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| Thread: Is Heroes 4 a disastrous game? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
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posted July 08, 2006 06:55 PM |
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Yea I think I've been a little imprecise with my statement. Since "best" is subjective. I should say "strategically the deepest, most challenging, and takes the most skills to play well". And that becomes a fact then.
Really, it's like comparing chess to say reversi (sorry don't know english games so I picked one). Both can be fun, I agree. I also agree that mastering an easier game can be more fun actually... or a different way of fun.
I based "best" on being the most strategic, etc...
Which was - of course - subjective, since people play games for different reasons.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 08, 2006 08:19 PM |
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I read abt this thread 'the most favourite games of Heroes'. Everyone like heroes 3, no one mention abt heroes 4. Well, i dun like the upgraded creature featuring in heroes 3 n 5. I oso like the vampire in heroes 4. Heroes 3 vampire is NOT a vampire at all!!! Heroes 5 vampire looks like a chinese/japanese wit his hairstyle... So, do u all think tat heroes 4 is a failure of the HOMM series?
Well i don't think H4 is "disastrous". I played the game when it was relaesed and stopped playing it when H5 came out. After mastering the game you know all the dirty things in the game and nobody can stop you. Vampires for instance... No doubt the strongest units in the hole game. And no more than 9lv's to your Necromancer hero and you get them from free from the battles. AND that's why we love it but that's breaks the balance and then H4 is no more good multi-player game. Good for sp games only. H5 has really good balance. I really wait nivals Expansions. Stronghold has to be back. Maybe they give Cyclops that Area Attack special. "Let's kill all enemies whit one shot!" ..."Cool" but not really...
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted July 09, 2006 12:44 PM |
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Edited by csarmi at 12:52, 09 Jul 2006.
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It's completely the other way around. Heroes 4 is all about multiplayer. By far the most interesting and challenging of them all. Only downside is that it takes a lot of time (longer than usual heroes 3 or heroes 2 games).
Yes Death is overpowered in the original release (mass cancellation, vampires, assasins) but it is balanced in the equilibris mod (rather call it patch).
The rest are very balanced... actually the most balanced amongst the heroes games.
As for single player. The original maps suck bigtime (the campaigns are okay for they teach you some good tricks), they weren't playtested at all, I'm 100% sure about that... and were made by people who had no idea of game mechanics. AI sux. (was made better in patches and equi though)
But since the map editor is light years ahead of h3, a lot of very good single player maps have been made (and tons of good and balanced multiplayer maps, some even have randomness in it).
So single playing can be enjoyed as well.
It came out with the sucky original maps, a broken AI and some bugs plus the company bankrupt (that's why they hurried it btw). And that - along with the changes and the deepness of gameplay - have scared a lot of people away.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 05:47 AM |
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Edited by Homer171 at 05:53, 10 Jul 2006.
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Yes, the single maps and the AI really sucked. I liked map editor also. I have the GS and WW expansion but still never tried that equilibris mod. Multi-player games were fun but not balanced. Creature specials were so powerful. Death ofcurse killed everyone in their way. Nature was really powerful whit two lv4 creatures. Mantis are strongest creatures in 1vs1 battles because of bind and first strike ability. Order are weakest of them all. It didn't have that advantage what other fanctions allways had.
I laughed my ass off when my friend challanged me whit Order. He had big army, two strong heroes and spells like Blind, Berserk, Hypnotize. My Undead army is ofcurse immune those nasty spells. Vampiric Touch to my Bone Dragons and we were good to go! No casulties in my side. Vampires and Bone Dragons wins battle so easely.
Many times you lose because enemy has advantage to your fantion. Never heard? "I take this, so then you can't take that town!" How can that be a balanced game when you don't have choice of winning whit all fanctions?
I like Might vs Nature battles. Others are little weaker but really it's not that bad. In frienly matches we only need ban the Death.
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Give me strength, that i may smite my enemies. Bequeath unto me power, that all who see me tremble.For every drop of blood shed by my allies.
And every of the fallen before me. I will redeem. For glory, strength, honor ... and vengeance.
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Cleash1
Hired Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 01:50 PM |
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Order are weakest of them all. It didn't have that advantage what other fanctions allways had.
I wouldn't go so far as to say Order are the weakest. True spells like Hypnotise are redundant against Death creatures but they cause major problems for the other towns. For Death towns other tactics need to be used thats all.
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted July 10, 2006 04:36 PM |
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Well if he had only two heroes, that already proves he was unskilled, so no wonders you defeated him. ESpecially with the overpowered death faction.
