
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Week Of The Rabbit
Triple Growth For All Creatures
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted June 15, 2006 01:49 AM |
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The only time that you really need the Avenger skill is against another hero. (Btw, you can check what the other players' factions are by going to your tavern.) But now the problem is, if you're playing multiple people, who's creatures do you choose? If you choose the wrong ones, then you are indeed a hero walking around with no specialty. And that's no fun.
Meh. Avenger maybe ain't useful in those unfortunate cases, yet imbue arrow and imbue ballista is always there, no matter if you successfully select a favored opponent or no 
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Plexus22
Known Hero
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posted June 15, 2006 02:55 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
If you don't know what faction your opponent is playing, Avenger = DON'T even waste your time trying to use it on your opponent
if you have taken your time to read my post (yes i know its long) you would have read my suggestion of using the thieves guild in your town's traven to see the opponents faction (with best creature) which will easily be the best choice for favorite enemy.
I did read your entire post back a while ago, in fact I've been following this thread since it started and you are absolutely correct the thieves guild would be the place to find out who your opponents are I didn't use the thieves guild a whole lot in H3 so I often don't think about it. And when I played online my opponent often had a favorite faction that they would select before the game so not knowing their faction was not an issue most of the time.
I don't agree that selecting "best creature" is always a good choice though. Best creature could very well be lvl 7 and they may only have a couple of them which isn't much of a threat. I would always try to select the creatures that you know are going to be the biggest problem for you or cause the most casualties based on your faction, like shooters/casters and creatures that are fast with high initiatives. For example if you know they have Cerebri, or upgraded horsemen/griffins or lots of hunters/druids.
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Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
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posted June 15, 2006 05:29 AM |
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Meh. Avenger maybe ain't useful in those unfortunate cases, yet imbue arrow and imbue ballista is always there, no matter if you successfully select a favored opponent or no
Really? I thought Imbue Arrow only works in conjuction with Deadeye Shot and Rain of Arrows.  I distinctively remember imbuing some spell, shooting at some enemy creature, and then not seeing any effects of that spell...
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rpgguy
Adventuring Hero
Scholar
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posted June 15, 2006 02:17 PM |
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Edited by rpgguy at 14:41, 15 Jun 2006.
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I don't agree that selecting "best creature" is always a good choice though. Best creature could very well be lvl 7 and they may only have a couple of them which isn't much of a threat. I would always try to select the creatures that you know are going to be the biggest problem for you or cause the most casualties based on your faction, like shooters/casters and creatures that are fast with high initiatives. For example if you know they have Cerebri, or upgraded horsemen/griffins or lots of hunters/druids.
again you are mistaken my friend...
best creature is not the big strongest creature that army can produce, best creature is the computer calculation of the most powerfull creature based on AMOUNT and level and not just level...
so if the opponent has 2 emerald dragons and 400 elven hunters you can be sure that the best creature will we the hunters and not the emerald dragons...
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Really? I thought Imbue Arrow only works in conjuction with Deadeye Shot and Rain of Arrows. I distinctively remember imbuing some spell, shooting at some enemy creature, and then not seeing any effects of that spell...
you are correct imbue arrow indeed only works with deadeye shot rain of arrows and imbue ballista if you dont have any of those your imbue arrow is useless. (yeah its realy stupid if you ask me)
ofcourse once you have deadeye shot each arrow your ranger shoots is by default a deadeye shot (its a passive skill).
____________
Week Of The Rabbit
Triple Growth For All Creatures
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 15, 2006 03:55 PM |
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Another good thing is that it is not so random as it seems.From early game to midgame you are bound to have a battle with your opponent(s) so,killing specific stacks before he retreats will get you your fav enemies even if none is on the adventure map.The whole 'final battle' theory is crap anyway(many strategies to overcome or ambush an opponent before he buys all his armies) unless you can see eachother's turns(or mutually agree when the battle will be) BUT if such a battle will decide the winner by then you are bound to have at least a fav enemy stack.You don't have to use up all slots for a single faction when confronting more than one players so avenger skill should not be useless for long periods.
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Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
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posted June 15, 2006 10:19 PM |
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ofcourse once you have deadeye shot each arrow your ranger shoots is by default a deadeye shot (its a passive skill).
Wait, hold on. I thought a Ranger's arrow is only a Deadeye Shot on a favorite enemy. And what if your hero does more damage normally than a Deadeye Shot? Does it recalculate and take the higher damage?
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rpgguy
Adventuring Hero
Scholar
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posted June 15, 2006 10:39 PM |
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Edited by rpgguy at 22:42, 15 Jun 2006.
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Quote:
Quote:
ofcourse once you have deadeye shot each arrow your ranger shoots is by default a deadeye shot (its a passive skill).
Wait, hold on. I thought a Ranger's arrow is only a Deadeye Shot on a favorite enemy. And what if your hero does more damage normally than a Deadeye Shot? Does it recalculate and take the higher damage?
before deadeye shot your heroe's regular attack cause damage just like every other hero class.
once you get deadeye shot you deal more damage than other heroes (it doesnt matter what type of creature you shoot at)
so having deadeye shot is always a good thing no matter if the enemy is on or off your favorite list, but if that enemy do happens to be on your favorite list then your hero will deal double damage to that stack and it always works (unlike your creatures which have about 40%).
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Week Of The Rabbit
Triple Growth For All Creatures
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Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
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posted June 15, 2006 10:45 PM |
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Do you really do more damage? The description says you do 3 times his or her level. Even if you have a level 20 hero, that's only 60 damage. I remember my Haven hero doing about 200 damage on a normal hit.  Or maybe my memory is just rusty.
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Thanatos
Known Hero
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posted June 15, 2006 11:07 PM |
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Do you really do more damage? The description says you do 3 times his or her level. Even if you have a level 20 hero, that's only 60 damage. I remember my Haven hero doing about 200 damage on a normal hit. Or maybe my memory is just rusty.
It means 3x the damage your hero would normally do (I think ). So if your hero normally deals 200 damage it would be 600... however it doesn't work like in the description, a deadeye shot on a non-favored enemy acts just like a normal shot in terms of damage with the difference that the deadeye shot can be imbued.
Rain of Arrows also has a wrong description, it doesn't deal the 3x damage the description says it does, it deals normal damage to all favored enemies + eventually imbued spells.
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