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unixmage
Known Hero
Demon Slayer
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posted October 30, 2007 02:00 PM |
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VS undead I always pick vampire lords. Against anything vampire princes for their extra speed, hp (makes them a lot hardier) and the special torpor that can even trigger on retaliations.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted October 30, 2007 02:21 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 14:22, 30 Oct 2007.
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Many alternatives seem to benefit from each other - like Elemental Gargoyles and Magnetic Golems, also the Vampire Prince is better with Lich Master. Masters Raise Dead compensates for the loss of no retaliation and it doesn´t have the death cloud attack - which will awaken a sleeping unit if you want to shoot a creature next to it.
Haven has some good pairs, like Seraph and Inquisitor (bless), Champion and Zealot (Champion looses Lay Hands and immunity to Frenzy so Cleansing is needed) and so forth.
And the best is that Dungeon gets sucky Brisk Raiders as a counter to Dark Magic. As now when enemy uses Puppet Master he can no longer kill all the Hydras and Dragons in one blow 
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Slapzech
Adventuring Hero
that didn't vote for Kaczynski
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posted November 04, 2007 05:09 PM |
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Edited by Slapzech at 17:09, 04 Nov 2007.
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Now, after we all got some time to actually check the alternative upgrade's in action and determinate their usefullness, and both strong & weak points: I would like to know the opinion of Dungeon players about both Riders upgrade's in ToTE.
1: When do you usually pick Grim/Brisk?
2: How often do You have an occasion to use wheeling attack to it's full potential?
3: In your experiance: Which upgrade's ability is better?
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted November 05, 2007 04:45 PM |
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Quote:
summon pitlord is obviously good ability and strong, and so is alt's ability, picking these depends a lot on the innitiative situation, say your fighting like sylvan or something with the high damage master hunt or arcane alt with no range penalty and they always got very high initiative, summon the pit lords and the hunters/druids will kill them before they get a chance to breathe...maybe even more so with necros because they always have lots skel archers and the liches are high hp shooter/caster so, the pull be better in that kinda situation
oh come on, without tactics, how can you use that useless irresistible pull, also, the most important point is archdemon can't strike in first turn, even with tactics, inferno defence is too weak, it often need to first strike its enemy, even with tactics, archdemon often need to move and waste their turn to use that irresistible pull
if sylvan kills archdevils first, then how about hell stallion, and firebreather, they'll wreak havoc in frontlines, vermin (they have 6 speed compared to familiar) and horned grunt also one of a dangeorus threat
but i must admit, archdemon fighting ability is better than archdevil, sometimes i pick them, imho archdemon is a late game unit, archdevil is good both in early and late game.
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted November 05, 2007 05:26 PM |
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Quote:
1: When do you usually pick Grim/Brisk?
Grim against high Defense armies (Haven, Sylvan, Dwarf, Necro...) and Brisk particularly (strickly?)against Inferno (maybe against Academy with MotW + FF too).
Quote:
2: How often do You have an occasion to use wheeling attack to it's full potential?
Against Inferno army (7 stacks + gated troops) you can easily do good damages.
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3: In your experiance: Which upgrade's ability is better?
Grim is more often better.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 05, 2007 05:30 PM |
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Brisk is good if you actually want to use riders against dark magic.. and dont want to see your own hydras pwned by rider charge.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 13, 2007 03:56 PM |
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masterpost UPDATED with my large and as-boring-as-always analysis. Time to discuss the alternatives again, guys! 
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted November 13, 2007 04:27 PM |
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Quote:
Battlemagi...most of the time you can't make a shot without hurting your own units
Despite the unit description the battle mage shot does not hurt their own units.
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Even though precise shot has many uses
I'm finding precise shot more useful in creeping. Am I way off?
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Lavas: While the firewall isn't the strongest special around
It isn't exactly a firewall. I wish it was, but they didn't hit two squares. The units are almost exactly identical.
Nitpicking aside it's a nice write up.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 13, 2007 04:36 PM |
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Strange. I recall my mages hurting my own troops.. maybe I've confused it with something else.. or it just was my imagination ~~
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Legendary_hero
Known Hero
Stronghold Warchief
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posted November 13, 2007 04:55 PM |
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It doesn't hit only neighboring stacks around the battle mage. Other are hit as usuall
____________
Don't look back because you will...die?
