|
| Thread: By Rainalcar: Light Magic Internals |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
|
ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
|
posted June 14, 2006 02:43 PM |
|
|
By Rainalcar: Light Magic Internals
Note by ThE_HyDrA: This post has in fact been written entirely by Rainalcar, but he is unable to create a new thread, so I've made this one for him.
I will try to to show how effective the light magic spell divine strength (DS) really is by comparing it with an another spell of the same school, righteous might (RM). I consider both spells to be cast on expert profficency. I will test it by using the upgraded inferno lignup, likely the town that has the most use of the DS spell.
So, how does DS raise the damage of individual units? That can be seen below:
the first number is the average damage of the unit (i.e. familiar 2-3, avg. 2,5), and the second is the damage done with expert DS. I will test each unit indivudualy with DS and with RS, and test the
damage done to units of the corrensponding level and of the same alignment (i.e., cerberus will be attacking other cerberus and so on).
The damage improvement of DS:
FAMILIAR 2,5 > 3 (20%)
HORNED OVERSEER 2,5 > 4 (60%)
CERBERUS 5 > 6 (20%)
SUCCUBUS MISTRESS 9,5 > 13 (37%)
NIGHTMARE 12 > 16 (33%)
PIT FIEND 22 > 31 (41%)
ARCHDEVIL 51 > 66 (29%)
1a. 100 Familiars with DS attack familiars:
Damage = trunc(creature damage value * stack size * (1 + 0,05 *
(attack-defense)))
=trunc(3*100*(1+0,05*(3-2)))
=315
1b. 100 Familiars with RM attack familiars:
Damage = trunc (2,5*100*(1+0,05*(15-2)))
=412
1c. 100 Familiars with no spells attack familiars:
Damage = trunc (2,5*100*(1+0,05*(3-2)))
=262
2a. 100 Horned Overseers with DS attack Horned Overseers:
Damage = trunc(creature damage value * stack size * (1 - (defense-attack) /
(20+defense-attack))
=trunc(4*100*(1-(4-3)/(20+4-3)))
=380
2b. 100 Horned Overseers with RM attack Horned Overseers:
Damage = trunc (2,5*100*(1+0,05*(15-4)))
=387
2c. 100 Horned Overseers with no spells attack Horned Overseers:
=trunc(2,5*100*(1-(4-3)/(20+4-3)))
=237
3a. 70 Cerberus with DS attack Cerberus:
Damage = trunc(creature damage value * stack size * (1 + 0,05 *
(attack-defense)))
=trunc(6*70*(1+0,05*(4-2)))
=462
3b. 70 Cerberus with RM attack Cerberus:
Damage = trunc (5*70*(1+0,05*(16-2)))
=595
3c. 70 Cerberus with no spells attack Cerberus:
Damage = trunc (5*70*(1+0,05*(4-2)))
=385
4a. 50 Succubus Mistresses with DS attack Succubus Mistresses:
Damage = trunc(creature damage value * stack size * (1 + 0,05 *
(attack-defense)))
=trunc(13*50*(1+0,05*(6-6)))
=650
4b. 50 Succubus Mistresses with RM attack Succubus Mistresses:
Damage = trunc (9,5*50*(1+0,05*(18-6)))
=760
4c. 50 Succubus Mistresses with no spells attack Succubus Mistresses:
Damage = trunc (9,5*50*(1+0,05*(6-6)))
=498
5a. 40 Nightmares with DS attack Nightmares:
Damage = trunc(creature damage value * stack size * (1 + 0,05 *
(attack-defense)))
=trunc(16*40*(1+0,05*(18-18)))
=640
5b. 40 Nightmares with RM attack Nightmares:
Damage = trunc (12*40*(1+0,05*(30-18)))
=768
5c. 40 Nightmares with no spells attack Nightmares:
Damage = trunc (12*40*(1+0,05*(18-18)))
=480
6a. 20 Pit Lords with DS attack Pit Lords:
Damage = trunc(creature damage value * stack size * (1 + 0,05 *
(attack-defense)))
=trunc(31*20*(1+0,05*(22-21)))
=651
6b. 20 Pit Lords with RM attack Pit Lords:
Damage = trunc (22*20*(1+0,05*(34-21)))
=726
6c. 20 Pit Lords with no spells attack Pit Lords:
Damage = trunc (22*20*(1+0,05*(22-21)))
=462
1a. 10 Archdevils with DS attack Archdevils:
Damage = trunc(creature damage value * stack size * (1 + 0,05 *
(attack-defense)))
=trunc(66*10*(1+0,05*(31-29)))
=726
2a. 10 Archdevils with RM attack Archdevils:
Damage = trunc (51*10*(1+0,05*(43-29)))
=867
2a. 10 Archdevils with no spells attack Archdevils:
Damage = trunc (51*10*(1+0,05*(31-29)))
=561
Conclusion: you can see that Righteous might beats Divine strength in every situation; and that it beats it by a lot, except in the case of horned overseers. For the end, here is the comparison of
the total damage done with no spells, with Divine strength, and with Righteous might:
With no spell: 2885
With Divine strength: 3824 (increase 33%)
With Righteous Might: 4515 (increase 56%)
With Divine Strength and Righteous might: 6038 (increase 109%)
This is why I like Light Magic 
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
|
|
Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
|
|
posted June 14, 2006 02:54 PM |
|
|
I love light magic, those buffs (and other) are quite a treat. Also like it to mix with dark magic.
