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| Thread: Combined creatures |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Kabukiman
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 09, 2006 10:52 AM |
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Combined creatures
Hi folks,
for years I've been thinking about combining creatures to create new ones. Eg. in Heroes III you had Goblins and Wolves and Goblin Riders - seperate Production there.
I think combining creatures could result in some very interesting combinations, especially when combining creatures from different towns.
Think about the kind of creatures you coud create this way:
- foot unit + mount = mounted unit, e.g. lizard rider + blood maiden = mounted blood maiden
- ranged unit + tank = shielded ranged unit, e.g. crossbowmen + footmen = siege crossbow
Implementation could be pretty easy via map building just like the hill fort.
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 09, 2006 03:20 PM |
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What do you want to do? Mutate them? And If there are so many combinations, who is going to make all this? If you were thinking some years about it, you should be able to give good answers now...
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 09, 2006 06:15 PM |
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Combining creatures sounds interesting, or at least very creative.
Of course the possibilities shouldn't be limitless, maybe one combination within each faction and one combination between every two different factions.
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted October 10, 2006 04:59 AM |
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From what I have read, it seems that there is a very easy way out. All you need to do is to classify each class of creatures to steeds and riders (?). This limits the number of possible combinations and avoids many confusion. As a further limitation, any rider of any factions may not use steeds of opposite alignments.
A mounted steed shall have an increased attack/ defence/ damage /iniative /speed. When rider of the steed is killed, the steed may still fight with its normal stats, but enraged.
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 10, 2006 05:16 AM |
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while interesting, I fear it does not help solve one of the biggest hurdle in making new unit/creatures... and that is the Graphics.
The stats, ablity, and the balance of, are relative easy to change... but it is the making new models, animations, and artwork to go with them that take up much of the effort.
Maybe if given a more persuasive reasoning on the necessarity of it, for now I would vote no....
(but I still like the idea of it)
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted October 10, 2006 04:56 PM |
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Firstly
Quote:
while interesting, I fear it does not help solve one of the biggest hurdle in making new unit/creatures... and that is the Graphics.
The stats, ablity, and the balance of, are relative easy to change... but it is the making new models, animations, and artwork to go with them that take up much of the effort.
Maybe if given a more persuasive reasoning on the necessarity of it, for now I would vote no....
(but I still like the idea of it)
Graphics are big i know but still im sure we can find a way of doing things, eg add sadle or reins, but even so they may not work. The true way is below.
Secondly
Quote:
From what I have read, it seems that there is a very easy way out. All you need to do is to classify each class of creatures to steeds and riders (?). This limits the number of possible combinations and avoids many confusion. As a further limitation, any rider of any factions may not use steeds of opposite alignments.
A mounted steed shall have an increased attack/ defence/ damage /iniative /speed. When rider of the steed is killed, the steed may still fight with its normal stats, but enraged.
This is the answer, although what about troops like cavalier or dark rider, they are already mounted so what about them eh? that system needs them to + you should have some units that cannot mount or be mounted.
Please send reply want to see your views
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 10, 2006 05:02 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 17:03, 10 Oct 2006.
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you guys are forgetting that the proposed combination idea is much more versatile than just rider+steed. Kabukiman also proposed much more interesting combinations, such as
Quote:
- ranged unit + tank = shielded ranged unit, e.g. crossbowmen + footmen = siege crossbow
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 10, 2006 07:57 PM |
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Well, I think Im not going to agree with combined creatures. I wonder how you gonna convince me...
At one side, sounds interesting, on the other there are problems with graphics and combinations and it also doesnt make much sense to me. I also think it is useless (think of morale penalties and how would your army look like...).
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted October 11, 2006 07:07 AM |
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Quote:
you guys are forgetting that the proposed combination idea is much more versatile than just rider+steed. Kabukiman also proposed much more interesting combinations, such as
Quote:
- ranged unit + tank = shielded ranged unit, e.g. crossbowmen + footmen = siege crossbow
Well it depends on your intention. By combinations, it can mean 2 things. Using examples:
1. A scout/ assassin + giant lizard = Dark raider/ Grim Raider
This is the foot and mount system that I'd propose, as it is much simpler, avoids many unlikely combinations.
2. A (same) scout/ assassin + giant lizard = lizardman
This is more like a metamorph or mutation and this creates an entirely new unit. In this way, any combinations are possible and the results will be too complicated.
Quote:
Maybe if given a more persuasive reasoning on the necessarity of it, for now I would vote no....
As to whether this idea is necessary, I do not wish to go into any sorts of philosophical arguments. The answer that I can provide is this: will you rather to upgrade a griffin to an imperial griffin, or will you prefer to train a footman to ride a griffin?