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted November 13, 2007 05:00 PM |
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Whoops, looks like Legendary Hero is right...or rather we're both right.
If the friendly unit is adjacent (touching) the battlemage the shot won't hurt it. If there is space between the shot will hurt it.
edit: dampen magic means enemy mages shots won't hurt adjacent units. (still hurts the mages though).
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted November 13, 2007 06:59 PM |
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So whats people thoughts about Fortress alts?
I have to find many of the alts very good. Naming: Harpooner, Whitebear rider, Rune keeper and the thunder thane is good too...
And well, if they would ever come in a good situation the Mountain guards can be Awesome. but sadly, they wont!
And to be the hardest choice is: Flame Lord or Thunder Thane. Since thunder thane has bad dmg, but he can still kill loads of units, plus his Storm strike is useful.
Flame lord on the other hand got Wicked dmg, Flamewave is pretty usefull when hitting good. So they ain't to complain about.
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted November 13, 2007 07:04 PM |
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I like to combine Mark of Fire with Flame Keepers' Fireball. At least I have it guaranteed with Warlord.
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pinkspear
Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
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posted November 13, 2007 08:12 PM |
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Great work Doomforge! You wrote that Shadow Mistresses deal a bit more damage than matriarchs, but I think they do FAR BETTER damage than the matriarchs, not to mention that finally their whip strike has some uses, also they're more durable due to invisibility and +10 hp.
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Slapzech
Adventuring Hero
that didn't vote for Kaczynski
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posted November 13, 2007 09:04 PM |
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Yeah, good work with the update.
One more thing bothers me - If the shadow mistress actually SHOOTS when Eruina "scores" her speciality. And if so - does it triggers the invisibility off. If both answers are yes - second (imho) best dungeon hero got his potential nerfed.
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted November 13, 2007 09:09 PM |
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some notes on Sylvan alternates:
Dryads vs. Sprites: As soon as I get some treants, definitely Dryads. Their symbiosis tends to be more helpful to themselves than the Treants, and a great way to minimize losses. Sprites are pretty useless when it comes to casting. Sure, they can cast Cleansing... once, and frail like they are, their numbers are probably too small most of the time.
War dancers vs. Wind Dancers: I hated War dancers. They were frail like sprites, their multi-attack is weaker and with retaliation, and they aren't as agile either. Now Wind Dancers are as good as a tier 2 melee can get, and able to be somewhat agressive without getting killed by retaliation.
Master Hunter vs. Arcane Archer: joke indeed. The only advantage for Master Hunters is their Warding Arrow (I haven't seen the Force Arrow pushback seen occur yet), and possibly the better chance to hit incorporal enemies (two shots - if they miss both, the enemies are vulnerable to the next stack).
Elder Druids vs. High druids: I'm actually quite fond of High Druids. Their spellpower bonus has quite an impact considering the low natural spellpower of rangers, especially if you have any plans on using Imbue Arrow (which works with Divine Vengance, btw). Elder Druids on the other hand are better off casting themselves, as the 15 mana provided by them doesn't make that much of a difference for a Ranger, except fairly early on. It would probably be better if it scaled with the stacksize like Channeling does...
Silver Unicorns vs. Pristine Unicorns: I prefer Silver Unicorns by far. Sylvans tend to be fairly vulnerable to damaging spells, so the extra magic resistance can help a lot. Well, if I wasn't so unlucky and rarely see a resist unless it doesn't really matter anyway.
Still, as long as mass spells are in the picture, the amount of spells that affect the PU are fairly limited, regeneration is more useful on treants or dragons, ressurection is probably not used very often considering the elves ultra-offensive layout (and the fact that 9/10 magic guilds seem to carry Word of Light on my games, blargh), and while it's possible to double Magic Immunity on them, it also blocks any further use of the ability.
Savage Treant vs. Ancient Treant: even Savage Tanks with active Rage of the Forest are still sturdy bastards, so I go with them. If I need them to root dangerous enemies, they work just aswell as the Ancient Treants, but also have the option to go offensive.
