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| Thread: Dungeon heroes overview! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 20, 2007 08:21 PM |
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Dungeon heroes overview!
I've decided to take I closer look at dungeon. Well, it's been my favorite castle in h2, and I really love those beautiful blackies here. It seems cool that dungeon isn't limited - like inferno - to Deleb only, because most of the heroes offer something interesting. Also, without the tent, the game is a bit more spontaneus - without the creeping routine  Hell, I like it.
But I really wouldn't be myself without wondering which hero suits my playstyle the best, so..
overlooked heroes
Note that overlooked hero doesn't exactly mean bad: it rather means that it's not a killer the community calls him.
Sinitar - The very favorite of many dungeon players.. however, the description of his ability made me kinda shocked. It reduces the empowered spells cost by a mere 5%+1%per level. Duh  I have a weird feeling that it was stronger in the previous patches.. anyway.. it doesn't seem too much. It doesn't help the earlygame, too.. and his skills kinda suck, only basic destructive? awww.. Starting with a level1 spell is no benefit either.
Let's do a bit of calculations..
Empowered implosion costs 36 mana. LVL15 sinitar casts it for 29 mana. So, the only benefit is the most expensive spell being 7 mana cheaper? (6 mana if arcane training is applied, and even less with erratic mana) I don't think it's worth it. If you want to blast your enemy with spells forever, better go with yrbeth.
Yrwanna - raising furies' survival from 16% to 30% still isn't enough. They STILL die from 1 hit.. bah. Yrwanna has good starting skills, though - enlightment is always handy, and intelligence kicks butt. She suffers quite badly from bad starting spell - slow for warlock isn't the best idea, although it may certainly help.. however, with intelligence, I'd rather see a destructive spell, those tend to help a lot in first weeks.
Bad heroes
Sorgal aww. His only stregth is the attack skill, making it possible to get tactics quite fast.. except for that, uhh, lizard specialization that boosts ONLY the not very good lizard bite? Worthless if you ask me, lizards are second after blood furies to get killed and you won't really have many ocasions to use lizard bite under extreme focusfire.. Plus, haste spell at start is a waste. period.
Average heroes
Yrbeth, Lethos. Their specials are quite good (Yrbeth - infinite mana, Lethos - poisoning every enemy stack can often do more damage all together than implosion..), but since arcane intuition no longer enables you to learn magic from your own creatures, dark magic will be rather mediocre choice. Sure, it's still good to have it (2% choice for darkmagic makes it a good starting skill!), but the lack of spells is rather bad.
Good heroes
Vayshan - now, that's a good hero for early exploration! starts with a ton of scouts and boosts them. In first day you will have like 40 of them, and that's a reasonable number - although they suck, they can really be a nasty thing in first week in such big numbers. You don't really want to care for them, too, so they make great tanks as you wreck havoc among the neutrals with destructive spells.. Starting with luck&soldier's luck is a good thing too, since it enables to get fast warlock's luck extremely fast and boosts the army overall. Too bad his speciality is totally worthless after the first week. Oh well.
Eruina - a lot of benefits. Starts with attack (fast tactics can make killing those hunters a LOT easier.. >_>, has a level2 destructive spell+basic destructive (nice creepkiller in the first week..), and her specialization ain't bad (booosts the damage of witches, whic is good, since dungeon lacks shooters). Overall a solid hero.
My personal favorite
Kythra - probably you wonder why, huh? well, there's more about her than meets the eye. First - icebolt, which is better than eruina's lightning (higher damage when spellpower is low, and it IS low in the first week..) and has a way better speciality - master of ice (which, along with shadow matriarchs' slow, makes a good disabler even in lategame). Second, she starts with a very good&extremly rare skill for a warlock - leadership (2% choice per level - in other words, forget it). Third, leadership makes it possible to reach aura of swiftness fast, which is even better than tactics against shooting neutrals. Fourth, estates - more gold is never wrong, and dungeon has an expensive army. Fifth, the bonus to minotaurs makes them great & suprisingly durable fighters, especially with teleport assault. And dungeon needs strong hitters.
As you see, the list of benefits is quite long. Of course, if there was a hero starting with defence, I'd pick him regardless of his special (to get the power of endurance perk!). Too bad there ain't none.
