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| Thread: THE PERFECT BALANCE. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 21, 2007 10:16 PM |
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its not a problem with a match vs necro , va academy its totally different story. Im just saying this because Destro23 said it will solve all problems i think he forgot about this one.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 22, 2007 12:07 AM |
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Yeah, if those academy have both light and dark magic, mini arties that boost magic defense, those damn counterspell, and nur infinite mana, i can't see any solution, however this is a little impossible without nur in early or mid game, because high level spell from light and dark magic cost like crazy too. It's true that academy heroes have very high knowledge, but even with that, they will easily run out of mana in early and mid game. However academy with MMR is very fun to play.
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted April 22, 2007 12:36 AM |
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Edited by Destro23 at 00:37, 22 Apr 2007.
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hmmm... dungeon is destructive and summoning... but whats the level 1,2,3 3rd spell? is it light? or Dark  ? I propose a second level spell  For this reason. With light and Dark having a cleansing or semi cleansing utility spell at level 2 I believe all towns would have access to some form of cleansing?
And forgive the newbest comment of all... I have some ideas but can someone clarify Exactly what MMR is?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 22, 2007 04:41 AM |
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MMR = multiple magic rush
Exactly that means having few schools of magic killing the map with it and attack your opponent as fast as you can. Basically you use phoenix Armageddon or motwed Implosion for this. As a support you may have light or dark magic. Beside magic skills you need sorcery and enlightenment. You rely mostly on your low lvl creatures and you do your mage guild very fast to gain spells.
EDIT: most recent versions are with war machines instead of light/dark i think
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted April 22, 2007 07:31 AM |
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Thats basically what I thought .. But I wanted to clarify. thanks.
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Plexus22
Known Hero
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posted April 22, 2007 10:01 PM |
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Quote:
Yeah, if those academy have both light and dark magic, mini arties that boost magic defense, those damn counterspell, and nur infinite mana, i can't see any solution, however this is a little impossible without nur in early or mid game, because high level spell from light and dark magic cost like crazy too. It's true that academy heroes have very high knowledge, but even with that, they will easily run out of mana in early and mid game. However academy with MMR is very fun to play.
Yes Academy with MMR is very fun to play
However, I use an MMR+standard hybrid approach because I think MMR in its purest form is too much of a gamble.
BTW good idea with the consume magic spell Destro
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 23, 2007 02:38 PM |
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@Plexus22: Right, pure MMR is gambling, it is better to use a combination/hybrid strategy.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 12:22 PM |
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Quote:
EDIT: most recently versions are with war machines instead of light/dark i think
If I remember correctly, 86wyp suggested leaving destructive aside and taking
summoning
light
enlightment
sorcery
*
where * indeed seems to be warmachines nowadays, although it's probably dark magic against inferno or dungeon.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 06:48 PM |
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Nope actually, he was using armageddon and imposion as main spells, beside phoenix ofc.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 25, 2007 06:58 PM |
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I have a question here:
What is the current situation with the current factions in individual match-ups? I mean, we have discussed some problematic issues, like Sylvan is bad at rushing, which makes it vulnerable towards Dungeon; Dungeon is bad at might, which makes it vulnerable towards magic resistant factions like Academy, etc.
Would it be possible to make a total "map" of the relationsships of all factions - something like:
Haven Inferno Necropolis Dungeon Sylvan Academy
Haven x + + - + =
Inferno
Necropolis
Dungeon
Sylvan
Academy
This is just an example, where I listed that Haven will have the upper hand towards Inferno, Necropolis and Sylvan; will be underdog towards Dungeon, and will be evenly matched with Academy.
Would it make sense to make such a chart - of course it's not exact - but just to give a preliminary impression of whether some factions are overpowered and other underpowered?
I would also like to know why the relationship is so - just a short remark like "Haven vs. Inferno: Haven wins because of Training", or "Haven vs. Dungeon: Haven looses because of lack of rushing and magic counters".
I think such an analysis could be very interesting to gain a picture of how the factions could be changed to obtain better balance - specifically, I would like to see whether introduction of an extra Hero class would be able to effectively patch the gap for each faction, or whether the vulnerabilities are more diverse than to be solved simply by that.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 07:09 PM |
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Since i play dungeon only lately i can tell something about them.
