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| Thread: The most powerful town: Averages. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted December 10, 2006 03:02 PM |
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The most powerful town: Averages.
I decided to do averages of every town.
I checked out which town is strong in what.
Let's talk about it: 
Attack:
-Academy has the most attack. Magic power is offensive, here.
-Inferno second. Logical, bacuse it's main primary skill is attack.
-Third place: Haven, Necropolic and Dungeon.
-Fourth: Sylvan, which is suppose to be defensive, so nothing new.
-And far far behind everyone: Fortress. Same reason as Sylvan.
Defence:
-Fortress leads here ofcouse. Bad offence, great defence.
-Haven second.
-Necropolic third. I'm supprised!  It's has so low HP, but a good defence? Pretty fool.
-Academy fourth.
-And why the #!*$@#^%#@@ Sylvan is 5ht? It suppose to has a good defence!
-Infrno 6th.
-Dungeon 7th...
Damage: (most interesting)
-Dungeon wins big time! Huge damage! 
-Second but just great: Academy!
-Third and good, too: Inferno.
-Haven Fourth (Who said it's does the most damage, ah? )
-Sylvan, weak here, in the 5th place.
-Awful and almost last: Fortress. Just 0.1 more damage then:
-Necropolic. OMG. Mabey it's has great abilities, but the damage... 
Next, and Important, too: Hit points.
-Dungeon is drowning in it's HP. OMG, how many?! Ofcourse, becase the Black Dragon, Hydra and the low level have also a lot of HP.
-Second, and just wonderful: Sylvan! Strong Sylvan's spot. Treats adds a lot of HP ofcouse.
-Third, but weak where it soppuse to be the first: Fortress. And it has the Magma Dragon...
-Forth, Haven. Average.
-Academy here is fifth. Not good.
-Close to Academy, Inferno. Weak spot of Inferno!! Use it wisely.
-And again, behind everyone: Necropolic. So low HP! Nacromancers are lucky that "Raise dead" spell is so powerful here.
Biggest quantity of turns. Who has the most Initiative:
-Sylvan First, known thing. Starts first in every battle.
-Second there are Haven-Inferno-Dungeon triangel.
-Neropolic is Third. All the creatures' initiative is very close to each other. About 9-11
-After Necropolic, just in 0.1 points, Fortress. Fine.
-Academy in a weak spot. Golems and Rakashaka Raja tow it down.
Speed:-Sylvan is the first place, not fur beyond everyone. Emeralld Dragon, Sprite and Silver Unicorn help.
-Dungeon Second with: Black Dragon, Grim Rider and Blood Fury that do nice job.
-Inferno is average here. Third place.
-Haven Fourth. Fine.
-Academy fifth. It has so much sooters and casters, that I even supprised it's got to sixth place. >_<
-And yet again: Fortress and Necropolic are fighting on the title of "The Slowest Snail". 
Spells mastery:
-Here, The wizards win ofcorse. Academy is first away beyond everyone else.
-Dungeon is second, Half then Academy.
-Sylvan third. Druid elder helps a lot.
-Inferno and Necropolic are fourth. In this category, evil forces are not very good.
-Haven in awful spot.
-Fortress here is pathetic. Only one caster with not very useful magics. 
Conclusion:
Academy, Sylvan and Dungeon are the most powerfull factions, accroding to the averages, When hach faction is good in other thing.
I'm sure that with good strategy you can bit them easly, I just gave to the information of how to do it.
Necropolic and Fortress are DEFINITELY the weakest factions, according to the averages.
The averages don't consider the special abilities, so I'm quite sure that if they could consider them, the picture was different.
Creatures' cost:
-Necropolic is in the first place, ofcourse. It's creatures are away cheaper then in the other factions. even if you'll add another bone dragon, with the Dragon Tombstone.
-Haven is second, with very cheap 3-6 tiers.
-Fortress third.
-Academy fourth. kind of average.
-Sylvan fifth. A little high prices, but it's defenitly manageable
-Inferno sixth, with confusing prices. The strong creatures (compared to their tier) has low prices and the average/weak has high prices.
-Dungeon seventh, and it's not that horrible. just get some gold mines (even 1-2 is enough) and you'll be just fine. 
I worked very hard, guys.
Someone asked: I took 4 hours of sitting with a calculator.
Just reply.
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted December 10, 2006 03:22 PM |
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Edited by emilsn at 15:27, 10 Dec 2006.