____________
|
|
Thanatos
Known Hero
|
|
posted June 14, 2006 02:55 PM |
|
|
|
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't DS at expert level increse your damage always to it's maximum (so Archdevils do 66-66, Pit Lords do 31-31, etc.)?
|
|
Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
|
|
posted June 14, 2006 02:59 PM |
|
|
Yep, that's correct.
____________
|
|
Vicheron
Known Hero
|
|
posted June 14, 2006 05:18 PM |
|
|
You don't really need to do that much math to figure out how much damage Divine Strength and Righteous Might increases. Expert Righteous Might increases average damage by at least 30% which means that it'll be better than Divine Strength as long as a creature's maximum damage is 30% less than its average damage since Divine Strength increases damage by the difference between average and maximum damage.
With Dark Magic, Weakness and Suffering reduces enemy damage by the same amount Divine Strength and Righteous Might increases the damage of friendly creatures. However, Slow is a better spell than Haste. Casting slow on enemies allow your hero to cast more spells before the enemy moves. Slow actually decreases movement more than Haste increases movement because 40% less movement equates to 66.7% more movement for the non-slowed creatures.
|
|
Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
|
|
posted June 14, 2006 08:46 PM |
|
|
All this math to prove that a level 3 spell is better than a level 1 ?
____________
If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
|
|
Incendax
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted June 14, 2006 09:12 PM |
|
Edited by Incendax at 21:12, 14 Jun 2006.
|
Quote:
All this math to prove that a level 3 spell is better than a level 1 ?
Naah, it means that most factions can ignore the Master of Blessings pick over Master of Wrath, especially if you've got a very limited amount of time to level before you run into your opponent, unless you just want to be a buffmeister.
____________
|
|
Vicheron
Known Hero
|
|
posted June 14, 2006 09:16 PM |
|
|
|
Master of Blessings gives you mass Clensing, which you'll really need if you're fighting an enemy with Mass Confusion.
|
|
Thanatos
Known Hero
|
|
posted June 14, 2006 09:36 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Master of Blessings gives you mass Clensing, which you'll really need if you're fighting an enemy with Mass Confusion.
Or Mass Slow, Mass Weakness, Mass Decay etc 
|
|
Rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
|
|
posted June 14, 2006 11:02 PM |
|
|
hydra: thanks for your help
gus: no, my intention was to show that in most, if not (almoust) all cases RM beats DS, because people seem to think that, i.e., it is better to cast DS then RM on Archdevils because of big damage range, in fact it's quite the opposite. I think it's still nice to know how much more damage aproximately you'll do: in H3 mass bless could sometimes get you to +35 or so (Fortress i.e.) - mass spells are far more powerful in H5 and are to be feared.
____________
|
|
Vicheron
Known Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2006 05:32 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Master of Blessings gives you mass Clensing, which you'll really need if you're fighting an enemy with Mass Confusion.
Or Mass Slow, Mass Weakness, Mass Decay etc
Well, mass haste cancels out mass slow, mass divine strength cancels out mass weakness, and mass decay doesn't do that much damage.
|
|
Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2006 07:24 AM |
|
Edited by Fuzzier at 07:31, 15 Jun 2006.
|
Good work for the sweet H3 style strategy guide!
