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| Thread: George W. Bush: The right man, at the right time for the tough job! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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muerte
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 28, 2006 09:41 PM |
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He instituted his tax cuts as soon as the economy showed signs of down turning.
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This is incorrect. George Bush began his campaign in 99 with the promise to cut taxes while Clinton's golden economy was still singing.
Wrong, Clinton's "economy" was flatlined and the country was heading into a recession before Bush took office. G.W.B. saw the downward trend of that economy and he did campaign on tax cuts as the way to fix it. He started instituting his tax cuts immediately after taking office, well as soon as he could get the house and senate on board anyway..
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Clinton meanwhile was using the extra revenue from the economy to pay off the debt that Reagan accumulated back in the 80's (you remember the 600 boat navy right Muerte?).
Sure, I remember. You are referring to the so-called "peace dividend" that was hard won by Reagan leading the Western World to victory in the Cold War against the now defunct Soviet Union by bankrupting them (and us)! Yep, the "peace dividend" that led to the massive scale back on funding for our C.I.A. and F.B.I and N.S.A. and Military budgets that many claim is the chief reason our pants were down around our collective ankles for every terror attack in the 90's and leading right up to 9/11? I remember it, but not so fondly as some do.
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Six years of tax cuts and Bush has made no move whatsoever to bring spending into balance with revenues. It's become apparant that borrowing money has become the Republican ideology, with no intention of ever paying it back. This is also a good example of something who's "account has not yet come to full reckoning"
I agree, I hate the spending policy. I want it stopped as much as the next guy.
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muerte
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 28, 2006 09:44 PM |
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Edited by muerte at 04:47, 29 Sep 2006.
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I don't think anyone is claiming the war on terror has "stopped". It's just that the resources and energy being used for the Iraqi war could be better used elseware. I mean Bush declares "war on terror". So what happened? I guess he changed his mind about the war on terror and decided to attack Iraq instead.
Umm, maybe you should ask Vadskye91 what he meant by this quote then:
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But do you realize how @#$%ing long this war will be? Even if, by some miracle, Iraq becomes a model democracy, the real war that we're not fighting now will go on- the war against terror. Naturally, the lack of privacy will continue to go on until the end of that war- if it has an end.
Also I wanted to link to the fairtax web site but I admit I don't know how here. Suggestions please?
Also I apologize for the number of nested quotes I use but I'm having to answer to a lot of posts and it keeps me straight, mostly. I will cut down in the future.
BTW, sorry for the double post. I didn't realize I had done so.
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However I think comparing modern war casualties with much older wars is a fruitless exercise because the military, political and social situations are not alike. If people have less tolerance to military losses today it is primarily because of the climate that most of our recent wars have been fought in. People naturally question whether the cost of fighting the war is worth the results that will come from it, or justified by the reasoning given to them for it being necessary.
Was this the issue you wanted to discuss? Why did I think you were hung up on the traffic fatalities?
This might be worth discussing in more detail if you more accurately define exactly where you draw the cut-off timeline that renders casualty comparisons fruitless. Without you being more specific on that point, it really makes discussing this post nearly impossible. I could end up wasting my time drawing a comparison only to have you pop in and say quite casually, “Meh, too far back. Doesn't work for me.” 
You say that past military, political and social situations are not alike? Bah, those situations are among the few constants throughout human history! Only the names change! 
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Vadskye91
Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
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posted September 29, 2006 02:07 AM |
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I meant that, by fighting the Iraq War, we can't use the resources that would be otherwise available to fight terror.
Incidentally, the economy was not flatlining while Clinton was in office- it only crashed after 9-11.
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Knowledge is power...
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muerte
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 29, 2006 02:33 AM |
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Edited by muerte at 03:32, 29 Sep 2006.
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I meant that, by fighting the Iraq War, we can't use the resources that would be otherwise available to fight terror.
Are you refering to money here? I'm not trying to be an ass for asking this but what resources are you talking about other than money? Military personnel? What would you do with them? March them all over Pakistan looking for Bin Laden? Because if you haven't noticed Pakistan doesn't want our troops crawling unfettered over their country side. They barely permit small infiltration teams and predator drones. Should we re-invade Afghanistan, perhaps?