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Ill just ask you some questions:
1. Where did you get these numbers from?
2. I would say though you have these kind of calculations, it's all about how you use the faction. Because Necropolice just to take an examble, they rock in later game, why? skeleton archers... Fortress are okay too, slow yes. but great defense, runes that make them better... So i wouldn't count that much on those numbers
3. Good work there, how long did it take you
Good work.. 
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted December 10, 2006 03:33 PM |
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Quote:
Ill just ask you some questions:
1. Where did you get these numbers from?
2. I would say though you have these kind of calculations, it's all about how you use the faction. Because Necropolice just to take an examble, they rock in later game, why? skeleton archers... Fortress are okay too, slow yes. but great defense, runes that make them better... So i wouldn't count that much on those numbers
3. Good work there, how long did it take you
Good work..
1. I didn't took those numbers from anywhere. I calculated it.
2. I agree in 100%.
3. Oh thank you.
It took 4 hours.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 10, 2006 03:37 PM |
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I don't really think you can use the average of all the units to anything. Here are some points you need to consider:
- Average of HP doesn't make sense, because you have to include also weekly growth. Thus, if you should compare something, you should compare HP growth between factions, which is SUM (HP x Growth). Thus, Dungeon low-level creatures have lots of HP for sure, but the growth rate of Assassin is only 7 (!), whereas most other factions have growth rates around 20.
- Averages of Attack and Defence doesn't tell you anything about how usefull units are. For instance, one faction could have two units with average Attack and Defence. Anohter faction could have one units with really good Attack, poor Defence and no retaliation ability, and another unit with really good Defence and loads of HP, but very low Attack and Damage. On average, the city with the two units with average stats might come out with the best numbers, but obviously, the other city is much better off, because it specializes in the important properties on each unit - thus, high Attack + No Retaliation easily makes up for poor defence, and high Defence + high HP means a good unit, even though it's got crappy attack (Treant!).
- Initiative is a property, where average doesn't give an impression of quality. In most cases, it will be better to have an offensive unit with high Initiative and a deffensive one with low Initiative, than it will be to have two units with average score.
- Damage: Again, you have to consider not only Damage, but Damage growth = SUM (Damage x Growth). Also, some units have a very wide damage range, which leave them vulnerable to Cursing spells (but also susceptible to Blessings!), whereas others have very steady damage. The one or the other might be an advantage, depending on your hero class and your opponent class.
- Mana amount: There is a huge difference between offensive casters and deffensive casters. For instance, the Mage and the Druid use offensive spells, which is much more worthwile than the Inquisitor, that uses deffensive spells. Therefore, the total amount of Mana available to the faction does not give an impression of the amount of "spellpower" available. For instance, Dungeon comes out with a good score, but the only caster available to Dungeon is the Shadow Witch, that has pretty useless spells compared to for instance the Druid (lightning bolt rocks).
And lastly: You HAVE to consider specials. Sure, Fortress is the slowest snail ... but wait, try to use a Rune of Charge! Oooop, and you Magma Dragon has its speed doubled from 5 to 10!
So, on the bottom line: I can't really see this analysis to give any true picture of the faction strength. You cannot compare just one property without taking all the others into account, when you want to asses the strength of a creature or a faction.
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Post #1000.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted December 10, 2006 03:59 PM |
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You are half right. 
Statisticly, average initiative shows who playes more at the combat.
And, for example, Sylvan realy plays the most turns in the combat.
You are wrong when you say that defensive unit don't need so much turns as offensive unit.
I have no time to unswer anything you said but I have so to say are just over critical.
You did it to a lot of people, and I'm sorry for saying that, but you have to be a little bit more nice and gentle.
Personaly, I don't take offend very very seriously.
But sometimes, you can realy hurt people.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 10, 2006 04:15 PM |
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Well, some forumers seem to mistake criticism for offense. I'm critical, yes, but I generally don't offend people. When someone offer an idea or oppinion to the board, I will give them my (honest) oppinion, because that's the purpose of this, at least as I see it. If they want someone to pad them on the shoulder, well ...
And if some of the forumers here become offended, when I disagree with their posts, well, that's just too bad for them. Criticism is ment as a means for improvement, and when I point out a weakness in a post, I don't do it to make anybody feel bad, but to provide some input as to how they could make it better.
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And yes, the numbers are true. I don't think there's anything wrong with your calculations. I just don't think that tells you anything about relative strength between the factions.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted December 10, 2006 05:02 PM |
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Quote:
I don't really think you can use the average of all the units to anything.