Kythra fits my might-orientated playstyle very much. I don't really like to rely too much on destructive - it's fun, but also requires a lot of time and skills, and gets countered so ****ing easily by some factions. Let's see,you need enlightment+intelligence, sorcery+arcanetraining+erratic mana, destructive, luck+soldier's luck+warlock's luck, ton of resources for guilds, luck to get slippers, luck to get implosion in your guild, some +SP artifacts.. and still, even with all those things, a stupid counterspell can make all your efforts worthless.. not mentioning familiars draining you completely, academy arties giving ridiculous ammounts of spell resistance, silver unicorns, dwarven luck, antimagic spell and so on. In other words, I prefer to get some huge army, skip the guilds and get skills that can boost my creatures. And Kythra gives it to me - leadership (+possibly retribution) is a nice pick for might-orientated warlock, 15% chance of getting attack makes it rather certain to get attack,tactics and power of speed, luck appears often too.. and if def is there, obviously pick it for power of endurance. Oh, and logistics+scouting+teleport assault, obviously. That makes quite a good backup for nice creatures. Ah yes, artifact merchant is a blessing - all your gold TAKEN FROM CHESTS INSTEAD OF EXP OF COURSE goes here (it can really make up for your lacking def and add several interesting bonuses that can cover your spellcasting nature).
Well, that concludes the overview. I'd like to read some of your tips too. I still suck with dungeon anyway
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted January 20, 2007 08:26 PM |
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Good work 
P.S.
Come on give him a QP 
____________
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 20, 2007 08:31 PM |
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Quote:
Sinitar - The very favorite of many dungeon players.. however, the description of his ability made me kinda shocked. It reduces the empowered spells cost by a mere 5%+1%per level. Duh I have a weird feeling that it was stronger in the previous patches.. anyway.. it doesn't seem too much. It doesn't help the earlygame, too.. and his skills kinda suck, only basic destructive? awww.. Starting with a level1 spell is no benefit either
What says in the game is WRONG. It reduces the emp. spells cost by 10% + 2% per level, so that at level 20 the mana cost would be like the original spell's. (anyway, it can't get lower!)
ONLY basic destructive? It starts with basic destructive and EMPOWERED Spells. And Eldritch Arrow is good at first week, like the Ice Bolt.
Anyway, I'm not a Sinitar-lover, but he's not a bad hero either.
And why do you say the Grim Raiders die fast? They have 60 HP, they are the most 'tanky' tier4 units!
And... many players find Kythra the worst Dungeon Hero because she starts out only with Minotaurs. (Yrbeth the next one...)
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 20, 2007 08:32 PM |
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A great description, congratulations...
However, I'd still rather put Lethos in the "Good" than in "Average" section...
He's my favourite hero... Not only is he powerful, but he also reminds me of Sid Vicious a little 
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 20, 2007 08:36 PM |
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ZombieLord: They don't die that fast, but they are obviously the first target of the enemy's main hitter, because their def-reduce makes them too dangerous to let them live -_- . With no bonuses in def for warlocks, they go down quite fast.
Btw, are you sure the description of catalyst is bugged? If so, it makes him a bit better. Still, you can see in duel mode that a level 15 sinitar with arcane training costs emopowered implosion for only 6 mana less than a normal hero would, so at second glance the 5%+1% formula seems correct.
Baklava: LOL he indeed looks like SV 
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 20, 2007 08:37 PM |
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Ok, maybe you have another version of the game? I have 1.4 without HoF.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 20, 2007 08:39 PM |
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Yes, I have HoF. I also think that it used to be higher in the past. Well, HoF brought many unadressed changes, it may be one of them.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 20, 2007 08:46 PM |
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I'd rather classify the hero's strengths for the big battles (with players), and usefulness (fun included) NOT for creeping/first week thing. But yeah, you're the creeping maniac (Deleb/Tent lover)...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 20, 2007 08:52 PM |
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I think you're the one obsessed with mentioning that, TheDeath. 
If I really wanted creeping only, I'd write Vayshan is the best. But I didn't. Kethra is better for me, even though she offers no-good units at creeping and her start is rather slow.
So, who is obsessed here, huh?