I honestly believe the war on terror is being fought more covertly than any of us know ( and more to the point, it's being fought more covertly than any of us have a right to know. I believe in giving our spies the benefit of the doubt here. ) If you want to know government secrets than sign up and join the government, or the New York Times!
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Incidentally, the economy was not flatlining while Clinton was in office- it only crashed after 9-11.
Sorry, but it was d.o.a. when G.W.B. took the reigns. I'm not blaming Clinton for this, he didn't really do anything imo while he was in office other than perhaps some pretty decent welfare reform. 
The untenable dot com companies that were inflating that limp wristed economy with fictitious values had been going bust left and right leaving an economic vaccuum. Couple that with the worldwide "millenium bug scare" that had investors abandoning even safe stocks or physically removing their money from banks altogether ( although I'm not sure exactly the full impact of that ) and we were heading into recession before the year 2000.
@Xarfax111: I'm willing to meet you half way here Xarfax111 and address your points but you have to tone down your anger a bit.
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You say Ape Bush is the best president for the current situation.
What are your points/facts for that?
What do you think about Hillary Clinton?
Does the Irak have something to do with the Al-Quaida?
Those are 3 simple questions in my simple non-native english. Maybe you can give some facts and arguments (excluding "shes a liberal" ).
Well, if you take time to read my original post that should begin to answer your first point. Although the english word for his title is 'president' or 'mr.' not "ape".  But since english is your non-native language you can't be expected to know that and can therefore be forgiven for making this obviously un-intentional mistake.
As to your second point about Hillary. I think she's hot. I'd do her.
But seriously, if you have a more specific question about her, I'm willing to listen to it.
As to question number three that's really the toughest one you asked.
Let me answer it with a question back to you: With ample evidence that Al Queda members and cells existed before the Iraq war in a multitude of nations around the globe; including here in America; isn't it just as likely they had members and cells in Iraq as well? What made Iraq so special that you assume Bin Laden wouldn't deploy there?
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted September 29, 2006 05:10 AM |
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Edited by Consis at 06:57, 29 Sep 2006.
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Honor In America As A People
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Religion stops progress
What if I said: Atheism stops progress
President Dwight D. Eisenhower once said, "All governments are based on religion". This was something he said in relation to meeting with communist leaders and dignitaries. He remarked that he wouldn't even begin to know how to speak to a people who believed in not allowing at least some form of religious freedom.
Religion is man/woman-made yes? Thus it is flawed. We know this. Everyone in the whole world knows this. But neither is atheism apart from man/woman kind's inherent imperfection. We know this equally as well. No single person or the governments that rule them are perfect . . . which is why I disagree with our Declaration of Independence's: 'in order to form a more perfect union' comment. There is not, was not, and never will be, in the entire duration for the existence of the human race, a perfect union; be it a religion, government, or otherwise. It is, in my opinion, an imperfect thing to mention a perfect society in such an important document.
President George dubya Bush has comitted a grave war for his own intentions. Everyone knows this. His intentions are of course, without question, and of this we can all be certain: NOBLE. But herein lies the problem: If people are to be judged by their intentions then I would be king of the world. What people intend and what they actually do can be very different things indeed! I have three children and I have many neighbors who also have several children. We all come from different backgrounds and geographic birthplaces. We all have different religions and different philosophies on life. And yet despite all of our differences we (as parents) come together and tell our children collectively that fighting will not solve your problems. We tell them that we don't have all the answers to life but we agree that this one answer is undeniably central to living peacefully. I don't know what George dubya Bush was taught as a child. As an adult he thinks that for some reason war is the answer to the Iraqi dictatorship under Saddam Hussein.
