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| Thread: Homeless People |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Aculias
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posted January 12, 2007 01:35 AM |
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You misunderstand of course Lith.
I am talking about the human mind.
Religion is a hugh part of being good or bad.
People think it is good to help the less fortunate & a good part of WHY it is good because of religion.
What is right & wrong?
Hiw do you even know if it's right or wrong?
Christian & catholics say it is right so therefore it must be right in the hearts of many.
Otherwise you tell me Lith how you would know if it's actually right or not?
Better yet!
Tell me why people on here say it is right?
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Lith-Maethor
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posted January 12, 2007 01:45 AM |
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*cracks neck*
there is a good chance this will derail the discussion completely, but i just can't let this go...
your first mistake is that you define religion as christianity... in reality, some religions have so radically different beliefs and moral codes that to you they would seem alien
ignoring this, you say it is right because religion says it is... religion states a number of things that would be considered attrocities by most civilized cultures in the world we live today, yet the faithful choose to ignore those parts, or retcon the problematic parts to fit the reality of today
you DO however bring a very good point... for the faithful, something IS right because religion says so... yet, even here we have alterior motive... i will use christianity as an example: people are good either to go to heaven when they die (talk about major reward), not to go to hell when they die (and thus escape lots of suffering) or because it makes them feel good to do what their beliefs dictate (which brings us back to what woock said)
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Rage08
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posted January 12, 2007 01:49 AM |
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I have pondered about the same things myself...
Why should there be laws for things when nobody really has the right to make a judgement of what is right and wrong? I think that time has been a large factor in everything. Over the course of so many generations we've just slowly grew into the world we are today. And there are so many things with this generation that irritate me beyond belief. But what can you do right? It feels good to talk about all these things, because everybody believes they have the right point of view. I suppose the most we can do is for ourselves and maybe the ones that are close to us or that we love. I mean I can do everything in my power to try and bring down the law system, but if I am not united with a large enough amount of people, then really my actions do so damn little in the grand scheme of things. I could also argue until I'm blue in the face about all my points of view, but if people do not understand them, then again the most I can do is for myself. At the end of the day it would seem that these things we do really are because they make us feel good. I find it a little ridiculous how I just read an argument where basically both sides are saying the same thing, but neither side wants to change their point of view.
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Aculias
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posted January 12, 2007 02:24 AM |
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You got a point there.
Many religions do have dif beliefs.
REGARDLEZSS though.
It dont change the person on what they believe in.
Some think it's right to help others in need & some think the strong will prevail.
Now that I think about it when i made that statement.
Religion is the main reason for these feelings.
Think about it, your raised up to believe in certain aspects in life.
Religion tells you if it is right to help others or Kamikaze on US soil.
It's all based down on religion.
Even though this is just a matter of helping people in need.
Is it right or not.
Religion tells people if it is.
It's just up to you as a person who grows up with whatever religion you are & to follow your religion or no.
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william
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LummoxLewis
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posted January 12, 2007 03:34 AM |
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You immediately make that decision, without considering it. However, imagine if you didn't give him any money. You would probably feel guilty and wish you did.
Some people are not like this, they simply walk past the homeless man and don't give him money, not feeling guilty whatsoever.
Why?
Because they are selfish, ignorant people, who only care about themselves, and most likely look down on those that are poorer then themselves.
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As is encoded in your humanity. You want to improve the lot of your species. Thus, you want to help.
Isnt humanity equalling all humans?
That would mean that all humans would want to improve our species, but not all people are like that, thus killing, murder, wars and all that start.
They are destroying instead of creating, and that aint helping.
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Of course. You want to help your fellow human because he is your fellow human. He is the same (or very similar) to you. You want to help your speicies survive. This may make you feel good if you conciously make the decision to help, and it happens automatically (for you) (without making you feel good, but avoiding a guilt trip) if you make the decision subconsiously.
No like I said in my last comment not everyone wants us to survive.
Hitler, now he killed so many people, and all were similar to himself, in that they were human.
Not everyone wants to help, and not everyone wants to help thier fellow human.
I wanna help my fellow human, cos it is the right thing to do, but that doesnt apply to everyone.