Emerald Dragons vs. Crystal Dragons: The difference doesn't come as such insane to me, but the fact that their breath never hurts your own stacks is already pretty good. The problem with CD's is that their breath is extremely unreliable, and can fail to hit a dangerous enemy stack behind another where Acid Breath is a 100% chance.
It's awesome when it hits the way you want, but if you are unlucky, you get nothing more than the normal damage on the main target.
Then again, Sylvan with Avenger and Elven Luckis already a more of a gamble than any other faction anyway.
Also a note on Vampire Lords vs Princes: While Princes have better stats, Torpor isn't as reliable as No retaliation. It's great when it triggers, if not, the Princes will get hurt. Higher health somewhat compensates that, but it also makes their Life Drain weaker in comparison. But hey, at least Necropolis gets a reason to get Soldier's Luck (assuming Luck is offered).
____________
In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 13, 2007 10:56 PM |
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Well, as an Elven player, you should aim for max luck. That makes Crystal dragons much more reliable and is a powerful skill on its own.
And Pristines.. perhaps it was just me, but I wasn't offered light magic for three consecutive games. Fortunately, I haven't played against darkmagic user, but.. >__> I quite liked pristines because of that, they absorbed light spells casted by my enemy and suddenly become extremely tough and powerful, with an extra endurance casted by my druids..
Divine Vengeance.. fun spell, but I haven't found much use for it when playing sylvan. Its your castle that kills everything in 1st turn, not your enemy's (unless he's playing sylvan too, that is.. in such case rain of arrows with divine vengeance and a few good favored enemies may actually completely change the tides, even if all your units acted after your enemy's ones)
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SirCharles
Hired Hero
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posted November 13, 2007 11:48 PM |
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Quote from Doomforge original post:
TIER4 Archmagi vs. Battlemagi: oh well. No matter how hard I've tried, battle magi never managed to become serious killers.. ok, they have no range penalty, but their magic attack is still a hindrance, making them totally useless - most of the time you can't make a shot without hurting your own units. I don't understand how dampen magic works, though, but still, I'd choose archmagi - they are excellent auxiliary units, with cleansing and righteous might later in the game, and fireball earlier, agianst rushes and when rushing yourself.
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To clear this up, dampen magic is quite simple. It makes friendly adjacent units immune to the damage of the magic attack of the battle mage. Meaning if you go with a classic turtle formation (tightly surrounding the mages) then you can devastate the enemy and not hurt your "shell" units protecting you. Combined with Arcane Crystals the magic attack of the battle mage is VERY potent. While I also like the fireball with the Archmage, you'll only get off 2 fireballs then they're very vulnerable as they can't shoot AND be protected at the same time. Righteous Might is also missed but again, without being able to adequetly protect the archmages...they drop like flies. Even with Magnetic Golems adjacent to them. Personally, I prefer the battlemages over the archmages. By far.
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Quote from Doomforge:
TIER5 Viziers vs. Sultans: Sultans are slightly tougher, slightly less damaging, and with a slightly better special. Since keeping them alive was the biggest problem, +5 HP seems a blessing for the sultans. Also, if you manage to gamble +3 luck for your titans, things get really fun.
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Ummm...the sultans are NOT slightly tougher. They've got +1 to attack and defense, but fewer hp's, 25% less magic protection AND lack the immunity to air spells. Sorry, but the Viziers are MUCH better units. 75% spell damage reduction is huge, as is the immunity to lightning bolt & chain lightning. This makes casting chain lightning much less risky to your own troops. While there are times that the random blessing is a great choice, there are others when you'll get a spell that simply won't help. But the wheel of fortune is ALWAYS helpful and predictable. You'll get the effect you want (maybe not to the EXTREME that you want...but it'll always work). Viziers...head and shoulders above the Sultans. Even if thier head sits directly ON their shoulders. *grin*
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Quote by Doomforge:
TIER7 Titans vs. Storm Titans. - There is no point of comparing these guys since they are exactly the same.. well, almost - Storm Titans have a lousy special, and Titans have slightly better one - at least it's useful in sieges and when you don't want to make a melee attack.
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Again, I'll have to disagree here. The storm titan's special is NOT lousy. Let's look at call lightning and stormcaller side by side here.
Call lightning deals 30xTitans in damage to one unit. So with 10 titans, you'll deal 300 damage to one unit.
