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| Thread: critique my technique please (Dwarven Hold) | |
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Demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2007 05:58 PM |
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Edited by Demarest at 18:12, 30 Mar 2007.
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critique my technique please (Dwarven Hold)
I'm just starting to learn how to chain, so I'm using Rampart for now until I get used to it. I realize that hitting gold buildings (like the Dwarven Hold) as soon as possible is a must if you want to build your level six creature dwelling AND Castle by the end of the week. Rampart having Grand Elves (GEs) day two and the Centaurs (Cs) already being fast, this can be done in some cases as early as day two. In the game I'm about to share with you, I arrived at a Dwarven Hold day four of week one that said it had lots of Dwarves (Ds) and a pack of Battle Dwarves (BDs). I was lucky enough to be able to hire a Barbarian day one, so I had a power of four and Basic Offense.
I had tried several different approaches. The one that worked best for me, that I'm looking for feedback on, is: 1 Goblin (G), 1 Wolf Rider (WR), 24 Gs, 12 GEs, 1 WR, 50 Cs, 1 WR.
overview of Krellion and army
In a battle dwelling, this puts us with (sorry, lost my screen capture while posting this topic):
... 1 G ... 1 WR ...
24 Gs . 12 GEs . 1WR
.. 50 Cs .. 1 WR ...
Start of first round, the speed eight (on grass) GEs shoot the BDs twice. The speed seven (on grass) Cs attack them, but not on the bottom row as they want to be as close to the rest of the action as possible. The speed six (on grass) BDs walk up and attack my Gs. In an earlier test, the BD retaliation did not kill a C, so they stayed put and attacked the Cs instead. The three WRs move to the right, against three separate stacks of Ds to keep them there. I had tried Gs earlier, their speed of five and single hex width made it so that they didn't quite reach the Ds. The speed five lone G is up, and it moves towards the upper left Ds. Here, we don't want it to make it all the way. We want it to be on the third row so that the upper left Ds have to step down a row. This will put them in range of the Cs, which we want. Also, we don't want it up against the left edge because we need room for both the Cs and the Gs to attack it next round. Next, the Gs step down a row and finish off the BD. In an earlier test, they were already dead, but I still needed to step the Gs down one row so that they'd be out of range of the upper left Ds. Now the speed four (on grass) Ds move. The three right stacks kill their respective fodder. The upper left one steps down a row and kills its fodder.
beginning of second round
The round was much simpler thanks to no morale bonuses (a very real risk, but only harmful if the middle right Ds had gotten one last round or in this round). The GEs shoot the upper left Ds. The Cs attack the upper left Ds. Then the Gs finish the upper left Ds off. The three right Ds move towards me.
beginning of third round
The GEs need to move. Sure we could stuff them in the corner, but we want to try and coax the bottom Ds to step left instead of upwards. If the GEs moved straight back, they wouldn't utilize their full movement. Which I now realize is okay. At the time though, I wanted to move the full eight (on grass), so I moved up two rows to lure the Ds closer to my hand to hand units. The Cs and Gs waited. The Ds all came nearer. It was after the wait, so the slower Gs had to move. I attacked the nearest Ds to soak up the retaliation. Then I moved in with the Cs to severely injure them. I would've loved to let my hand to hand units stay put this round. But I need the Ds to stay away from my GEs and engaging them at a distance that is still within the GEs range was the best way, I thought.
beginning of fourth round
Here, you'd want to target either of the full stacks of Ds. Reason being that they're more than four rows apart. So if you attack the top one from the top, the bottom one can't reach and if you attack the bottom from the bottom, the top one can't reach. In retrospect, attacking the bottom one was probably the better idea, but I attacked the top. That's the GEs shot the upper right Ds. The Cs attacked, but from the upper right as to leave room for the Gs, who followed to do more damage from above. The upper stacks of Ds did some damage while the bottom one moved closer to the action.
beginning of fifth round
GEs attack the big Ds, Cs attack the medium Ds, and Gs take advantage of that Ds lack of retaliation. Ds fight, killing the Gs. In an earlier run, I actually won with 2 Gs left, but had neglected to take screen captures at that time.
beginning of sixth round
Sixth round was GEs attacking Ds. Cs attacking Ds. Ds attacking Cs and dieing from the retaliation.
the end result
I lost 187 hit points to their 1500. For the loss of four native first level creatures, I gained 4000 gold, three of Rampart's much needed Crystal, and Krellion gained two levels. Not bad at all. What do you think? What could I have done differently/better?
Also, how soon do you take on Naga Banks? Dragon Utopias? What strategies do you use that do NOT require you to have Expert Air Magic and the Force Field spell?  Use Rampart as an example if you can. Otherwise, whatever city you're comfortable with. Mostly I'm looking at how to guage how quickly/soon they can be taken. Thank you for your time. I hope you enjoyed the play by play.