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Many would sacrifice their lives to save a greater amount of lives, as this would, though they might not realize it, help the survival of the human race.
I could agree with that.
Do you mean like if I was a father, and some psycho was gonna choose to kill me or my family, and I choose myself to die, and then he would spare my family.
That would be sacraficing my life to save an even greater amount of lives.
Coreect?
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It isn't always a net positive. However, you still do it because you, for lack of a better word, are programmed to do it in your genetic code.
That, again, does not apply to every human being.
If it did, then all people would be helping and there would be probably no homeless people.
I am referring to you saying "programmed to do it in your genetic code".
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Humans are no different from animals. However, "persons" are. Humans, essentially, consider the so-called moral (until I find a better term for it) choice (I say "so-called" because I argue that morality is simply a collection of different factors of various origins, from religion (in humans) to the basic survival of the self (basic living things), the pack (wolves), or the species (humans). Of course, sometimes the actions end up hurting the species) "Persons", on the other hand, logically consider the choices and regard the benefit of the species as a factor of personal benefit.
We are all animals we can just do things differently.
For starter's we can think, have dreams, reason, etc etc.
Person's are humans, therefore making them no different from animal's.
If a person has two legs, can think, reason, communicate and all that, then it is a human.
But perhaps the mentally disabled are "barred" from such things as reasoning properly, although they can reason they just cannot do it as well as some people that have no problems at all, and I do not mean to offend those that are mentally disabled in any way, shape or form.
I greatly admire the mentally disabled, they are great humans, and they are just like us, I do not see them as not being a person or something like that.
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Criminals, most often, end up hurting their lives more often than improving it. Animals do not engage in such behavior, at least not conciously. Most animals perform actions that benefit the self, sometimes at the expense of the species. Most humans act to benefit the species without concious thought, though they often harm it. "Persons" benefit the species to benefit themselves.
Well Criminals might not know they hurt their lives, they are only doing what they think is right, or perhaps to try and impress people, or doing it to get money.
Most Animals in my opinion do things that will benefit themselves and family and friends, well they try and do things that can help other things, aswell as themselves.
Person's are humans, like I have said before.
If I am not a person, then what am I? An Alien?  joking
That's all I can say on the matter.
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mvassilev
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posted January 12, 2007 04:29 AM |
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you will be surprised to find out that 99% of what an animal does benefits the species more than it benefits the individual ...prime example of that, wounded animals breaking away from the herd/pack not to slow the rest down,
Many animals don't have herds. I'm pretty sure that a large majority of animals are solitary, meeting others only to mate.
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Some people are not like this, they simply walk past the homeless man and don't give him money, not feeling guilty whatsoever.
Why?
Because they are selfish, ignorant people, who only care about themselves, and most likely look down on those that are poorer then themselves.
In other words, these selfish people have decided (whether conciously or unconciously) that only helping themselves would serve them best, thus following their genetic code.
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Isnt humanity equalling all humans?
All, or, probably, most.
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That would mean that all humans would want to improve our species, but not all people are like that, thus killing, murder, wars and all that start.
They are destroying instead of creating, and that aint helping.
Yes. These people think that helping themselves only is the best way, although it is concievable to murder for "morality", for religion, or for your family.
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No like I said in my last comment not everyone wants us to survive.
Hitler, now he killed so many people, and all were similar to himself, in that they were human.
Hitler was improving his situation, or attempting to keep it from getting worse. He wanted to become powerful, and manipulated people and their beliefs until he did. Then he had to stay in power. Thus, his actions.
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I wanna help my fellow human, cos it is the right thing to do,
As is written in your genetic code. However, helping others is helping yourself, in many ways. By improving the survival of the species, the original idea is that it would help you pass on your genes and also aid in your survival. Of course, it has spun out of control (not in a negative way), such as in the burning oprphanage case.
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Do you mean like if I was a father, and some psycho was gonna choose to kill me or my family, and I choose myself to die, and then he would spare my family.
That would be sacraficing my life to save an even greater amount of lives.
Coreect?
Correct.
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That, again, does not apply to every human being.
If it did, then all people would be helping and there would be probably no homeless people.
I am referring to you saying "programmed to do it in your genetic code".
Remember, the part about helping others is merely a part of helping yourself.