Thus he starts his war, invades, bombs, kills, and takes prisoners on a massive scale. Many of the deaths are labeled "collateral damage". In otherwords he is telling the people of Iraq that since they didn't overthrow this dictator and choose to sacrifice their people of their own free will then we Americans will do it for you. We'll usurp your sovereignty . . . so to speak. In historical terms, the books might say something like this: "Iraq as a nation was weak. It had a valuable global resource. The strongest global power of the time took the initiative to feed its greed under the guise of false claims for national security and fear of weapons of mass destruction. (which America itself had in ample quantities left over from the cold war)"
But . . . what the history books will likely never describe . . . is how the people of America fought to hinder this previously unknown warmonger. And not only did they fight to stop him at every turn but also came to develop a love for the Iraqi people and their courage to endure: first a dictator and then a crusading capitalist! The people of America saw that the people of Iraq were struggling to find their place in this world. They saw how diligent they had become in fighting their own fanatical religious extremist. They saw that Iraqi people, along with most Americans, truly wanted peace in their hearts. And it all came to the surface at one State of the Union address when President George dubya Bush turned to honor the parents of one of the soldiers who died in Iraq. There he stood facing two ordinary Americans as the tears welled in their eyes over the thought over the loss of their son. Everyone was facing them and clapping. I knew these people. I grew up with them in Austin Texas. The mother was my boyscout den mother, the father my boyscout master and my church's deacon quorum's teacher for a time, and their daughter was the first girlfriend I ever had. The Norwood family was an average family. They lived in a very nice house with lots of expensive things and two expensive cars. All of which, they had no money to pay for. They were like most Americans: in debt up to their eyeballs. Most of their posessions were attributed to credit cards or some kind of loan. And there . . . on that day when the president of the United States of America and all of congress had come to honor their son's sacrifice . . . some thing happened which dwarfed all the politicians in the room. In the row down in front of Misses Norwood was an Iraqi woman who was also being honored that night. She too had probably lost many people who were very important to her as well. She turned around and began to clap for the Norwoods, Bill and Nora. She saw their faces and continued to clap. At that moment Misses Norwood leaned forward over the seating and gave the Iraqi woman one of the most genuined tear-filled hugs I have ever seen. It was beautiful. At that moment all the politicians and their fancy suits faded away, only for an instant, and I saw clarity in the space of a single hug.
You see . . . this war was originally the facetious pet of a man with warlike ambitions not in the best interest of the American people. But after the hug that I saw, I realized that WE THE PEOPLE had taken our mistake with this president and turned it into a cause for good. I knew that we would not let this president go on with his wars. And I knew that it was the soldiers we sent, the very same brave men and women whom the president had abused through political rhetoric to bend and twist for his own selfish purposes, that had suddenly come to exhonerate the injustices of a false war. We are there now and we aren't waging our presidents wars for him anymore. This is our war now. It is the Iraqi people that we love, not our president. This is the result of an American people who refuse to sit by and let our president run amuck. So smart was he . . . so educated . . . A Yale graduate . . . supposedly one of our "best schools" . . . and yet so inherently flawed . . . a man not unlike any other in this regard. But when a man refuses to acknowledge his own imperfections, he then choose a path that is utterly unchristian, immoral, and certainly doomed to repeat history . . . thus giving him his truly certified place in history as just another leader who refused to learn from the lessons of the past. If only his father hadn't been gone so much while he was growing up . . . if only the family realized one simple truth:
. . . 'If you want to save the world, it starts at home' . . .
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Vadskye91
Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
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posted September 29, 2006 05:43 AM |
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Consis, you are awesome. Bow before the awesomeness of Consis.
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I meant that, by fighting the Iraq War, we can't use the resources that would be otherwise available to fight terror.
Are you refering to money here? I'm not trying to be an ass for asking this but what resources are you talking about other than money? Military personnel? What would you do with them? March them all over Pakistan looking for Bin Laden? Because if you haven't noticed Pakistan doesn't want our troops crawling unfettered over their country side. They barely permit small infiltration teams and predator drones. Should we re-invade Afghanistan, perhaps?
There are several reasons why the Iraq War hinders the war on terror.
First, it has alienated most of our allies- countries who jumped to our aid after 9-11. If, as you say, having the Democrats and the Republicans ally would be so helpful, would not a concerted effort with the other powers of the world be so much more effective in stopping terrorism? Also, it has angered many radical Muslims and increased the ranks of terrorists far beyond what it was when 9-11 took place. Third, it has divided America into partisan bickering that has kept this Congress as the most useless Congress to date. Finally, it has turned a huge budget surplus into the largest national debt ever. (That may or may not be true if inflation is factored in. If anyone knows, I would appreciate it.)
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I honestly believe the war on terror is being fought more covertly than any of us know ( and more to the point, it's being fought more covertly than any of us have a right to know. I believe in giving our spies the benefit of the doubt here. )
If you want to know government secrets than sign up and join the government, or the New York Times!
