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| Thread: THE PERFECT BALANCE. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 13, 2007 05:32 PM |
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Quote:
What do you think about this puppet master.
"Gain control of target stack's next action. This spell cannot be dispelled or countered "
I think somehow that would end up being a boost of Puppet Master, even if it's only for one turn. 
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What will happen now?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 13, 2007 05:41 PM |
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You may be right. OK so what about this one?
"Gain control of target stack's next action. This spell cannot be dispelled or countered. Creature retaliates as normal"
I think this would be quite fair.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted April 13, 2007 06:22 PM |
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Very interesting thread DoomForge
Quote:
"Gain control of target stack's next action. This spell cannot be dispelled or countered. Creature retaliates as normal"
Good idea
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 13, 2007 06:23 PM |
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Not dispellable Mind Spells is a no-no in my book. 
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 13, 2007 07:38 PM |
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With sorcery, that would lead to something like..
"woah, the paladins are finally mine  "
so it's a no-no indeed..
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted April 13, 2007 07:41 PM |
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Quote:
"woah, the paladins are finally mine "
Yeah but you sacrifice the hero for that, when the enemy hero still takes actions
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 13, 2007 07:46 PM |
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For paladins, I'd sacrifice my hero and half of my army. Well, if I played necro, that is.. 
You gain a powerstack.
The enemy loses a powerstack.
200% effect!
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted April 14, 2007 12:10 AM |
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Pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted April 14, 2007 03:15 AM |
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The whole problem with puppet is like Alc said, that it doesn't depend on stack size at all - just shortening the duration to make it one action won't help at all. Any fix HAS to address it's ability to control an unlimited number of creatures.
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linkTouched by His Noodly Appendage
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 14, 2007 05:16 AM |
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Quote:
For paladins, I'd sacrifice my hero and half of my army. Well, if I played necro, that is..
hahah and you say that new necromancy system is balanced ?
one stack of knights palladins deal more dmg than whole undead army wtf?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 14, 2007 01:06 PM |
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I never said that: I think it's weak 
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 14, 2007 01:33 PM |
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Ok sorry if i misunderstood you but I remember conversation where i said , that after patch, instead 2k skellies you get 20 wrights. I said that if it was like 40 it would be more appropriate balance and than you said it would be too much. So my conclusion was you think new necro system is ok.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted April 14, 2007 01:58 PM |
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How about, for Puppet Master, the amount of time you control the unit is based on their level vs. your spell power.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 14, 2007 02:12 PM |
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Quote:
How about, for Puppet Master, the amount of time you control the unit is based on their level vs. your spell power.
Good idea. I'd say even more, based on unit lvl and number of creatures in stack. Based on power wouldnt be good i guess because as we all know 40 (or so , don't remember exactly ) master gremlins is far weaker than 1 titan
Quote:
quote:However, one can always ask whether a player is supposed to be able to take out level 4 or 5 guards in week 1 and 2 - I don't necessarily think this should be so...
thumbs up
If it can take out lvl 7 on week 2 so why not lvl 4 or 5
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 16, 2007 05:04 PM |
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Quote:
...Based on power wouldnt be good i guess because as we all know 40 (or so, don't remember exactly ) master gremlins is far weaker than 1 titan
It is actually 60, and yes they are a 'bit' weaker, but not that much though
Still if you use the gold cost then that leads to around 120 gremlinsm which are much better at least in my opinion 
Also I'd like to quote alci's text here:
Quote:
However, one can always ask whether a player is supposed to be able to take out level 4 or 5 guards in week 1 and 2 - I don't necessarily think this should be so...
thumbs up
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted April 19, 2007 05:44 PM |
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Many of the imbalances stated in this thread are not really true! A good player can overcome those "virtual imbalances" and win the game!
Inferno << Necropolis ... dark magic wise, you could say that, but the truth is that Necropolis troops are so weak, that you could defeat them even with one of your creatures being Puppeted! Think of it like this... You will have 13 stacks on the battle field , your opponent controls one of them, you'll still be left with 12 stacks ! And while he wastes his hero's turn with Puppet you Mass Slow / Mass Suffering his troops.
Academy > Dungeon ... protections against magic and stuff like that are almost useless against Dungeon's Iresistable magic, and Academy's spells don't receive huge buffs (Warlock's luck, Elemental Vision, Empowered) like Dungeon's , so I'd say the duel between these two is pretty much equal. Only Magic Mirror is a threat, but the any Dungeon player will cast Area Spells against Academy.
Deleb problem... and Wyngaal too... these heroes are starting to get banned and I think they might need some balancing indeed
Training problem. People often forget to say how much this +13 paladins/ week costs ... it is not a easy thing to do in normal conditions! Yes they are powerfull, but very costy too! I think its the reward the player receives for building such an economy.