Its not easy to describe because its different on different maps
lets say small maps
Dungeon wins with all except vs academy
Magic at very early stage of the game owns all.
Academy good 1-3 lvl creatures + resistances + counterspell + ballista > magic at this point
On medium (with 2 native castles lets say)
vs sylvan =
vs heaven =
These matchups are quite balanced i must say. Very close.
vs academy-
as usual
vs inferno? (but i guess its +)
I haven't played any game vs inferno but they don't look too scary
vs necro+
They are too slow, hit&runs ftw.
On larger maps its +vs necro and - against all others
In bigger battles your army just dies too quickly.
+ vs necro
the same reason as above.
I don't know how to include this but each matchup have some chances to win with dungeon by having shackless. This faction more than any other is vulnerable to shackless.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 07:12 PM |
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Great idea alci.
This is from my point of view for inferno againts all.
For inferno vs haven: dark magic inferno doesn't even stand a chance, destructive with master of fire+fireball is better. Inferno has a good chance if it can cut haven economies or fight haven at early weeks.
Inferno vs sylvan: destructive path again, dark if they are destuctive sylvan. Inferno can win.
Inferno vs dungeon: absolutely dark. Just don't be trapped with their hit and run, one success hit and run = serious pain. Also survive their rush. If those two points are done, inferno has good chance.
Inferno vs fortress: not that hard, seriously even with their runes, gating do the work.
Inferno vs academy: total defeat if they have dark and light. I have no solution.
Inferno vs necro: there is a chance, but it's not that high, fear their puppet master and frenzy, also blindness.
Inferno vs inferno: depends on player skill and luck.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 07:25 PM |
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Ok, here it goes..
Brief explanation..
haven Beats most factions due to obvious melee superiority: A great synergy of skills, magic and ATT/DEF, plus many great, GREAT units. I'd say it can still lose to dungeon due to powerful magic rush, same to any rush from academy. Inferno with powerleveled deleb may do suprisingly well too, but once haven starts training paladins, you leave.
Sylvan Enjoys a balanced game against most factions IF they can go through the earlygame; And against dungeon, they can't 99% of the time. In the endgame avenger and light magic makes them a scary faction, although haven is obviously better.
Inferno is not a bad faction, but since it's partially might, paritally magic, it does not shine in any of those ways, and the lack of cleansing kills it. Can own fortress with deleb rush easily, though, and can do suprisingly well against sylvan's endgame due to high init of units.
Dungeon offers powerful rushes that can kill the majority of factions, but it loses badly to academy. A smart dwarven player gives them a fair fight.
Necropolis does well against factions based on dark magic or unable to cleanse; It also can do well against academy due to necromancy that boosts total army strength in similar way than mini-arties. The key is to use summoning magic a lot. Can't do much against fast AND deadly factions like haven and sylvan, meteor shower owns it horribly and without any chance to counter it, unless you're loaded with relic-class artifacts.
Academy Is powerful, but requires skill, precision and good thinking. Only haven can stop it in late game.
Fortress is underestimated, but when played correctly it has chances against almost any faction, even endgame haven. Only powerful early rushes from dungeon and deleb-inferno are a real threat to them, although they need insane skill, prediction and tactical planning to uncover their potential. Definitely not a race for noobs.
Aww, messed up the chart: There should a minus instead of plus at fortress vs. inferno matchup.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 07:37 PM |
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Haha , now thats true dungeons fan
But since you take into consideration dungeon rushes perhaps it would be wise to give all + to academy since they beat literally everything in rushes
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 07:42 PM |
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yeah but from what I heard, many academy players prefer to creep/build up arties rather than rush 
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 09:02 PM |
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Yeah, right, i usually build arties first. I'm no academy fans (no expert here), i just use it for fun, and i like the variety of mini arties combo.
Quote:
Fortress is underestimated, but when played correctly it has chances against almost any faction, even endgame haven. Only powerful early rushes from dungeon and deleb-inferno are a real threat to them, although they need insane skill, prediction and tactical planning to uncover their potential. Definitely not a race for noobs.
I don't know why, but i think that Fortress is noob race in term of creeping, just use shield guard, and black bear rider if needed, and make good use of rune of charge, all things become easy.