You should
1)install equilibris, or
2)not play death in mp, or
3)ban necromancy (death is still okay without necromancy)
when playing.
The rest of the factions are quite balanced. You have the chance to win with each. Ah and one more thing: first thing to do after installing the game should be the deletion of all maps those come with it... go to the www.toheroes.com or www.celestialheavens.com sites for good maps that are worth to play.
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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 11, 2006 01:33 AM |
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Edited by Homer171 at 05:40, 12 Jul 2006.
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This thread was about "is Heroes 4 a disastrous game?" And my thougs were it had little balance problems but still i prefer playing Heroes 4 than old H3. I might try that H4 mod. I liked H3 WoG mod but still played more H4. I only play Heroes 5 for now. I really wait their patches and look forward to see that Map Editor.
Heroes 4 is NOT disastrous game.
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It is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them.
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Nebukanezar
Hired Hero
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posted July 12, 2006 10:49 AM |
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I didn't like heroes IV...
It is true that the new skill system was invented for this vesion along with some other good improvements.
What I didn't like was that I felt that all of the original towns had been mixed, which i really didn't like...
Heroes IV sucks...
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Cleash1
Hired Hero
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posted July 13, 2006 03:08 PM |
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Yeah the towns were mixed which didn't match HOMM3 but that was to balance out the towns. And lets face creatures like the Griffins may no be with life but they are a lot harder and cooler than they were before
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boogert
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 15, 2006 12:31 PM |
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dude i loved heroes 4! it was my favorite....my dream is that someone will come up with a mod, or their will be an expansion pack that brings back some of the creatures from heroes 4! and yes the vampires from4 were much cooler looking. they had the "classic" dracula look which is always a winner. but doesnt anyone in here miss creatures like gargantuams, cyclops, mantis, water elements, evil sorceress?? i mean heores 4 had way better creatures! and i also agree that the upgrade thing in 3 and 5 is stupid.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 15, 2006 05:27 PM |
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vampires from4 were much cooler looking. they had the "classic" dracula look which is always a winner. but doesnt anyone in here miss creatures like gargantuams, cyclops, mantis, water elements, evil sorceress?? i mean heores 4 had way better creatures! and i also agree that the upgrade thing in 3 and 5 is stupid.
  These vampires looks really great. Unfortunate vampires arent no longer powerhouse in H5. Low level tiers aren't useless in H5 and that's a good think! H4 had stronger creatures no doubt. But i don't really miss those strong creatures. That leaves lower tiers more useful. Like Hunters are quite good in H5 but in H4 creatures like Elfs were totally useless!
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timagalant
Hired Hero
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posted July 16, 2006 05:57 PM |
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I have no idea what you guys are talking about.
Heroes 4 is the best in the series, and from what I see now, will remain the best.
It has great gameplay, and with equi it's balanced. Most strategic of them all as well. Correct usage of heroes and creatures, with different skills and classes are needed to win. Basicly in heroes 3 (and from what I saw, 5 too) you just buy all the creatures you can (there isn't even choice as to which ones), and go to battle, attacking the fastest you can (as all the creatures have "first strike").
The point you can choose which creature dwellings to build, according to your style of play and the current game, and many other things make it so much better than all the others.
Though the AI really does suck, so much I can't play with it anymore. But multiplayer is great, and very challenging.
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ArcticGenie
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 23, 2006 07:40 PM |
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HIV Disastrous? No way, but there are certain flaws and misunderstandings that I will point out below. Some might have been fixed in patches, as I have not downloaded any patch for Heroes IV.
The AI is weak, and I always play on champion, where the AI is weak.
You can't play against an AI Nature-alignment as the AI builds the creature portal, but never hire the creatures, which are there for your hiring when you defeat it/him.
People who believe Mantises are the right choice in the creature portal are wrong!!! The right choice is Water Elementals (their spells are quick-sand, fatigue, ice-bolt and weakness) even though they slow down your army.
People who believe Vampires are the best 3rd level creatures are wrong!!! Vampires are the second best 3rd level creature.
The best 3rd level creature is the genie who can create an illusion of Titans, Devils or Vampires (though they have to be on the combat-map) or kill the enemy-vampires with an ice bolt. Genies have double-growth compared to vampires, and one genie creates an illusion of 18 hitpoints or does ice-bolt damage of 18 hitpoints. Just teleport the vampires away with the expert order-magic spell and smack the puny bastard with an ice-bolt. They're gone! The Genie also have song of peace and slow which are good to use early in the game. Split the genies so that you have at least two lone genies in your army early on. That way you can slow down enemy armies and secure that range units don't fire (song of peace).