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 20, 2007 08:57 PM |
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Oh, and I don't know why you find furies weak. They're extremely useful at creeping! They smash melee units and sometimes also handle ranged units (if you have tactics). Position them in the fourth tile from the left and they will reach at least one stack of creeps, regardless of the number of stacks (with tactics or speed +1, of course)
if you can live with the idea of losing Scouts doesn't mean it's the only way of creeping. Believe me, I can make most of the neutrals without losses (ok, not like Deleb or with the tent, but...)
sure, there are times when that snowin' randomness doesn't help me or is even AGAINST me! (one time i hoped my hero to act before the hunters, but he was after the MINOTAUR!!! wtf? I hate that 0-0.25 random start ATB thingy) Too much random in this game, if you ask me
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 20, 2007 09:02 PM |
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Quote:
leadership (2% choice per level - in other words, forget it
Strange that I was offered Attack many times with Sylvan (it's 2%). The random in this game sucks.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 20, 2007 09:06 PM |
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Quote:
Oh, and I don't know why you find furies weak. They're extremely useful at creeping! They smash melee units and sometimes also handle ranged units (if you have tactics). Position them in the fourth tile from the left and they will reach at least one stack of creeps, regardless of the number of stacks (with tactics or speed +1, of course)
Try to beat fast, one-hex creatures like vamplords or cerberi with furies, without loses. And have fun.
Late game? 16% survival. Killed in first turn. Rubbish.
Wonderful for killing slow walkers or strong, non-dragon two-hex creatures, though!
Quote:
if you can live with the idea of losing Scouts doesn't mean it's the only way of creeping. Believe me, I can make most of the neutrals without losses (ok, not like Deleb or with the tent, but...)
Druids? Inquisitors? Liches? Cerberi? Marksmen? (splitted, ofc..). Sprites? I can continue forever. No, you can't. There is always some sacrifice needed. Sure, Djinns, nightmares or master hunters, considered as tough neutrals, can be killed very easily, and without any loses (a bit of positioning and tactics is all you need..), but it doesn't mean you can take everything with dungeon.
Quote:
sure, there are times when that snowin' randomness doesn't help me or is even AGAINST me! (one time i hoped my hero to act before the hunters, but he was after the MINOTAUR!!! wtf? I hate that 0-0.25 random start ATB thingy) Too much random in this game, if you ask me
I hate when neutral shooters act before my whole army, even if they are 2points of inititative below my fastest units. Why does it happen so often? ~~ I HATE IT.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 20, 2007 09:13 PM |
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Quote:
I think you're the one obsessed with mentioning that, TheDeath.
If I really wanted creeping only, I'd write Vayshan is the best. But I didn't. Kethra is better for me, even though she offers no-good units at creeping and her start is rather slow.
So, who is obsessed here, huh?
You mentioned that you find Kythra especially useful because of Ice Bolt, and that spell is getting weaker than Lightning Bolt as SpellPower increases, which is an attribute that a Warlock usually swims through. unless it's about early game creeping.
And I'm obsessed? Obsessed with what? With playing with all heroes in ALL factions (includes Inferno) and enjoying this game for fun?Quote:
I've decided to take I closer look at dungeon. Well, it's been my favorite castle in h2, and I really love those beautiful blackies here. It seems cool that dungeon isn't limited - like inferno - to Deleb only, because most of the heroes offer something interesting. Also, without the tent, the game is a bit more spontaneus - without the creeping routine Hell, I like it.
I think YOU bring Deleb and the tent and the "creeping routine" in almost all topics. (not mentioning Dougal)
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 20, 2007 09:16 PM |
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Yeah, but I got tired of it a bit. ^_^
And Kythra suits my taste not because of that stupid spell, but because of rare skill configuration (for warlocks). Icebolt is only an addon.. the best spell you could get, btw. Why shouldn't I mention it?
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 20, 2007 09:24 PM |
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Try to beat fast, one-hex creatures like vamplords or cerberi with furies, without loses. And have fun.
Well, I never had problems with VampLords. They're my favorite tier4 neutrals Okay, sometimes I have problems with cerberi, but not always. And don't worry, I have fun.