There is a difference between telling us detailed military briefs and telling us something besides "No comment." and "I cannot confirm or deny...". The US public has no idea what this administration is doing to fight terrorism, and an uneducated populace is a populace that cannot possibly be expected to make informed decisions. If the only way we can win is by tearing down the principles of privacy and freedom this country was based on, is it really worth it?
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Knowledge is power...
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted September 29, 2006 07:16 AM |
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Edited by Consis at 07:17, 29 Sep 2006.
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Consider
What if during our worst and most grievously horrific period of slavery, some foreign nation decided to invade us to make us stop? What if we weren't allowed to slowly learn for ourselves how horrible a thing it was to own a slave? What if we were never given the chance to grow and nurture a man like Martin Luther King jr. ? What if he was simply killed by an occupying force because he didn't support their way of governing? Where would we be then? Where would we be without our heroes and our sovereignty? Many of the things that make us distinctly American would be gone. Things such as anti-monarchical, anti-slavery, Jazz music, civil rights for minorities, women are equal, greedy capitalist markets open to economic reforms, apologetic to native Americans, English speaking, apple pie eating, Elvis Presly, Willie Nelson, Bruce Springstein, Arnold Swarzenegger, Oprah Winfrey, KISS rock & roll, Coca Cola, American muscle cars, Woodstock, Jimmy Hendrix, President F.D.R. and his wife Ellenor, Lincoln, and the greatest of them all . . . . the man who could have been King of the United States of America . . . George Washington. But he did what any sensible American should do. He gave it up for the pleasantries of home . . . which is where most Americans' hearts truly lay. For Americans such as myself, home is where the heart is. It is sacred and private . . . and not so different from the homes of people who live in far away lands.
If we lost all of that where then will you go? Who then will you be? Well I don't know for sure but I know it wouldn't be American.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted September 29, 2006 11:26 AM |
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Nice summary here Consis.
Some things I don't understand though...due to missing informations or due to missunderstanding.
1. Your really think America wouldn't be "that great" today without religion?
2. What has "religion" to do with "end of slavery"?
3. Why does Religion has to be "connected" to government? Isn't Religion something "private", so every human being can have the choice to participate in religious actings or not?
More later....have to leave...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted September 29, 2006 12:36 PM |
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What if during our worst and most grievously horrific period of slavery, some foreign nation decided to invade us to make us stop? What if we weren't allowed to slowly learn for ourselves how horrible a thing it was to own a slave? What if we were never given the chance to grow and nurture a man like Martin Luther King jr. ? What if he was simply killed by an occupying force because he didn't support their way of governing?
If it was up to me, I would destroy a thousand million evil countries to save one innocent soul. I'm glad its not up to me 
Yes there have been many heroes in america, who fought for liberty and justice. Still, there is a long way to go. Working healthcare for everyone, the right to a job for everyone that wants one, real elections on impartial systems between people who have not sworn loyalty to the same secret club preferrably 
liberty is a great idea, and so is democracy. I hope that some day we will implement them both But for now, we live in troubled times, where the battle between western librty ideals and the islamist fundamentalism will rage on. Meanwhile, the Intellectual Property wars   and the Integrity vs Big Brother fight  will continue to evolve. Also, the centralization of power to unelected institutions vs the democratic ideals is something to keep an eye on. - But ultimately, these are all material aspects of reality, and most people are probably just happy to live their own lives, focusing on friends and family, at the expense of not being their brothers keeper. And who can blame them? 
But I'm sure we'll get there some day
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 29, 2006 02:04 PM |
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I don't like him... but that didn't stop me from voting for him.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. If you don't like him, then why vote for him?
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Hmm, a war without end. Sounds like the Democratic imposed "War on Poverty" we've had for 40 years now or the Bi-partisan "War on Drugs" for the last few decades. I'll admit the concept of the neverending war isn't new; it also isn't necesarily a given. I submit to you that if Democrats and Republicans could cross the aisle a bit more we could probably have this wrapped up in a few years or even less than a decade. Sound far fetched? Why? Your "never ending war" idea is much more unlikely, imho.
LOL! What about your "War on Terrorism"? If anything, that's a never-ending war.
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As for the U.S. having completely halted all attempts at fighting the War on Terror please show us something that supports that claim other than your personal opinion, that would be courteous imo.