No balance between factions. 1. Order, 2. Nature, 3. Death. The others are dull.
The Vampire is stronger than the faerie-dragon? I think not! Smach the vampires with your water elementals and faerie-dragons.
Death-alignment can be dangerous, but only with master order magic: Mass-slow, blind and berserk. Who thought that the hypnotize-spell was a good idea? It's way too strong! It must be banned! Try playing against a good human player on a large-map who have two heroes with grandmaster order magic including the hypnotize-spell. If they have steal all enchantments as well, you're probably in for a surprise as it removes the guardian angels you got from drinking immortality BEFORE the battle. You can wave that white flag! Doesn't matter if you have an army 10 times bigger than his, you are screwed! (Unless three of your heroes have mass excorsism to remove forgetfulness, berserk, hypnotize, blind, the mass slow etc. and some other great spells in their sleeves). But if the enemy starts out by casting steal all enchantments, removing guardian angels from all your heroes, then the other enemy hero casts hypnotize on your best hero or creature, I'd say the battle is over! You have to drink immortality to keep your heroes alive, but then one of the enemy grandmaster order heroes casts steal all enchantments again, then the other use hypnotize. There is no cure, you can't use mass excorsism 'cause next turn that hero is most likely to be dead! You lose! (If you have Ring of Permanancy you are immune to steal enchantment, you might have a chance then. It also helps with Robe of the Guardian on your heroes).
The order magic is too good!!! Only faction that stands a chance against order or order-mages is Nature, with plenty of water-elementals who are immune to ice-bolt and mind-spells (as long as the enemy doesn't have The Ring of Greater Negation), and plenty of Faerie-Dragons with their magic-mirror ability against ice-bolts from Genies and other spells. It takes a lot of time to kill Faerie-Dragons, while the Water-Elementals casts ice-bolts. The genies will of course create illusions of Titans in this kind of battle and attack Faerie-Dragons and Water Elementals from distance with the titans. The Griffin? Hahaha it's so puny!
One grandmaster-order mage is created in "no time".
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
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posted July 23, 2006 09:58 PM |
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People who believe Mantises are the right choice in the creature portal are wrong!!!
No they are right. Mantises are just much faster on the map and better overall. They just require different tactics than water elementals. Yes there can be some cases when waters are needed badly, but those are very rare. Btw you can actually cast Summon Water elemental (level 3 nature spell)...
And in endfights the bugs are just much better.
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People who believe Vampires are the best 3rd level creatures are wrong!!! Vampires are the second best 3rd level creature.
Most level 3's are pretty good. Yes there are some cheap tactics by vampires and genies.
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No balance between factions. 1. Order, 2. Nature, 3. Death. The others are dull.
Big mistake here! Death stans out by a mile and while nature is clearly 2nd best, order is one of the worst.
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Death-alignment can be dangerous, but only with master order magic...
Mistake again. Death should (usually) go the chaos way because they need to get a pathfinder.
And why would they need order magic... I think a simple death knight + necromancer + pathfinder combo is untoppable. Your army grows very fast, you have very good class (assasin +3 speed), you have devils (hero-killers), you have mass cancellation on level 3 (insanely overpowered), very fast start, etc..
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Who thought that the hypnotize-spell was a good idea? It's way too strong! It must be banned!
Hypnotize requires line of sight. It has it's uses, but usually easy to counter.
Steal al not bad, but I prefer mass cancel because you normally have 4-5 heroes in your army and since all have guardian angel already, you can steal only two potions (if there is nowhere to place the spell, it cant be stolen).
Order's big problem is the lack of pathfinder btw.
I find order magic pretty weak. You have good ideas btw and would probably fare good in multiplayer... and realize and learn fast where you are wrong. I'd say you are on the 2nd-3rd level out of 5...
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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.
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timagalant
Hired Hero
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posted July 23, 2006 11:43 PM |
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People who believe Mantises are the right choice in the creature portal are wrong!!!
No they are right. Mantises are just much faster on the map and better overall. They just require different tactics than water elementals. Yes there can be some cases when waters are needed badly, but those are very rare. Btw you can actually cast Summon Water elemental (level 3 nature spell)...
And in endfights the bugs are just much better.