Sylvan <<<<<<<<< rushes ... This is not true! It's just that people don't know how to play with them, and it is easier to just shout imbalance. I tried them once on Mystic Vale and they really performed well, even though it was my firsts game on rushy map with sylvan. I think the key to making them succesfull on small maps is Destructive Magic (and Treants!!!!)... A simple Ice Bolt/Circle of Winter + Rain of Arrows combination is very impressive, and if by any chance you get War Machines , you become a killing machine, even more powerfull than Dungeon! The harder part is finding the right favoured enemies, but nobody said it is easy 
When using this strategy, you must have some important abilities in mind : Arcane Exaltation and Arcane Brilliance in mind (+4 spell power means aloooot for a ranger ~= 12 spell power with rain)... maybe even Secrets of Destruction so you can afford rain of Implosions !
So the skill basic skill tree should look like this :
Expert Avenger (with all abilities)
Expert Enlightment (with Arcane Exaltation Tree)
Expert Sorcery (with Arcane Brilliance maybe CounterSpell)
Expert Destructive
Expert Luck -> This one is very important because your troops are good damage dealers , and double damage can hurt plenty
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 19, 2007 06:04 PM |
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Quote:
Many of the imbalances stated in this thread are not really true! A good player can overcome those "virtual imbalances" and win the game!
If you're better, you will win by massing peasants. Does it change the fact that imbalances exist? No.
Quote:
Inferno << Necropolis ... dark magic wise, you could say that, but the truth is that Necropolis troops are so weak, that you could defeat them even with one of your creatures being Puppeted! Think of it like this... You will have 13 stacks on the battle field , your opponent controls one of them, you'll still be left with 12 stacks ! And while he wastes his hero's turn with Puppet you Mass Slow / Mass Suffering his troops.
First of all you lose your best unit, aka arch devil, which also cannot be gated (unless you have the pendant, but I never had it anyway ;P). Second, your nightmares get, say, blinded, and cerberi taken out by lich+wright focusfire. Now, without your three offensive stacks, and with arch devils actually against you, can you win? Most likely, no 
Quote:
Academy > Dungeon ... protections against magic and stuff like that are almost useless against Dungeon's Iresistable magic, and Academy's spells don't receive huge buffs (Warlock's luck, Elemental Vision, Empowered) like Dungeon's , so I'd say the duel between these two is pretty much equal. Only Magic Mirror is a threat, but the any Dungeon player will cast Area Spells against Academy.
Useless? No, halved. It still takes a HUGE chunk of damage away.. When you depend mostly on spells.. and I do.. it kinda limits you. plus puppet master, ofc.
Quote:
Training problem. People often forget to say how much this +13 paladins/ week costs ... it is not a easy thing to do in normal conditions! Yes they are powerfull, but very costy too! I think its the reward the player receives for building such an economy.
Hey, it's not 1.3 or so.. Training is very, very, very cheap with expert trainer and expert counterstrike! You can skip the angels if you wish, getting triple paladins is very easy, and quadruple too if you're a good "economist".
Quote:
Sylvan <<<<<<<<< rushes ... This is not true! It's just that people don't know how to play with them, and it is easier to just shout imbalance. I tried them once on Mystic Vale and they really performed well, even though it was my firsts game on rushy map with sylvan. I think the key to making them succesfull on small maps is Destructive Magic (and Treants!!!!)... A simple Ice Bolt/Circle of Winter + Rain of Arrows combination is very impressive, and if by any chance you get War Machines , you become a killing machine, even more powerfull than Dungeon! The harder part is finding the right favoured enemies, but nobody said it is easy
Yeah, try to stop dungeon with 450% damage(lucky+empowered+artifact) and triple of yours' spellpower with spells. Have fun!
Quote:
When using this strategy, you must have some important abilities in mind : Arcane Exaltation and Arcane Brilliance in mind (+4 spell power means aloooot for a ranger ~= 12 spell power with rain)... maybe even Secrets of Destruction so you can afford rain of Implosions !
Once? You know how much mana it drains? 30% knowledge doesn't mean academy's manapool And that implosions even with 12 SP will still do ~500 damage. A warlock with the things mentioned above and 12 SP will do ~2800 damage Not to mention that by the time you get 12 spellpower the warlock will probably have around 30 )
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 19, 2007 06:50 PM |
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I'll just say this.
War Machines & Destructive magic & some racial skills (like Training) = PERFECT IMBALANCE, contrary to the thread's title.
War Machines work without an army. Destructive Magic works without an army. That is the root of the problem, in fact. Even if most don't realize it and want to remain that way to be unique or something, that's exactly what causes the imbalance. People will always find abuses on this, either rushes or anything else. Even if it's unique, it isn't balanced. Now the question is, do we really want this much unique stuff or more balanced and (for me) funner game.
What do I have in mind? Perhaps nothing.. but I was thinking about destructive spells requiring some army, like boosting some casters with some destructive spells. I dunno, or perhaps army giving SP? I know you'll say it sucks completely, but will probably balance it out (something similar with War machines as well).
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 19, 2007 07:00 PM |
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Hey, I don't like caring for an army too much. One man armies are soo fun to play for me, no way I would want to see that changed
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 19, 2007 07:04 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 19:05, 19 Apr 2007.
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I thought about the stuff since, well, just a few minutes ago
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