[EDIT]
Not just Banks and Utopias, but also Griffin Conservatories and Dragon Fly Hives if you'd be so kind. Thank you.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 30, 2007 08:47 PM |
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Try the same fight with a slightly different setup of your troops:
.....1 WR(a).......1 G.....
50 C.....24 G........1 WR(b)
....12 GE........1 WR(c)
1st round
GE shoot BD, Cents attack BD, BD whatever (should be dead after their action, if not, goblins will attack them if they stay near GEs), WR(a) goes up to Top left corner and blocks dwarves(right UNDER them, so middle dwarves can reach them!), WR(b) goes top right corner and blocks dwarves, WR(c) walks down to bottom row about in the center, at least 5 hex away from bottom right dwarven stack, 1 G goes top right corner and also blocks dwarves, 24 G either attack rest of BD if some still alive, other wise walk beside GEs.
Top right dwarven stack will attack wolves and kill, bottom right dwarves will go towards bottom WR(c), Top left dwarven stack will attack wolves and kill, middle right dwarven stack will go up and attack 1 G and kill.
2nd round
GE shoot top left dwarves, cents and goblins wait, WR(c) walks into center of battlefield, so no stack could rech it. All dwarven stacks do their movement. Cents kill top left stack, goblins walk in same direction.
3rd round
GE shoot bottom right stack...cents wait...etc...etc..etc..
Use the single WR(c) to keep them 2 dwarven stacks from the top and right corner far away from the GEs and the cents. That way, u can shoot them down, even with broken arrow, before u kill them completely.
You shouldn't lose more than these 3 Wolfriders and the single goblin. Not counting moral of course.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2007 09:08 PM |
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Thanks! Definitely food for thought.
What are your thoughts about using that city to topple other such dwellings? I wasn't really looking for a timeline so much as I was a relative army strength or configuration. Even this fight here, I normally wouldn't have even tried unless I had 3-4 times the army to do it with. 
Also, your signature is Monty Python, right? Sounds like something Sir Robin's minstrels would sing.
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Demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 31, 2007 10:19 AM |
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Edited by Demarest at 16:07, 31 Mar 2007.
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critique my technique please part II (full Crypt)
Being that I was showed up above a much better way than I had utilized, I've come back for more!
Preface: It was a bad start. NO Elves (Es) in my first two native heroes. So I only had the seven from the Homestead. With this few, I generally don't upgrade them until second week. Through some pretty effective chaining, I had already knocked off two Crypts, including one on day one (aren't you proud of me?). As a result, my army was already a bit battered. So in a way, it was good that I didn't waste a day with the Upgraded Homestead as I went straight to Unicorns (Us) because there were two more Crypts in sight. The next one in line, happened to be a full one.
As you read this, keep in mind that back at home, I had 9 Dwarves (Ds) waiting and 3 Dendroid Guards (DGs) I could purchase. If part of my error was in what creatures I used, by all means point that out if you would. In retrospect, being that both the Ds and DGs would have the same mobility as the Troglodytes (Ts) on grass, I probably should've taken in one of them instead. But which? The DGs would've fought harder, but the 9 Ds were free (already sitting in town). Then again, having tougher speed fours would've probably made the AI focus on my Es more, eh?
Just like before, I had to try several configurations. In the end, what worked best for me was 2 Us, 1 Pegasus (P), 1 P, 7 Es, 5 Ts, 29 Centaurs (Cs), and 3 Ps. I didn't want to use the Ps as fodder, but they were the only units faster than my Us. I don't normally have a use for Ps until week three, so losing two in week one to preserve my only 2 Us seemed wise. By the way, this is day four of week one and I was using Jabarkas, who has an attack of four, Basic Offense, and Basic Archery.
overview of Jabarkas and army
beginning of first round
The first P was out of range of the Wights (Ws), so I simply moved them under my Es. There, they were in range to attack the Ws or the Vampires (Vs), but not in range of the Vs attacking them. The 2nd P sacrificed itself to soak up the retaliation of the Ws. The "big" Ps came in to hit the Ws. Then the Us. The Es were up and it looked as if the Cs would be able to finish off the Ws, so I shot the Vs instead. Sure enough, the Cs did finish off the Ws. The Ts just moved towards the action. Though in retrospect, moving towards the right edge without being in range of the Skeletons (Ss) or the Walking Dead (WD) would've probably been better. All the enemies moved.
beginning of second round
The last fodder P attacked the Vs to soak up the retaliation. Then the Ps, the Us, the Es, and the Cs all attacked the Vs, bringing it down to one. It blocked my Es and attacked my Ts, killing a couple. The Ts attacked the Vs and the Ss and WD moved.