I agree with alcibiades
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted December 10, 2006 06:08 PM |
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IMHO, The necropolis is one of the best factions, when you combine its prolific growth rate with its Necromancy ability.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted December 10, 2006 06:54 PM |
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Geez, not again.
First, good job with your hard work! I'm really impressed. Geez, if I had your will to work @ my chemistry..
Second, it's all wrong 
I'm gonna repeat once more: You'll NEVER draw any conclusions by comparing those funny numbers called "attack", "defence" and so on. It's just plain WRONG. And please, count growth as Alcibiades suggests, because the HP score is totally wrong: Dungeon is among the WEAKEST towns in total HP/week, not the BEST >_>
Those numbers say i.e. inferno is rubbish, which is supreme idiocy, because of a) inferno's best hero in the game (imo), b) second most useful racial only to training c) One of the best specials of the units. A competetive inferno player will mop the floor with sylvan or dungeon's "uber" army - that's where THEIR racials come to play, along with spells and such, to balance it out. Creatures strength means NOTHING Please, don't do the same mistake by judging the initiative or other misleading stats and saying "oh my dungeon creatures are so leet and uber".
We after all know very well that haven owns all ;p
Well, anyway, respect. Regards.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted December 10, 2006 07:22 PM |
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Hey guys, I didn't say this information is useful.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 10, 2006 08:24 PM |
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Useful it is for some reasons excluding the purpose for which you made it Good work though
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted December 11, 2006 01:00 PM |
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Couldn't it be usefull in the way of this: you get the average of the towns abilities? You know, their average attack and such? so its not usefull to tell what is the best town in each "ability" but more in the abilities of the town itself
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted December 11, 2006 05:06 PM |
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Thank guys.
Mabey I should add something about the special abilities.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 11, 2006 05:14 PM |
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Just one unit having superior stats to the others of its tier(not hampered by less growth) can cause unpredictable results in the overall strength of a town.You can't draw conclusions.
Of the first things you learn in statistics is that the average of some figures is rarely showing the overall state of the sample.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted December 11, 2006 06:22 PM |
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Quote:
Just one unit having superior stats to the others of its tier(not hampered by less growth) can cause unpredictable results in the overall strength of a town.You can't draw conclusions.
Of the first things you learn in statistics is that the average of some figures is rarely showing the overall state of the sample.
I guess that was an answer to me , so i say: Okay, well just wanted to ask
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 11, 2006 08:27 PM |
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Maths can be tricky I should know,I never was particularly good at them
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 12, 2006 09:50 AM |
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Actually, you could make an analysis of averages that would work. You just have to do the math differently:
- For each unit of each faction, calculate ratio of relevant property to average of same level - for instance:
AR = Attack / [Average of Attack of all units of that level]
DGR = Damage Growth / [Average of Damage Growth of all units of that level]
- For each faction, calculate average AND SPREAD of relative numbers for all units. Thus:
DungeonAR = (AR_assassin + AR_bloodfury + AR_minotaur + ...) / 7
If each number comes out with an average AND SPREAD larger or smaller than 1, this tells you that the faction is overall stronger or weaker than the average town on this attribute.
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hellwitch
Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
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posted December 12, 2006 02:28 PM |
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well wrong again. Why all of you count the full population when you can't buy it most of the time. The price in money and resources must be counted too.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted December 12, 2006 02:30 PM |
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Quote:
well wrong again. Why all of you count the full population when you can't buy it most of the time. The price in money and resources must be counted too.
I'll add it.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted December 12, 2006 02:54 PM |
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Quote:
well wrong again. Why all of you count the full population when you can't buy it most of the time. The price in money and resources must be counted too.
You can't buy it "most" of the time?!?!?!?!? ONly tier 7s are over the budget, believe it or not. Sure there are also buildings, but there are also Gold mines and treasures. Let's count with a Capitol that makes 4000 gold per day.. this means 28000 gold per week! Inferno (without Arch Devils) only requires 21482 gold per week population. Add the Devils (unupgraded) here who add up to 28814. A bit over the budget, of course there are also Arch Devils... but WHY buy the WHOLE population with ONLY the Caption, man?!? What are Gold mines used for? Or treasures??
So, at least in my opinion, money is plenty... Growth limits your "Army-building" strategies. Simple with some math. (you can also trade resources, btw... and the resource silo provides enough money for the tier 7s, trust me.. do some math and see for yourself).
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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