Quote:
This is the answer, although what about troops like cavalier or dark rider, they are already mounted so what about them eh? that system needs them to + you should have some units that cannot mount or be mounted.
I believe this question came with H5 as a basis. The current creature system in H5 has already been set, so there should not be any changes. If you wish to allow the possibilities of creature combinations, new system has to be implemented. But I'd feel that this will be more interesting than just purely creature upgrades.
An example of an implementable system:
A faction can be given 3 foot units and 2 mount units (one on ground and one flying), which individually can be taken to battle. Further, each of the foot units can be trained to take a mount to give a new mounted unit. This gives a total of 11 possible units with different characteristics, abilities and stats.
I have not given much thoughts on this yet, but I can see that there are a lot of problems with this particular implementation, which can be refined. But I'd like to hear the ideas that the proposer of thread is having as well. Feel free to comment.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 11, 2006 11:38 AM |
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Quote:
Well it depends on your intention. By combinations, it can mean 2 things. Using examples:
1. A scout/ assassin + giant lizard = Dark raider/ Grim Raider
This is the foot and mount system that I'd propose, as it is much simpler, avoids many unlikely combinations.
2. A (same) scout/ assassin + giant lizard = lizardman
This is more like a metamorph or mutation and this creates an entirely new unit. In this way, any combinations are possible and the results will be too complicated.
I wouldn't use the word mutation, training is much better. In heroes 5 most of factions are built around a certain race, so assasin + grim raider = dark elf who trained as both and therefore can (for example) ride a lizard and use poisoned weapons.
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 11, 2006 03:08 PM |
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Quote:
I wouldn't use the word mutation, training is much better. In heroes 5 most of factions are built around a certain race, so assasin + grim raider = dark elf who trained as both and therefore can (for example) ride a lizard and use poisoned weapons.
If you dont wanna call it mutation, how would you explain this: if you combine an assassin and grim raider and make a raider capable of poisoning, where does the other elf disappear???
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted October 11, 2006 03:15 PM |
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if you guys check the wog section,you might look for fellowship units post,prpahes thats the answer for your "creative new combining look" for monsters that you might seek?
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types in obscure english
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 11, 2006 04:55 PM |
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Looks like kabukiman is not interested in his thread so I'll post what I think it should be.
@Sindbad: What I meant was that if you have one creature (e.g. assassin) and you bring it to a town with a certain creature building (e.g. Grim rider building) you can train your creature in that building and upgrade him to something completely new (e.g. assassin rider).
@Antipaladin: I saw this thread and it's not exactly what I'm talking about.
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 11, 2006 05:45 PM |
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Ok Geny, you explained it well. But it somekinda doesnt interest me... Doesnt sound like a needed feature to me.
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted October 12, 2006 03:28 AM |
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This system can be used to replace the upgrading system, since a lot of upgrades appear to be "forced" rather than natural.
And to Geny, I meant for mutation literally. That means, apart from the mount and steed system, the two creatures are literally fused to become a new unit.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 12, 2006 01:05 PM |
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I understood what you meant, cantaresg, but mutation doesn't fit into the heroes world. The only faction that can do something like this is the necropolis.
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted October 12, 2006 01:20 PM |
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Or Academy. They did a lot of such things didn't they? Well, the problem is that it's either that or the rider+steed system. For me, I am more pro to the latter. So if you'd ask me, the rider+ steed system goes fine. But the archer + footmen = seige crossbow system will look weird under this.
And Sinbad, how about we just put aside the thought of whether this system will work out, brainstorm on this new system and see where it will end up? Just treat it an alternate system to creature upgrading.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 12, 2006 01:44 PM |
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You're right, I forgot about academy.
Can you explain the rider+steed system a bit more? Is it combining existing creatures or sort of an upgrading system?
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 12, 2006 02:57 PM |
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If you have seen the new addon of the expansion Hammers of Fate, you probably know there will be alternative upgrades to all Haven units. Why not make it available also for other factions? I completely disagree with fusioning or training so alternative upgrades could solve our problems. Is it OK?
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted October 12, 2006 07:12 PM |
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Quote:
If you have seen the new addon of the expansion Hammers of Fate, you probably know there will be alternative upgrades to all Haven units. Why not make it available also for other factions? I completely disagree with fusioning or training so alternative upgrades could solve our problems. Is it OK?
Well yes and no. yes cause it is something different than the original, but no cause this is combined creatrues so its not what were looking for, but it would be a interseting new thread to make. As the alternative upgrades was Sinbads idea i think he should do it.
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