It really depends. If you walk with elves in your army, the water elementals really don't slow you down THAT much. but that's pretty dumb. I usually play with 3 heroes and four flyers (sprites griffins pheonixes mantises), so water elementals will ruin my army if they'll replace the mantises.
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People who believe Vampires are the best 3rd level creatures are wrong!!! Vampires are the second best 3rd level creature.
Most level 3's are pretty good. Yes there are some cheap tactics by vampires and genies.
In equilibris they balanced the vampires so they're not as overpowered as they were before. Sure vampires are good, but you get 3 per week, which is lower than most 3rd level creatures.
There's no "best creature", as csarmi said. at least in equi they're balanced.
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No balance between factions. 1. Order, 2. Nature, 3. Death. The others are dull.
Big mistake here! Death stans out by a mile and while nature is clearly 2nd best, order is one of the worst.
Big mistake on both of you actually. In equi there's no best fraction. It's mostly based on the style of play. I really like nature, and can't stand order because it's very slow. Yeah, the magic owns, but that's just not me. In the original version, yeah, vampires made death overpowered. but now it's pretty balanced, and I don't like death at all.
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Death-alignment can be dangerous, but only with master order magic...
Mistake again. Death should (usually) go the chaos way because they need to get a pathfinder.
And why would they need order magic... I think a simple death knight + necromancer + pathfinder combo is untoppable. Your army grows very fast, you have very good class (assasin +3 speed), you have devils (hero-killers), you have mass cancellation on level 3 (insanely overpowered), very fast start, etc..
Umm. Why does death need a pathfinder more than other armies?
And since when is mass cancellation level 3? Maybe in the original version, though I didn't notice. It's level 5 in equilibris, where it should be.
And just for your knowledge, any combo is stoppable. There's no "best".
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Who thought that the hypnotize-spell was a good idea? It's way too strong! It must be banned!
Hypnotize requires line of sight. It has it's uses, but usually easy to counter.
I really can't say right or wrong here.
There has been a big discussion about the question if hypnotize is unbalanced. check it out here: http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1117&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted July 24, 2006 04:29 PM |
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Edited by csarmi at 16:38, 24 Jul 2006.
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It really depends. If you walk with elves in your army, the water elementals really don't slow you down THAT much. but that's pretty dumb. I usually play with 3 heroes and four flyers (sprites griffins pheonixes mantises), so water elementals will ruin my army if they'll replace the mantises.
Yes. Though it's always better to train as many heroes as possible. I usually have 4 or 5 in the army and level 1/2 troops get scrapped. Usually even level 3. In h4 vanilla you can't play with griffins btw. You have to get unicorns they are so much cheaper (and faster) to build.
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Big mistake on both of you actually. In equi there's no best fraction.
Yes but the guy was talking about h4 vanilla.
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Umm. Why does death need a pathfinder more than other armies?
Every race needs a pathfinder as you know yourself too. That means you probably buy a thief soon and since you can'T really mix heroes from 3 alignments (morale is a killer), you are going to play death+chaos.
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And since when is mass cancellation level 3? Maybe in the original version, though I didn't notice. It's level 5 in equilibris, where it should be.
Good point. But it was at level 3 in original which is just insane... even your pathfinder will cast it not to mention your death knight. And you get it very fast.
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And just for your knowledge, any combo is stoppable. There's no "best".
In original death is hardly stoppable. At least not in most maps. Awesome starting troops, ghosts, vampires on day 2, fast access tpo pathfinder, Necromancy at level 8, mass cancellation, devils. No, there was no way.
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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.
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timagalant
Hired Hero
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posted July 24, 2006 05:12 PM |
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I'm just confused about this:
What's h4 vanilla?
And I usually don't walk with a pathfinder, unless I find a scouting altar, or some place that teaches scouting
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 24, 2006 07:26 PM |
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I agree 100% what you say csarmi. You saved me lot of troble by writing those replies from ArcticGenies post. It's good to see there are players like you. And ArcticGenie your thougs were not bad but they were totally wrong. 
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted July 26, 2006 07:51 AM |
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I'm just confused about this:
What's h4 vanilla?
The original h4.
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And I usually don't walk with a pathfinder, unless I find a scouting altar, or some place that teaches scouting
Pathfinder is mandatory. 50% movement is just too much to be ignored.
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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.
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timagalant
Hired Hero
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posted July 26, 2006 01:49 PM |
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It takes a while until you get GM pathfinding
and your hero will obviously need some active skill, like combat, or some magic school
It's not so much of a must.
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