Stormcaller deals 10xTitans in damage EACH turn in a 3x3 area to all units under the storm. So with 10 titans, you'll deal 100 damage to 9 squares for 3 consecutive turns. So if you've got only ONE unit under the storm, you'll do 300 damage in 3 turns (like ignite). That's the exact same damage as Call lightning. Now toss in a few more units under that storm. 4 units under the storm for 3 turns deals out 1200 damage. Yes, yes, the units can move out from under the storm. But they've been forced to use their turn to rearrange their formation to avoid additional damage. That's STILL a bonus in your favor. So a side effect of the stormcaller is that it breaks up turtled formations. Again, a point in favor of stormcaller over call lightning. And then there's the kicker...ranged units under the storm deal (Titans x 1%) less ranged damage while under the storm. So with 10 titans, it's a 10% reduction in ranged damage. So, how many ranged units will want to waste a turn to move out from under the storm to avoid the ranged penalty & storm damage? Most will just want to shoot.
Sorry, but the Storm Titan wins...hands down.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted November 14, 2007 12:27 AM |
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Edited by Minion at 00:28, 14 Nov 2007.
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I believe what Doomforge meant was that both Titans abilities are so rare in usefulness that it doesn't make difference to the battle which you choose. They are 90% of time better off shooting. Against deflect arrowed, shield allied creatures who are turtling behind castle walls it is good though Titan is better against faction that have a few shooters or none (Dungeon, Inferno), where as Storm Titan is better against lets say Fortress, Sylvan and the like.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 14, 2007 09:08 AM |
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Quote:
Quote from Doomforge original post:
To clear this up, dampen magic is quite simple. It makes friendly adjacent units immune to the damage of the magic attack of the battle mage. Meaning if you go with a classic turtle formation (tightly surrounding the mages) then you can devastate the enemy and not hurt your "shell" units protecting you. Combined with Arcane Crystals the magic attack of the battle mage is VERY potent. While I also like the fireball with the Archmage, you'll only get off 2 fireballs then they're very vulnerable as they can't shoot AND be protected at the same time. Righteous Might is also missed but again, without being able to adequetly protect the archmages...they drop like flies. Even with Magnetic Golems adjacent to them. Personally, I prefer the battlemages over the archmages. By far.
Thanks for explanation!
I'd still go with arch mages - expert cleansing over advanced one, righteous might which still packs a lot of punch and mages are lousy shooters anyway - even with that dampen magic and no range penalty, their damage seems small to me, and I'd rather artifice other units and let them do the casting.
Quote:
Ummm...the sultans are NOT slightly tougher. They've got +1 to attack and defense, but fewer hp's, 25% less magic protection AND lack the immunity to air spells. Sorry, but the Viziers are MUCH better units.
Yes, sorry, I meant Visiers, not Sultans, typo here. I agree that they are much better units.
Quote:
Stormcaller deals 10xTitans in damage EACH turn in a 3x3 area to all units under the storm. So with 10 titans, you'll deal 100 damage to 9 squares for 3 consecutive turns. So if you've got only ONE unit under the storm, you'll do 300 damage in 3 turns (like ignite). That's the exact same damage as Call lightning. Now toss in a few more units under that storm. 4 units under the storm for 3 turns deals out 1200 damage.
How often does that happen? How much damage will you do by a simple lucky ranged attack within 3 turns? (not so hard to get lucky atacks with viziers and luck arties even if you don't have luck skill..).. Bah, shooting is better.
Quote:
And then there's the kicker...ranged units under the storm deal (Titans x 1%) less ranged damage while under the storm. So with 10 titans, it's a 10% reduction in ranged damage. So, how many ranged units will want to waste a turn to move out from under the storm to avoid the ranged penalty & storm damage? Most will just want to shoot.
Uhh, on many maps, 10 titans is rather impossible to get before the enemy rushes you or vice versa. So in fact you get only several percent of reduction which doesn't matter that much in the very end - especially when there's only one unit that matters for such damage reduction, and it's called arcane archer. And arcane archer isn't the biggest threat of sylvan army anyway, so.. Yeah, as Minion said. Most players find shooting better, and so do I. And on that rare occasions when I don't, call lightning seems better. Matter of taste really, since those units don't differ even by slightest bit when it comes to stats.
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