The U.S. hasn't stopped fighting. The problem: its fighting isn't that successful.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted September 29, 2006 03:19 PM |
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Edited by Celfious at 15:24, 29 Sep 2006.
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What about your "War on Terrorism"? If anything, that's a never-ending war.
Proove it lol I am pretty sure, for instance, if the world turns forever there is infinate amounts of chances where this war will stop, and restart. Its infinatly possible it will stop for 10s of 1000s of years. (and of course infinatly possible the world will die)
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The U.S. hasn't stopped fighting. The problem: its fighting isn't that successful.
Not completely no but sep112001 was over 5 years ago and nothing happened since thats worked. BTW aids test your condoms and dental floss. Oops, did I say the obvious? Obvious to the government.
Maybe we all have aids now.
Some people belive we should have blown up africa. I dont but that would have had more success than our righteous path to ending terrorisim. Aslong as terrorisim stands there should be a fight against it. Unfortunatly I feel uneducated enough to determine how we should stand against it.
Maybe those who are educated made the right decisions but I wont learn the truth of that from a forum of people who go on hearsay and things like that.
I am glad there has been no epidemic, but the government should watch large production companies more closely. Otherwise we will say again, "we didnt know the capacity of the terrorists" (which they said about 9-11-01, when they didnt realize what ignorant psychotic brutes they really were.)
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What are you up to
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted September 29, 2006 03:23 PM |
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Edited by Consis at 15:26, 29 Sep 2006.
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Mvassilev,
I've said it before in bort's old thread. I voted for the common American soldier. Kerry represented a time when soldiers were spat on when they returned home. I could never vote for a president that might cause a similar movement to occur. I was once a soldier and I believe in them. They are very important to the people of this country. They need to know we love them and only want them to come home . . . they should be welcomed home. The war began as a instrument of greed but the common American soldier has taken that unjust beginning and turned it into an instrument of compassion. These people are good quality Americans; home-grown and raised with good hearts filled with superb decency. They are our daughters, our sons, our friends & family. Only through them can we hope to turn this ridiculous war around. Only through them can we show the Iraqi people that we love them. This is why I voted for Bush. Have you ever heard of the political strategy referred to as: "The devil you know" ??? That's what I did.
And with regard to Abu Graib . . . those few inhumane immoral deviants who participated were dealt with appropriately! We brought the hammer down on them . . . and that's as it should be.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted September 29, 2006 08:14 PM |
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What has "religion" to do with "end of slavery"?
I'd go as far to say that most of the early abolitionists (certainly those in Britain anyway and I suspect many in the States) felt so strongly about the cause because of their religious convictions. Slavery was seen to run contrary to christianity by most of them and they sprinkled their speeches with quotes from the New Testament. However many in the south during the Civil War felt just as strongly that god was on their side and that he favoured slavery too.
But as Lincoln once said "In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be, wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time."
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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muerte
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 29, 2006 11:06 PM |
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Edited by muerte at 23:32, 29 Sep 2006.
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it has alienated most of our allies- countries who jumped to our aid after 9-11…., would not a concerted effort with the other powers of the world be so much more effective in stopping terrorism?
Don’t stop there, go all the way! Tell us which countries you believe should do more in the War on Terror but aren’t doing so because they have an affected attitude towards us! I’m interested to hear your list of countries you believe are not co-operating with us that should be playing a key role.
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Also, it has angered many radical Muslims and increased the ranks of terrorists far beyond what it was when 9-11 took place.
Are you referring to the same radical Muslims that already wanted to kill us westerners, or perhaps you had another group of radical Muslims in mind? Because I honestly don’t care about hurting the feelings of terrorists or potential terrorists; in fact; I really would like to hurt them more than that.
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Third, it has divided America into partisan bickering that has kept this Congress as the most useless Congress to date.
I’ll agree that there is partisan bickering in this country, but it was here way before the War in Iraq. Also, there aren’t many useful Congresses, but the war in Iraq isn’t making this one lame, it’s because they mostly all suck anyway. Look at that group of power hungry vultures and tell me: which one do you believe should be our next president? The sad thing about that is, I may have no better option than to vote for one of them.
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Finally, it has turned a huge budget surplus into the largest national debt ever. (That may or may not be true if inflation is factored in. If anyone knows, I would appreciate it.)