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For starter's we can think, have dreams, reason, etc etc.
Even dogs have dreams. They twitch while they sleep sometimes. Not all humans can reason.
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If a person has two legs, can think, reason, communicate and all that, then it is a human.
So you think that a war veteran who got his legs blown off isn't human? BTW, remember that humans are the only animals who have wars. You might think it impedes survival, but this is actually putting the survival of the pack ahead of the survival of the species, and nothing more.
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But perhaps the mentally disabled are "barred" from such things as reasoning properly, although they can reason they just cannot do it as well as some people that have no problems at all
The severely mentally disabled cannot reason. They can make animal-like connections between events. The slightly mentally disabled can only reason poorly.
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I greatly admire the mentally disabled, they are great humans, and they are just like us, I do not see them as not being a person or something like that.
Remember what I said about humans and "persons" in the Abortion thread.
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Well Criminals might not know they hurt their lives
Criminals are sometimes insane. However, I am talking about, say, someone who kills everyone who annoys them. Sure, this person would have the benefit of no one annoying them, but they would also have the consequence of being put in jail, or executed.
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Most Animals in my opinion do things that will benefit themselves and family and friends
Most animals don't have friends. Only the highly evolved, such as, perhaps, dogs, and the very highly evolved, such as humans, have friends.
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Person's are humans, like I have said before.
"Persons" (in quotation marks) do not necessarily have to be humans. They just all happen to be humans at the moment. "Persons" can reason properly, and can conciously squelch their genetic programming at times. Humans are merely Homo Sapiens.
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william
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LummoxLewis
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posted January 12, 2007 05:01 AM |
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In other words, these selfish people have decided (whether conciously or unconciously) that only helping themselves would serve them best, thus following their genetic code.
I tend to disagree, these selfish people have decided not to help themselves or the homeless man.
You could however say that perhaps if the selfish person doesnt want to help the homeless because he is in a rush, or if he was to give money to the homeless, he might decide not to give because he might need it for himself or for his family.
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All, or, probably, most.
Thought so.
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As is written in your genetic code. However, helping others is helping yourself, in many ways. By improving the survival of the species, the original idea is that it would help you pass on your genes and also aid in your survival. Of course, it has spun out of control (not in a negative way), such as in the burning oprphanage case.
My genetic code has got nothing to do with it, it is called free will, we choose to help or not to help.
If my genetic code is like for example, helping other's because I am a really nice guy and all that, free will, will then kick in, and I can choose to not help.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted January 12, 2007 08:33 AM |
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words, deaf ears... insert gravity
@Aculias:
you fail to grasp a simple truth... personal code of beliefs (moral code, if you like) is a matter of philosophy, not religion ...its one thing to say "helping others is good because i've been told Jesus said it and i agree with him" and a whole different thing to say "helping others is good because Jesus, the son of God, said it" ...the latter leaves you open for comebacks along the lines of "well, the Easter Bunny told me that helping others is bad, when we were playing poker with Santa and the Tooth Fairy" ...yes, that is about how much validity religion will give you
@william:
each of us, has a set of instincts, the product of evolution and living on this little blue rock as a species for as long as we have ...there is no exception... every single one of us has them... some of them are obvious... we want to eat when hungry, sleep when tired, seek shelter when needed ...and hump like rabbits for recreation and procreation (on a sidenote, dolphins are the only species besides humans to have sex for the fun of it... and i believe they rank #2 on the intelligence board, behind us... well, most of us - as Woock pointed out, Bonobo chimps are in the group... but they border on nymphomania, using sex to resolve all problems) in general, do stuff that makes things better for us ...others, are a bit more complicated, but also found in "lesser" beings... we do things to improve life for our pack, our herd, our fellow human (and no, mvass... most animals operate in some sort of group, its just that some of them have larger groups than others)
you, based on your personal set of beliefs, are more likely to define the two sets as "practical" and "moral" ...it doesn't really change them, but it gives you a way to feel better about yourself... in fact, to feel better than those lowly beasts when in fact you are more similar than you feel comfortable to admit ...it gives you the moral high ground, so to speak ...the right to feel superior to those that do not make the choices you make, to label them animals ...as they are likely to label you sheep, doing pretty much the same thing from their point of you ...truth is however, that good and evil, or if you prefer, right and wrong, ARE in your genetic code, as behaviour patters (this was discovered fairly recently, if not mistaken)
@both:
how someone grows up plays a major role in what kind of decisions he/she will make later on in life... religion, philosophy, friends and family, rolemodels, ideas, society as a whole, all put another piece of the puzzle in, tilting the scales towards "practical" or "moral" ...in most cases, we do not seem to think twice and the choice is made subconsciously ...but it is made all the same, the process is part of what we call... free will ...it all comes down to how you feel more comfortable... with a moral highground of practical, or moral ...kinda like choosing your drink, or coffee, i guess, but on a larger scale
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mvassilev
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posted January 12, 2007 02:12 PM |
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Quote:
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In other words, these selfish people have decided (whether conciously or unconciously) that only helping themselves would serve them best, thus following their genetic code.