Marksmen? For me, they're the weakest ranged neutral, because of their initiative. It's almost garanteed that the hero acts first, and if you have Wasp Swarm or Master of Ice or Master of Storms or other things... (plus the Blood Furies attack 1 or even 2 times before the marksmen, WITHOUT morale. twice the initiative, you know)
Quote:
Late game? 16% survival. Killed in first turn. Rubbish.
This 'first turn' is after the Blood Furies attack, or even twice (if Morale applies). You never think about the lost army? I think it's enough survival for such a fast creature. (come on, don't tell me the cerberi or the Imps are more durable)
Hell Hound vs Blood Maiden
Att: 4, 4
Def: 2, 2
Dmg: 3-5, 5-7
HP: 15, 16
Specials: None, strike and return
Cost: 110, 125
want more?
Anyway, if you don't like Furies, go for the opposite alternative - zombies - such awesome creatures!
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted January 20, 2007 09:34 PM |
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Furies doesn't suck, but their growth DOES suck.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 20, 2007 09:37 PM |
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Quote:
This 'first turn' is after the Blood Furies attack, or even twice (if Morale applies). You never think about the lost army? I think it's enough survival for such a fast creature. (come on, don't tell me the cerberi or the Imps are more durable)
Check my chart. There is no weaker unit than blood fury except sprites. And they do little damage in the lategame. Imps don't need to be durable, they only drain mana, yet they ARE more durable. Cerberi too. Check the chart again
Furies do 1 strike, RARELY two (who cares they are fast? Do you really think the enemy doesn't have a fastm high-init unit in his army? :| Geez! They are not the only 10+ init units in the game..) and die.
Quote:
Hell Hound vs Blood Maiden
Att: 4, 4
Def: 2, 2
Dmg: 3-5, 5-7
HP: 15, 16
Specials: None, strike and return
Cost: 110, 125
want more?
Yes.Growth.
That type of comparing is stupid. Cerberi are triple attack units(+hellfire), they gate, attack and after that they die(fast, I agree, but they become pitlords (archdevils raise them)). Furies strike once for a pitiful damage and they are turned into useless corpse. Think twice before comparing units like that - by stats.
Quote:
Anyway, if you don't like Furies, go for the opposite alternative - zombies - such awesome creatures!
They are total garbage, but good tanks. Could you use furies as shields for your shooters? No. Not every unit needs to be offensively strong killer. Some are meant to be utility units or tanks, in which they are more useful than furies in killing.
The whole point of furies' "suckness" is their growth, nothing more. But, growth is more important than other stats, in fact.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 20, 2007 09:41 PM |
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Furies doesn't suck, but their growth DOES suck.
multiply the cost by their growth and you'll see it's not far from the other tier2 creatures. the problem in this game is that high tier creatures cost more (with the weekly growth) and are thus stronger by buying the full population. You should say: every tier2 creature sucks! or especially tier1 (except skellies or markmen 'cause of necromancy and training) Don't you realize the minotaur costs more and you have MORE than Furies? Look at other factions and see that, for example, squires are much expensive than marksmen (counting with weekly growth). That's why you have MORE minotaurs than furies. (the minotaurs cost like the other tier3 creatures, and same with the furies)
Don't compare growth between different tiers as it is unfair, compare the prices instead.
It's just not fair that my lower-level creatures are so weak (with the growth rate being so low...) I want UNLIMITED GROWTH
stupid growth system
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted January 20, 2007 09:42 PM |
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Doomforge? Are you saying that you would rather use Dungeon as a more creature specced town then using magic? Because everyone keep saying Dugeon must relay on their magic? but your saying drop it and go crazy?
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 20, 2007 09:45 PM |
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Quote:
That type of comparing is stupid. Cerberi are triple attack units(+hellfire), they gate, attack and after that they die(fast, I agree, but they become pitlords (archdevils raise them)).
First, I was talking about Hell Hounds
Second, what does the pitlord thing have to do with cerberi? That's an ArchDevil thing! (gating is a hero skill, not cerberus')
And Blood Furies have Initiative 16, Cerberi 13, so they act first, killing one third of cerberi. (if there was fair growth in this game...)
They have more growth? wtf? they COST more! that's not fair! (because this game favors higher tier creatures, and cerberi are tier 3, when furies are 2) What if there was unlimited growth? Sure the prices would come into play...
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