But for hero build and battle with human opponent, it is the true challenge of this faction, one miscalculation means doom, it need very precise calculation againts human opponent.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 26, 2007 11:13 AM |
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Quote:
Yes, it was exactly something like this I had in mind. Of course, this is only your evaluation, so I know I should not put too much into it, but I still think it shows several interesting points.
First of all, it's obvious that Haven owns almost everything, perhaps with the exception of Dungeon in rushes, because of Training. That is obviously a problem that can - and must - be solved easily.
Second, it's evident that Dungeon will be able to rush practically any faction save perhaps Academy. That is a problem inherent of Destructive Magic, which due to its absolute nature will dominate early game, if you're able to work up a significant Spell Power. This problem is harder to work around, because Destructive Magic cannot easily be changed to be more relative in its nature - the solution would seem to be to inhibit the Warlock in gaining such an abnormal Spell Power as is often the case with the current system. An obvious solution would seen to be the Heroes 3 approach, where the skill progression changed from level 10 and onwards, but a quick examination actually shows that this wouldn't change much: Currently, a level 21 Warlock can expect to have a native Spell Power of 12 (3 + 20*0.45), whereas changing the Spell Power chance to 30 % at 10th level would yield a native Spell Power of 10 (3 + 9*0.45 + 11*0.3), only 2 points of difference.
It seems the problem comes just as much from the Warlocks easy access to Artifacts through the Artifact merchant, and I would suggest that this building was made more expensive for the Warlock (1000 Gold + 5 Wood + 5 Ore is almost a gift - Wizard has to pay 5000 Gold for the same building!) and that it was made so that Relic Artifacts was not offered for sale (like in Heroes 3) - these artifacts are simply so powerful that the occurence of the right Relic in the merchant can determine the outcome of the game. I don't know if this would solve the problem with Dungeon power-creeping, but it would certainly be a step in the right direction.
I find it interesting that Necropolis comes out as one of the apparantly weaker factions due to your analysis here. I understand that Necropolis stands very changed with the new Necromancy system, and apparantly there is much disagreement on whether Necropolis is now underpowered or not - according to your table, it would seem it is, but others have mentioned how strong Necropolis stands when focusing on raising Ghosts. No matter what, it would be really interesting to see what would happen to Necropolis if it was led by a more Might oriented Hero.
Inferno seems to come out as the great loser according to your table, but more interestingly, when you compare the Might factions to the Magic factions, it seems that Might has serious trouble with standing up to Magic (apart from Heaven). I'm not quite sure what to make of this, but it plays very much along with my oppinion that Dark and Light magics are overpowered in all games that don't end with rushing. Considering playing without either of these is literally suicide once you reach end of month two. The Magic factions individually play up pretty evenly, although Academy seems to come up as the actual top dog due to it's great versatily in both countering hostile magic and using both Light and Dark Magic itself. Again, the obvious solution for Dungeon, to go might, might not even be enough, as it is seen that Academy even stands a fair chance towards the Might factions with its combination of Light and Dark Magic.
The more we continue this discussion, the more I want to see what would happen if the dual Hero feature was introduced.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 26, 2007 11:25 AM |
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Quote:
but others have mentioned how strong Necropolis stands when focusing on raising Ghosts.
It's ok when focused on ghosts (spectres that is, ghosts are worthless), and enjoys a balanced game against many factions. However, it still can't beat haven because training is simply more potent than necromancy (ok, it costs gold, but it's 100% reliable: you get what you want, whenever you want and the limit is much higher, I mean, how many wraights can you raise, 3? 4? And how many palas can you train? 13. Go figure.) and because haven has perfect dispel (light magic+palas) that completely disables the dark magic, with light magic to additionaly empower their forces. Simple.
It can't beat dungeon too, simply because incoreporality doesn't work with spells OTherwise it would be a very difficult opponent for dungeon, considering additional phantom forces.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 26, 2007 11:46 AM |
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Quote:
It can't beat dungeon too, simply because incoreporality doesn't work with spells
Maybe I am mistaken, but I actually seem to recall having missed Spectres with spells? 
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 26, 2007 12:06 PM |
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probably with fist of wrath, since it deals physical damage
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