I’m interested in someone helping you on this point, also; because I don’t recall any actual budget surplus that was anything more than “projected” which is another word for “not really existing”. I’m willing to concede this point if someone can prove it for you. I’m not totally against agreeing with you.
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The US public has no idea what this administration is doing to fight terrorism
Why should the American public know, don’t you think the terrorists might find out that way also?
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and an uneducated populace is a populace that cannot possibly be expected to make informed decisions.
Thanks for the smile. You are implying there was ever an educated American public making informed decisions? Ever? Not likely! No offense friend, but that is funny every time I read it.
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If the only way we can win is by tearing down the principles of privacy and freedom this country was based on, is it really worth it?
Ok, lets dig in then. Tell me exactly: How have you have been affected; personally; by this so called “tearing down the principles of privacy and freedom” ?
Sorry again for the nested quotes.
Also as an aside, the reason I mentioned 'off topic' so much is because the other site I post at more often is very strict about off topic posts. I'm really starting to appreciate the value of watching the discussions unfold here, and I apologize for coming off as a snobby ass earlier in the thread. The looser style of moderation here is refreshing.
@Consis: Quote:
'If you want to save the world, it starts at home'
That was a very moving post and I appreciate you sharing it with us.
@Trogdor: I apologize for calling you an ignorant liberal, That was wrong of me.
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 01, 2006 01:23 PM |
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This seems as a rather "plesant" disscusion.
There is alot I could say about Mr. Bush, his politics and administration. Belive me that it wouldn't be anything pleasnt.
But then again, let's look at the bigger picture.
Gore vs Bush and Kerry vs. Bush has been brought up here a couple of times. This is another very interesting topic. We could argou on and on as to what they would do different. What choices would Gore or Kerry make different from those of the Bush administration. But those are all theories.
But let's look at the big picture here. Mr. Bush is just a puppet. A doll in the hands of the real masters. Well it would be better to introduce him as a Figure, that a colective of people selected to serve thier interests. Well we have the oil tycoons, the weapons manufacturers, the hardline conservatives... This range of people is very wide.
But their main goal is to keep the power and the money. These people have been present in the American politics for a long time.
They are the same people who stand behind the masskillings and Coup's in Central and southern america, the same people who founded Islamic Fundamentalist, the same people who have supplied Isreal with weapons... I could go on.
On the key issues both the Democrats and the Republicans are the same, because they are founded by the same people.
Sept. 11th, the War on Terror, Iraq and Afghanistan... I cant and wont deny that the events of September 11t happened. Better said, that something happened. Who was behind it and why it happened is something different. But let's look at what it lead to.
The events of September 11th were a nice trigger. A trigger for a series of events.
Yes the international - Afghanistan and Iraq, and also domestic such as the Patriot act or the Domestic Security Enhancement Act.
This administration has been suppresing civil liberties both at home and abroad.
There are many issues to disscus, such as Enviromental issues, or the so called Free trade...
But no question that George Walker Bush was the right man at the right time. For a group of people he was what just they needed. And maybe he was what you needed too. Or perhaps we all need a big glass of the hard and very sour reality.
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MightyMage
Honorable
Legendary Hero
of INSANITY and DELICIOUSNESS
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posted October 02, 2006 06:01 AM |
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Wow. Most who know me will tell you that I am not a big fan of our current President. I could go on and on with my reasons (number one stating that nearly every time he's on TV he looks like such a freakin...)
But I won't...not yet anyway.
However, I did find this picture while searching the internet for a completely different topic and felt it summed up part of my feelings.
I had to edit it though due to the obvious CoC restrictions on naughty language.
It makes for a very good political cartoon if you ask me.
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Though I must still bow
in awe for the awesomeness that is
MightyMage. For he is all I could ever
want to be! - OhforfSake
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 02, 2006 06:41 PM |
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Edited by Celfious at 19:04, 02 Oct 2006.
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Hm, there are good people in africa. Good people who have a vision of freedom who ask for our help. Sure, a lot of people need help, etheopia, india, tailand, ect, but do terrorists force their beliefs upon them? NO
Terrorists are less than the worm under a rock. Beliefs are man made (truly).