beginning of third round
Since there was a V left, I felt I had to fight it out right where I was since attacking them would keep me in range of the Ss. In retrospect, I should've waited, moved to the left anyways as the Vs probably would've just killed the Ts. Anyways, the Ps attacked the Vs to soak up the retaliation. They got a lot less hurt than they would've attacking the Ss. The Us attacked the Ss. The Es didn't have enough fight to kill the Vs, so they attacked the Ss hand to hand (no retaliation). Then the Cs finished off the V. The Ss killed my Ts and the WD moved to the left.
beginning of fourth round
The Ps killed the Ss. The Us, Es, and Cs attacked the WD. The WD attacked the Cs and after their retaliation, there was one WD left. So fifth round is self explanatory.
the end result
I lost 101 hit points to their 900. For the loss of 2 Ps and 2 Cs of my native troops, I gained 5000 gold, the Necklace of Swiftness(!), and Jabarkas gained a level. He wasn't really my main hero, just the one that could get to the Crypt as Gurnisson had taken over another Crypt the day before that was two days travel away. Worth it? How could I have done better? Thank you for your time.
[EDIT]
Tried it again with the Ds. Losses were greater (2 Ps and 7 Ds). But that was because of a miscalculation on my part. First round, I needed to move the Ds towards the bottom to lure the Ss towards them, without being in range since in both round, the Ss will be first of the speed fours to move. I tried once more with the 9 Ds in place of the 5 Ts and with this minor correction. I won and only lost the 2 Ps that were marked for death anyways 
[EDIT2]
Wow, I really owe it to you guys. I used to hire one or two heroes first week. I had seven heroes (eight altogether) hired by day four. Within the first week, I knocked over five Crypts, four of which had Vs. Only in one did I suffer ANY losses (the full one). I didn't build any money buildings, but instead built all creature dwellings between Dwarf Cottage and Unicorn Glade, as well as a Castle. Meanwhile, I hadn't lost a single Elf all week despite my heroes fighting enough to have a collective experience of 7386. On day eight, after my scouts were done moving, I have 37,170 gold with which to upgrade my Homestead and hire everything with Best part is that my heroes are spread out well and I can see three Dwarven Holds, a Medusa Stores, two Naga Banks, a Dragon Fly Hive, a Griffin Conservatory, and a Dragon Utopia. If I continue to take my time and plan ahead, I'm sure weeks two and three will be equally profitable. The bad news is that I have several options in how to leave my area, so I'll have to be careful not to spread myself too thin.
[EDIT3]
I'm really getting this I think. It's day seven of week two. This week, I knocked off three Dwarven Holds, two Medusa Stores, and another Crypt. I still haven't lost any Elves or Unicorn And just to show you guys that I've learned from my gold producing "newbie" ways, on day seven (14), I built the Dendroid Saprolings instead of the Treasury. In fact, the only gold building I built was the Town Hall and already I realize I'd rather have had another upgrade day instead, as after the Saprolings, I'm sitting on 46,525 gold. The City Hall has only contributed 2,000 to that and it cost me 2,500 Live and learn I guess. On day 15, I think I'm going to build the upgraded Unicorn Glade. I was going to build the Blacksmith, but since I'm eyeballing three Naga Banks, I figured beefier Unicorn would be better than a First Aid Tent. I just hope my approach with the Banks is successful. Sorry for the play by play. Just I've never chained well and I thought you guys might like to know that I'm learning AND reaping the rewards
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Winthrop
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 31, 2007 11:13 PM |
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Wonderful tactic I tried it today and found out this tactic pretty good - especially with Tazar ;] Bonus shot for my shooters and bonus turn for casting spells is great. Thanks!
Keep up the good work.
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Demarest
Known Hero
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posted April 01, 2007 09:12 AM |
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Edited by Demarest at 09:19, 01 Apr 2007.