I tend to disagree, these selfish people have decided not to help themselves or the homeless man.
No. These selfish people have decided to help themselves by keeping their money.
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As is written in your genetic code. However, helping others is helping yourself, in many ways. By improving the survival of the species, the original idea is that it would help you pass on your genes and also aid in your survival. Of course, it has spun out of control (not in a negative way), such as in the burning oprphanage case.
My genetic code has got nothing to do with it, it is called free will, we choose to help or not to help.
There is no such thing as free will. Everything is no more than the interactions of atoms. Your genetic code tells you to act in a certain manner, such as helping your species, so you do.
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If my genetic code is like for example, helping other's because I am a really nice guy and all that, free will, will then kick in, and I can choose to not help.
No. If your "free will" kicks in and you choose not to help, you don't have the genetic code of a "nice guy". Of course, your so-called free will is just part of the genetic code.
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william
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LummoxLewis
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posted January 12, 2007 02:53 PM |
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No free will, that's a real big laugh hahaha.
Free will is what we choose to do, be it right or wrong, good or bad.
Free will is with everyone, and isnt necassarily part of Genetic Code.
I can't believe you would even say that there is no such thing as Free will lol.
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Lord_Woock
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posted January 12, 2007 04:47 PM |
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Now, see here, William.
Just because a statement seems absurd at first glance doesn't mean that it is necessarily false. Contemplate the subject instead of laughing at Mvass for suggesting that free will may not exist.
In fact, christian beliefs (with which some of you support your statements against the pro-self concept) help to prove the lack of free will.
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Aculias
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posted January 12, 2007 05:51 PM |
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Personal code is your own choice of believing what you want to believe.
From how you were raised or learning from your own exp.
Religion is more harsh.
Depending on what religion your are.
People are forced to believe in certain rights.
WHo really knows whats right & what is wrong in that matter though.
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Corribus
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posted January 12, 2007 05:57 PM |
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Quote:
@Aculias:
you fail to grasp a simple truth... personal code of beliefs (moral code, if you like) is a matter of philosophy, not religion ...its one thing to say "helping others is good because i've been told Jesus said it and i agree with him" and a whole different thing to say "helping others is good because Jesus, the son of God, said it" ...the latter leaves you open for comebacks along the lines of "well, the Easter Bunny told me that helping others is bad, when we were playing poker with Santa and the Tooth Fairy" ...yes, that is about how much validity religion will give you
A lot of good stuff has been said. I'm sorry I cannot reply to all of it. mvassilev at least starts making sense, though there is much he says that I don't agree with, at least in the extremity that he says it. I think his viewpoint and mine are not so separate after all, but I disagree with his contention that we are programmed to act in certain ways and that tehre is no free will.
