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| Thread: Ultimate Creature Chart! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted January 16, 2007 06:34 PM |
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Along with damage/per, it would also be cool to see damage/$. You may have the sweetest troop potential imaginable, but if you can't recruit them you've got nothing.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted January 16, 2007 07:16 PM |
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I broke down the chart even more for further analysis. Again there are a lot of factors that this doesn't include ($, initiative, creature specials, heroes, creeping, building cost...) so it doesn't say anything conclusive about the factions. I just averaged the creatures destroyability and survivability from the chart above (leaving out spells, faction specializations, heroes, and artifacts) because they are too variable (if you figure training, and necromany, you also need to factor gating, favored enemy, empowered lucky elemental chains, runes, and mini artifacts... and that chore seems a bit daunting for me). The first number is the total damage/ weekly growth, the socond number is the average suvivability of that faction.
Haven
746, 71%
Necro
785, 70%
Sylvan
747, 62%
Inferno
707, 65%
Dungeon
718, 65%
Academy
831, 73%
Fortress
566, 77%
I'll leave the interpretation up to you, but Academy and Necro don't look as bad as they are often described.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 16, 2007 07:32 PM |
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Quote:
I broke down the chart even more for further analysis. Again there are a lot of factors that this doesn't include ($, initiative, creature specials, heroes, creeping, building cost...) so it doesn't say anything conclusive about the factions.
Because it's MEANT not to say anything conclusive about the factions. Come on, you cannot judge whether the faction suits you or not by looking on a column of soulless numbers.. 
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted January 16, 2007 07:45 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I broke down the chart even more for further analysis. Again there are a lot of factors that this doesn't include ($, initiative, creature specials, heroes, creeping, building cost...) so it doesn't say anything conclusive about the factions.
Because it's MEANT not to say anything conclusive about the factions. Come on, you cannot judge whether the faction suits you or not by looking on a column of soulless numbers..
Yeah I know, that's what I'm saying. You sound defensive, like I am criticizing your chart. I'm not, I'm just reiterating the caution of not making too much out of my summary chart. A professor once told me that there are three types of lies... lies, damn lies, and statistics. Chartmakers like you and myself enjoy developing and pondering charts. However there always seem to be some people who become wowed by a few numbers and make conclusive statements about factions that are far from certain. As chart makers its our responsibilty to present as neutral interpretation as possible. Displaying a faction specific ability (like training or necromancy) and stating that that faction is imbalanced while leaving out all the other faction abilities and primary strenghts promotes an agenda (nerf Haven) under the guise of neutrality (just making a chart). Ok that last part was definately criticizing your chart, but my previous statement seriously was not.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 17, 2007 08:16 AM |
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Hah, no prob
I put haven here because I was curious myself how hard can they strike.. and since I like necro pretty much, I wanted to see how the skellie archers perform compared with marksmen. So, yes, my chart is corrupted with my own personal tastes. Too bad the evil part of my personality says "and so what? That's how I wanted it to see  " 
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 17, 2007 10:43 AM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 10:44, 17 Jan 2007.
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Quote:
rarely you can build, say, shadow dragons earlier than after 4-5 weeks on non-rich map
 rarely?
Well actually in my last game (the Land of Outcasts FFA with 3 of my friends, remember?), I just got Green Dragons at week 3! Believe it or not, there was only 1 pile of crystals, with 3 on it. However, there was also that nasty Mystic Pond which helped a lot, though, but I wouldn't really call that map "ultra-rich", can you?
You can believe me or not, but I have no reason to lie to you, and don't want to argue with you about this.. but I got Dragons (+ all other dwellings, of course) at week 3. (at hard diff)
If you want, here's a short summary:
Week 1: Captured Sawmill & Ore Pit.. not much taken in this week, just rambling about the base, creeping some tier 1s, etc. In this week I built dwellings for Pixies, Blade Dancers, Hunters AND Druids (possible in this map, 'cause you start with a Fort & Tavern ).
Week 2: Went to the Crypt, defeated some nearby tier 3s, Dolmen of Knowledges, then built dwelling for Treants. Went to Gem mine, defeated Grim Riders there, went to Crystal Cavern, defeated Vampire Lords lurking near it.. all these with no losses thanks to Treants. Finally went to Sulfur deposit (alchemist lab was far away, and I didn't need it, there were so many mercury piles...). I also forgot that I also built the Castle within this week!