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Alright, I have some questions now. I hope some vets will help. Why? For the longest time, I've wanted to be able to sit down and play a game of heroes and take a few days if need be. I'd even choose XL with underground. Yet I've always dove in, had one hero going around and eventually I either have a killer spell combo that makes me a god or I'm caught with my pants down. Either way, it's over in no time. Playing this way however, I've invested maybe 8 hours on this one game and it's only week three day two. I've played the first couple weeks very well I believe and don't want to blow it now. Because if I can learn to play this way, and well, I'm sure to get all the enjoyment from the game I always wanted to
First of all, I've noticed I'm not necessarily chaining so much as I'm gridding. My heroes might resemble a chain for the most part, but I also have a couple heroes nearby that COULD take my troops in another direction at a moment's notice. Which is probably a good thing. However, the "main hero" concept failed a long ways back. Instead, I have two level four heroes, two level five heroes, with my "main" at level seven. Is this normal and I just haven't set off in one direction yet? To make me even more concerned about the issue, my level 1 Mage Guild has Slow and I found a Resurrection scroll. But because I've been chaining/gridding, anybody with Earth Magic only has it at the basic level. Is it just that I'm not yet far enough along? Is this a normal look for this point in the game? That's really my only concern. In terms of what I've cleared and how fast, I couldn't be happier
Next, is my situation. How long into the game do you take on various banks and such? In less than two days time, I took the three Naga Banks I could see. I got lucky too because each one had three per stack I was using three Green Dragons, ten War Unicorns, 35 Grand Elves and four stacks of one Centaur each. That was PROBABLY not enough mean to seriously look at Naga Banks. Would you agree? One of them was taken on by one of my magic heroes and I was all but lucky to escape with no losses. Had these been ones with stacks of four or six Nagas, I should've skipped them. Would you agree? Which brings me to the question of Dragon Utopia's. I had one in my backyard and I've just located a second one. It's been my experience that the artifacts inside can be game breakers and of course the gold is helpful too. How many weeks in will I have the army to knock one down? Yes, I've found the Resurrection scroll and that will help once I get Advanced Earth. Other than that, the only variables in terms of my army as follows: Had levels one through six built with Castle end of week one. End of week two, I had level seven built, the Miner's Guild, and the Dendroid Saprolings. At the end of both weeks, the Legs of Legion were on my Garrisoned hero (almost didn't make it back in time the second week).
Which brings me to my final concern. This week, I hired my Green Dragons, War Unicorns, Grand Elves, and Centaurs. After knocking over three Naga Banks, I have 47,365, it's week three day two, and I have yet to build. Perhaps I'll better know based on the answers I get above, but I'm curious about build order. It's VERY tempting to go for Capitol now while there's a break in the action. If however, I'm within a week's time of taking on the Utopias, I might want all the upgrades I can get. I've also consider how if I go for Gold Dragons now, a hero with only Golds and MAYBE some Centaur fodder could probably take out the two Dragon Fly Hives and one Griffin Conservatory I'm seeing. Or could I have taken them on already? If I went for the Conservatory, I'd want Upgraded Centaurs anyways.
Other things to consider: One of my scouts has flagged an Ore Mine. Which leads me to believe that there's an Inferno a couple days to the north. Should I aim for that next? I THINK there's an Imp Crucible along the way. Should I have gone that way the moment I knew it was there AND had knocked off enough gold buildings to be okay for a bit? Or was it right to keep knocking everything down and THEN focuse my attention elsewhere? Also, to the west, there's a Medusa Stores and Dwarven Hold I can see. Should I continue trying to knock down such buildings? So I guess my question is: Do you lay off your pursuit once you have "enough gold." To you keep knocking them all over until you have enough to have all seven buildings upgraded and buy them all? When in this process do you interrupt yourself to grab another city? And so on.
I'm thinking about setting this game aside until I get some answers. Like I said, I'm really satisfied with the results thus far and would hate to throw it all away now.
[EDIT]
I've uploaded my current save. I wasn't sure if the map it started on was needed for somebody to be able to load my game, so I included both my save and the map in a ZIP in case anybody was interested in checking out my progress and giving me advice based on specifically what can be seen. You can download it here. In case I hadn't mentioned it, that's Heroes III Complete.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 31, 2007 12:41 PM |
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@Dwarves: If it says pack BDs and lots Ds you will face stacks of 10. So what it must have said is pack BDs and horde Ds.
This is how I would play it:
.....1 WR.........1 G.....
24G........50 C........1 G
....12 GE.........1 G.....
1. round: GEs shoot BDs, Cents attack BDs. If any BDs are left they might attack your goblins which could save one cent. The retaliation from the goblins or cents should kill them. Then place the WR over the GEs and the goblins to the left of them, this way the dwarves to the top left wont reach the GEs if they get moral. Move the middle right goblin to the left and wait with the other two, then move one or both to the right behind the dwarves. This way one or two dwarves will be ocupied 2 rounds.
2. round and on: You kill the dwarves to the left with your 3 powerstacks. One or two dwarves from the right will come towards you and shouldnt be a problem to kill in the following rounds. You can use a single goblin to take retaliation if nessesary and you can allways move your GEs to the cornor if the dwarves come to close.
@Crypt: With the army you used (except 2 trogs):
.....1 trog.........5 P.....
1 trog........7 E........2 U
....1 trog.........29 C.....
Wait with all units, 2 trogs will be killed, the 3. hit the vamps and so does the rest of your troops. Next round P hit vamps, U hits wights, depending on whats left of the vamps your elfs shoot at them, if only one is left thats no problem, it cant kill more than a cent, otherwise they shoot at the wights and the cents hit them aswell. When vamps and wights are gone the battle is basicly over.
I would have brough the dends instead of the pegasi though and placed them in the middle. This way they could hit and bind the vamps after they move. That would secure only losing 2 trogs. Without bringing the dends you might lose a few cents.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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