But, I want to comment on the above quote by Lith. I think this is an unfair assessment of the role of religion. Whether you believe in God or not, you cannot dispute the role that religion has on society. Many would argue that society's laws are in many ways molded off of religious laws. In the US, our laws were written by Christian men, who based their laws off of morals that were taught by Christian leaders (for millenia) in accordance with what they believed was Gods laws. In other words, many peoples' philosophy IS their religion. I don't think philosophy and religion have to be two separate things.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted January 12, 2007 06:26 PM |
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corribus...
two points here, then we can go back on topic:
first of all, i did say that religion DOES play a part, you should read all that was written
second, the US of A were founded not by christians but by people that wanted to keep church and state apart and had quite different views from what people might think today... the fact those that came after them used religion as an excuse to justify laws and policies is irrelevant... please learn more about the history of your own country before using it to prove a point 
for more on the philosophy-religion division, read this third post (yes, by me)
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Aculias
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posted January 12, 2007 06:39 PM |
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No you said we have to believe in the Easter bunny
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Corribus
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posted January 12, 2007 06:41 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 18:43, 12 Jan 2007.
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two points here, then we can go back on topic:
first of all, i did say that religion DOES play a part, you should read all that was written
second, the US of A were founded not by christians but by people that wanted to keep church and state apart and had quite different views from what people might think today... the fact those that came after them used religion as an excuse to justify laws and policies is irrelevant... please learn more about the history of your own country before using it to prove a point
I'm sorry, my post was obviously not very clearly written.
I did not mean to make the implication that you did not understand that religion plays a part in society. I was setting up the rest of my paragraph.
Also, I did not mean to imply that religion was intended to be an essential part of our laws. You are right, the men who founded this country strived to separate religion from government. What I meant to convey is that the character of the laws is derived from people who had a Christian background. Thus, while the law was set up to be secular in nature, it nevertheless was colored by morals that were - at least in part - determined from Christian religious doctrine, handed down for the better part of two millenia (and that derived from Hebrew morals, handed down for three or so more). Overall my point is that even if you are an atheist, your moral framework is probably in some way determined by religious ideals. Obviously not your own - but by the religion of your parents, who were taught by their parents, and etc..
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Lith-Maethor
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posted January 12, 2007 06:46 PM |
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much better
still however, you assume that all religions support the same moral codes and that all cultures are the same... you will find that thankfully, this is not the case... while most western countries are tinted by christianity, there is also a part of the world where for thousands of years, christianity or the god of abraham was not even a fairytale of a distant land... and you know what? they came up with a set of beliefs (a philosophy more than a religion) that is arguably more moral than the western counterpart
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Corribus
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posted January 12, 2007 07:11 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 19:11, 12 Jan 2007.
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still however, you assume that all religions support the same moral codes and that all cultures are the same... you will find that thankfully, this is not the case... while most western countries are tinted by christianity, there is also a part of the world where for thousands of years, christianity or the god of abraham was not even a fairytale of a distant land... and you know what? they came up with a set of beliefs (a philosophy more than a religion) that is arguably more moral than the western counterpart
I don't make that assumption. Undoubtedly your statement is correct. In fact, ironicaly, because different cultures have different moral frameworks - generated predominantly by different religions or philosophies, though I'm not sure those two terms are easily separable - this causes much strife in the world. The point is that I don't think our moral alignment is "hard coded in our genes" as mvassilev stated in so many words. I think it's basic conditioning - from our parents, or respective cultures, etc., deriving mostly from religion (or philosophy, whatever). The question is - why DO we have the capacity to create systems of morals?
But let me go back to something mvassilev said earlier:
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And IS there such a thing as a purely moral judgement (a judgement that is supposedly morally right, but benefits no one)? Or are all "moral" judgements done for the benefit of the species?
I think this is a great question. If the answer to the second question is yes, then it's sort of an emotional/mental/spiritual counterpart to evolution. If the answer to the first question is yes, then what is the origin of the moral judgement? While I think there's an element of truth to the statement that systems of morals were created (whether consciously or unconconsciously) to benefit the species, I feel that cannot be the end of it.
Religion of course does play a role. Naturally, if you say "I do good because God says to." You could argue that that is just an extension of the same thing, because God would be telling you that in order to benefit the species.
But such an argument of benefitting the species also seems to neglect the spiritual aspect of emotion, such as love. If I give up my life to safe the life of someone else (say, my wife), what is the motivation for that? How does that really benefit the species as a whole? Also, another example to think about: People who are against capital punishment - certainly killing criminals could be perceived as benefitting the species, but many people argue that capital punishment is wrong because killing is wrong. Doesn't that go against the "improving the species" theory?