Last dwelling in this week was Unicorns..
Week 3: I can't remember exactly what I have done in this week, probably just creeping, or recruiting stuff.. but all I can tell you is that the Dragon dwelling was built in THIS week.
What is stranger than dragons at week 3 is the 600 marksmen at week 6.. You can have only 450 marksmen at week 6.. of course, without a "common" () second castle, which means, by the way, a RICH map (2 towns = rich). And that's just Sub. treasures
P.S: At that game I had a problem with cash, especially due to the high number of heroes I recruited (for their armies, obviously). I took gold from them, as I usually do 
The difference between me and you here is that I don't see it as a "rule", that cannot be broken, instead just an option of which might be better at the moment. Since I had problems with gold, I went for gold
Hope this makes it clear that Dragons are possible.. it's from my own experience. Other maps like Mystic's Vale are even easier to get, because the mines are guarded by tier 3s, as most maps are (at least I think so). Try it yourself sometime
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 17, 2007 11:49 AM |
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did you had level 5 guild aswell? Well, I doubt it  And guilds have higher priority than dragons for most warlocks (except for weird, might-orientated ones, relying on power-of-endurace-like skills). I always end up without black dragons no matter how hard I try to explore the map.
And that annoys me so much, the black dragons are sooo beautiful in this game. First dragons after heroes 2 that seem appealing to me!
So, there's the choice: blackies or implosion/meteor shower..
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 17, 2007 12:02 PM |
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Actually you're right, with Guilds (lvl 5) you'll need 11 more crystal/sulfur (main problems for warlock).
BUT: this means you'll have Dragons on week... 4 (the next week).
I know 11 is more than a mine does in 1 week, but who needs level 5?? Implosion sucks, the weakest spell there is (due to it's high mana cost), much more powerful are Meteor Shower or Fireball, etc..
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 27, 2007 03:59 PM |
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Ok, I've updated the chart to 1.41/2.1 training standards and added all hero specialists. Enjoy ;p
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 27, 2007 04:08 PM |
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Cool  finally it's complete
ps: is there any way to add some initiative stuff in the damage? I know it will be a rough approximation, but I would like to see that because right now Conscripts do some damage, but poor init...
One way I found out to do it would be to multiply the damage with Initiative/10. For example, for familiars you would multiply by 1.3, and for steel golems by 0.7.
I know it's not the same thing, but it is a rough approximation at least. What do you think about it?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 27, 2007 04:18 PM |
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I can try.. Well, I still don't know how initiative works _exactly_. Gotta read the manual and maybe I'll add some dam/init value too.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 27, 2007 05:05 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 17:07, 27 Jan 2007.
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I tried that for fun myself weekly population of Emerald Dragons score the most damage (258) of all creatures when initiative and opponents defence is considered 10 . When initiative only is taken into account Master Hunters and Djinn Sultans do the most damage (182)
Castle + Horde Dwelings are included.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 27, 2007 05:20 PM |
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Emerald Dragons?
It seems I underestimated these fast killing-machines
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 27, 2007 05:33 PM |
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well, 14 init is a lot in fact. ;}
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nickkkk
Known Hero
Necro fan since 1988
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posted May 13, 2007 10:07 AM |
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Quote:
I'll leave the interpretation up to you, but Academy and Necro don't look as bad as they are often described.
Actualy I consider them the best two factions. Necro is my favourit castle and titans rule. recently raksha raja.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 13, 2007 02:57 PM |
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2nd expansion will surely give me a lot of calculating  alternative upgrades+orcs, that's quite a lot
Fortunately I have that damn formula in excel, and I just type in the variables.. 
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted May 22, 2007 09:00 PM |
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Hey Doom, how come the Black Rider has the same damage as the Grim Raider in your chart? It deals 7-12 while the Grim Raider deals 7-14
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 09:53 PM |
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whoopsie, then :-X gotta correct it.
EDIT: no, it's not a typo. Black raider has 7-12 damage, yes, but he also has 12 ATT compared to grim raider's 10. For the formula I'm using, the damage is indeed the same.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 10, 2007 10:17 AM |
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THE CHART HAS BEEN UPDATED ACCORDING TO TOTE VALUES.
I need this one in my analyzes concerning alternatives and the stronghold faction so feel free to ignore it
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