What should we have done huh? Let the terrorist countries wreak havvok? NO
lol
Maybe those with assumed hatred against anything should pay attention to that which they hat in order to restore their knowledge of self ignorance. Ignorance is a harsh word though.... I dont intend to be harsh, but how many bush haters heard what he had to say recently? Man that country Afghanistan likes us there. The main opposers of American assistance and war against terror (and foring beliefs) are people who are scared of terrorists.
That I can say with what little I know... I might be wrong about country names or something but oh well.. Can someone IM me stuff about us being in iraq other than opinoins? I mean geeze, iraq has a "U"less Q... jk but seriously tell me are there terrorists there in iraq? We should care about fuel prices. Do yall know we found an oil source in america which is more than what we believe iraq has? Well, we did. here are our sources beyond our 50 something years of harvested reserves
There are 10 billion barrels of recoverable oil in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, making ANWR the equivalent of an oil-exporting nation.
Then there are the energy resources off America's coasts. They are estimated to contain 16 billion barrels of oil and 70 trillion cubic feet of natural gas
In 1981 Congress banned new offshore drilling, but as we have seen in the Gulf of Mexico, offshore drilling is clean and safe
"So again, we do not need more oil in America. All we need is already here in capped oil wells." --Sam Booher, a shareholder in ExxonMobil
Bush's answer seems to be to find more oil in America
Thats stuff from google.. random stuff.
My thoughts on it is we have enough oil and going into a country spending 10 times what we would on buying their oil, to get oil, is so stupid its impossible so why are we there? IMs or post here thanks
PS, I know I say we dont need their fuel and all but I still dont condone the mass energy expenditure going on in america.. Nor do I condone americans bickering about $3 a gallon. Especialy because I hear its like $10 a gallon in other places.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 02, 2006 07:02 PM |
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It makes for a very good political cartoon if you ask me.
Hm, we are what gonna free the terrorists? rolfz We're not gonna bomb the ones we're trying to help nor does it appear so.
how about a political cartoon about cartoons which are done by people who twist the facts 100% ?
By the way, what bombs have we talked about using? Besides the ones which killed the murderer of David berg. A bomb? Bush riding a bomb talking about freeing its target?
no hard feelings I'm just bashing a cartoon which is a lie.
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Korejora
Promising
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posted October 03, 2006 08:59 PM |
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What has "religion" to do with "end of slavery"?
I'd go as far to say that most of the early abolitionists (certainly those in Britain anyway and I suspect many in the States) felt so strongly about the cause because of their religious convictions. Slavery was seen to run contrary to christianity by most of them and they sprinkled their speeches with quotes from the New Testament. However many in the south during the Civil War felt just as strongly that god was on their side and that he favoured slavery too.
But as Lincoln once said "In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be, wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time."
Religion may have been a (slight) factor, and it might have been a good enough excuse that they could bring it up repeatedly in the north, but I don't think it was really what brought about the end of slavery in the United States...
Think about it: What was the economy mostly based on back then? Agriculture. The northern states were beginning to modernize this agriculture, which meant that they needed a skilled workforce of farmers to buy and use the modern equipment. Keeping in mind that slaves are expensive (you need to take care of all their basic needs: food, shelter, etc.) it was financially backwards not to abolish slavery in the north.
In the south, on the other hand, they hadn't made that modernization movement. Their agriculture was based on plantations. Of course the south didn't want to give up slavery! On plantations, you don't need skill or specialization; you just need an extensive labour force... i.e. slaves!
Eventually, of course, all the parts of the country caught up with each other, and it was silly to keep slaves as part of the economy. All the states had pretty much rid themselves of slavery by the time it was actually federally banned.
I don't claim to know a lot about American politics, but this is one thing that's a little straightforward... History doesn't tend to be swayed by conscience or morals.
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That's the best part. 
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 03, 2006 10:06 PM |
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I responded to what it had to do with slavery ending, not what extent it was responsible for it.
Lincoln after all was an intensely practical man with the principle aim to preserve the Union, not free the slaves (though he undoubtedly agreed with their freedom on the grounds of morality). The Emancipation Proclomation was born out of and justified to the Northern public by military necessity as a war measure, not moral justification. Lincoln was certainly more affected by need than morality but he was to a degree swayed by what he felt was right, therefore history was swayed by morals to a degree on this occasion.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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