It is funny, my opinion on this is evolving as the discussion evolves. I keep changing my mind. I guess that just shows it's a difficult topic with no clear answer. But it's a fun discussion.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted January 13, 2007 03:42 AM |
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fun discussion indeed
philosphy and religion SHOULD be easily separable... "be nice to your fellow man" is not the same as "Zeus will toss a lightning on your head" or "there is a father figure up in the clouds watching over you" ...religion is by its nature supernatural, as history teaches us, today's religion is tomorrow's mythology ...as humanity advances, we leave old systems of belief behind, or reduce them to just fluff that makes us feel good (for example, we know that lightning is not the result of a horny old man getting pissed off at you, science has explained it)
if you read the replies before you, you'd see that humans are capable of doing the most noble thing AND the worst attrocity... it's all in there, generally, the first is answering to our instincts of "improving life for the species" while the latter is "improving life for self" ...conditioning can and does plays a vital role in the process of choosing which way to go (which is what free will is) ...but if conditioning was everything, nobody would change religion, philosophy, or way of life
we create systems of morals because society works best when there is such a system in play... peer pressure in a way, it minimizes threats to the species from within... but there is a problem here, right? ...what about religion-based genocide? ...what about beliefs so extreme and intolerant that cause far more harm than good? ...those cases are no different from someone going on a killing spree or say, taking hostages ...its following either side of our instincts to the extreme ...and extremes are dangerous
for me, and i guess for the rest on "my" side of the argument, all "moral" judgements are done for the benefit of the species, in one way or the other ...after all, even love is a way to ensure one sticks close to his/her mate at least as long as it takes for the children to grow up (yeah yeah, in a perfect world anyway) ...your opinion is evolving, as is the species ...which, is why we give added weight on the "moral" side of the instincts and why we exalt feelings such as love and self sacrifice... which is a good thing, if you ask me
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mvassilev
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posted January 13, 2007 04:30 AM |
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No free will, that's a real big laugh hahaha.
Free will is what we choose to do, be it right or wrong, good or bad.
There is no such thing as choice, IMO. If some of your molecules combine in a certain way, you do one thing. If it is in another way, you will do another thing. Of course, these reactions spawn other reactions with multiple possible outcomes, so the possibilities are nearly endless, but no one has any say about what happens.
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Whether you believe in God or not, you cannot dispute the role that religion has on society.
Of course. That is undeniable. The morality spawned by the will to survive spawned a shamanistic religion that eventually grew to control the tribe, for everyone believed that the gods could smite them for wrongdoing. Eventually, religion became more complex, and so did the rest of society.
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The point is that I don't think our moral alignment is "hard coded in our genes" as mvassilev stated in so many words
Oh, it's not "hard-coded" by any means. And everyone has different genes. There are varying degrees of codedness (not a word) inside our genes, and they often come in conflict. The same genetic code, even, can present itself in a very different manner, depending on the environment. For example, if a man who gained massive amounts of pleasure from slaughter of humans (which is, incidentally, a mutation that is harmful to the specie, and, due to our society, to the man) is brought up in a cannibalistc society, he might slaughter his whole tribe and eat it, even if there was plenty of non-human food available. If a man with the same genes is brought up in, say, a Nazi household, this man could operate the gas chambers. If this man would be brought up in a God-fearing Christian fundamentalist family, he could become a crusader.
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But such an argument of benefitting the species also seems to neglect the spiritual aspect of emotion, such as love.
Love is simply a feeling caused by certain chemicals in your body in certain situations. Love originated as an encouragement to have a mate and protect it and your children, instead of producing children, then leaving them to fend for themselves. The way with "love" allows the species to survive better by increasing the chances of survival of all children.
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If I give up my life to safe the life of someone else (say, my wife), what is the motivation for that? How does that really benefit the species as a whole?
Sometimes, our genes' content ends up contradicting the original purpose of the gene.
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Also, another example to think about: People who are against capital punishment - certainly killing criminals could be perceived as benefitting the species, but many people argue that capital punishment is wrong because killing is wrong.
This is simply morality which has evolved beyond its original bounds.
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Doesn't that go against the "improving the species" theory?
Most do not conciously improve the species.
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Eccentric Opinion
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