So the damage calculation is similar to H3?
1 more (attack-defense) = 5% more damage (as I see in your calculation)
1 more (defense-attack) = 2% less damage? (I guess)
Expert Righteous Magic boosts attack by 12 points, which could be over-powered; in H3 expert Bloodlust/Precision boosts attack by 6 points.
Compared to H3, in H5 12 more attack effectively give you another additional 6*5%=30% more damage, that is out-righteous!
|
|
rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
|
|
posted June 15, 2006 02:07 PM |
|
|
I hope that people will be more likely to start exploring the math behind h5 now
The formula are not quite the same as in h3; I took them from http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=529 (by Pitsu)
I do not think that it's overpowered; I think that bloodlust/weakness were too weak in h3
____________
|
|
maltz
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 20, 2006 11:14 PM |
|
Edited by maltz at 23:14, 20 Jul 2006.
|
Eh... actually, Mass Righteous Might gives 12 more points in attack, and it will be converted to 12 x 5% = 60% more damage, not 30%. This is also shown in the OP's calculation.
When attacker's ATTACK is greater than the defender's DEFENSE, this 60% bonus is always applied.
In the more extreme cases, where the attacker's attack is lower than, then the bonus damage is not 60% (but still very good!).
Now you know why Master of Wrath rules (with Mass Haste as well!)
|
|
scytheavatar
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted July 21, 2006 06:56 AM |
|
|
Your arguement is flawed. You forgot to consider the fact that the % damage bonus of RM decreases as the gap between the attack and defense stats increases, as it doesn't change the base damage, while that of DS remains the same. So using your example,
10 Archdevils with DS attack Succubus Mistresses:
Damage = trunc(creature damage value * stack size * (1 + 0,05 *
(attack-defense)))
=trunc(66*10*(1+0,05*(31-6)))
=1485
10 Archdevils with RM attack Succubus Mistresses:
Damage = trunc (51*10*(1+0,05*(43-6)))
=1453
10 Archdevils with DS attack Familiar:
Damage = trunc(creature damage value * stack size * (1 + 0,05 *
(attack-defense)))
=trunc(66*10*(1+0,05*(31-2)))
=1617
10 Archdevils with RM attack Familiar:
Damage = trunc (51*10*(1+0,05*(43-2)))
=1555
So you see that in these cases the bonus of DS is greater than that of RM. And that's not considering the stats of the heroes. If the attacking hero has a greater attack than the defense of the defending hero, the bonus of DS will be even greater.
While I agree that RM usually is a better spell than DS, I think you are underestimating the power of DS.
____________
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 21, 2006 10:18 AM |
|
|
|
I've got a better idea instead of arguing which one is better: use both ^_^
|
|
TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
|
|
posted July 21, 2006 10:44 AM |
|
|
Righteous Might is great. Divine Strength is also nice.
If you cast them both you will almost double the power of your troops. Mass spells are the best thing right now 
|
|
Haldowan
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 21, 2006 12:35 PM |
|
|
I will always use Divine Strength when I'm playing Haven. And if I'm attacking LvL 6-7 creatures who are already buffed with Endurance I will use Righteous Might.
I'm to lazy to do the math, somebody help me please ? Remember that Haven heroes always add Attack to the army.
That is why I think that Divine Strength is better. The damage range is 2-8 (Marksmen), 5-15 (Imperial Griffin) and 20-30 (Paladins). With that big difference between lowest and highest damage, isn't Divine Strength always better ?
____________
|
|
dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
|
|
posted July 21, 2006 12:58 PM |
|
|
Quote:
You forgot to consider the fact that the % damage bonus of RM decreases as the gap between the attack and defense stats increases, as it doesn't change the base damage, while that of DS remains the same.
So if you are fighting low level neutrals who have low defense with a hero with many attack points you should probably use DS, while RM is better if fighting units with high defense compared to your creatures' attack.
____________
open source for an open mind
|
|
TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
|
|
posted July 21, 2006 02:01 PM |
|
|
it might be if you only had griffins & marksmen in your army, but for the other stacks it is much worse than Righteous Might ... think about angels & archangels ... no benefits from DS here
anyway after you cast righteous might you should use divine strength too.
|
| |
|
|
