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| Thread: Initiative Arties Pissing me off |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Mordaunt5
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 17, 2007 05:07 PM |
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Initiative Arties Pissing me off
Ever played a really long game only to find that your opponent has collected most of the initiative arties and you lose most of your army before you even get to go in final battle? Annoying as hell, isn't it?
These are the times I miss H4 and the games idea of SIMULTANEOUS attacks. I think that was a great idea that was sadly forgotted when they made H5. Initiative arties are way too strong and simultaneous attacks would be a great way to balance that (you might even have a chance vs Wyngal).
I vote for another dimension to the game: Bring back the First Strike abilities (now creature has first strike), the negate first strike. Those mantises and champs were a thing of beauty.
What do you heroes think?
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 05:27 PM |
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I actually like the new initiative system.
It wasn't that fun to play with something like the First Strike.
The creature has clear adventage, it always plays first.
Here, there's a chance that other creatures to play before it.
The game has become more... Flexible.
And yes, many things (like initiative artifacts) can be annoying.
However, I don't think they are overpowered at all.
There are many things that you can do to deal with them:
-Dark spells (Mass Slow!)
-Wizards Artifacts
-Artifacts that reduce the initiative
etc.
If you have a serious problem with them, just try to get them before the enemy gets.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 05:48 PM |
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I didn't like simultenious attacks and first strikes in Heroes 4 but Ring of Speed whit Staff of the Netherworld in Heroes 5 is little too powerfull. Initiative is great addition to the game but 50% initiative gap whit just 3 arties is huge. Artifact merchants here we go 
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PhoenixReborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted May 17, 2007 06:18 PM |
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There is a dwarven skill called preparation which gives all of your creatures first strike. I don't like it much, fortunately there's no chance of the a.i. getting it. What if they cut down the bonuses given by the artifacts..say 5% for ring of celerity and 10% for the staff and the ring.
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 06:45 PM |
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Quote:
There is a dwarven skill called preparation which gives all of your creatures first strike. I don't like it much, fortunately there's no chance of the a.i. getting it. What if they cut down the bonuses given by the artifacts..say 5% for ring of celerity and 10% for the staff and the ring.
That would make them weak..
those two things (staff and ring) ain't overpowered by themselves.. they just get too poweful in tandem.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 17, 2007 06:51 PM |
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That makes Haste and Slow overpowered as well  (no cleansing please!)
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Beowolf
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 08:16 PM |
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Sorry, clensing is a painful clash with reality But even if it is cast, it wont be able to remove slow/haste from all stacks.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 17, 2007 10:30 PM |
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I still say it's also a matter of availibility. It is a problem that you can get those artifacts so easily through Artifact Merchants - remember Heroes 3, where you would not be able to buy Relics in Merchants, that made them much rarer, which I think is a good thing (except of course Utopias, but still).
I had a game yesterday, where my Hero had Ring of Speed, Ring of Cele(b)rity and also all my creatures had +20 % Initiative minis, and then I had the greaves that gave me Slow immunity plus expert Mass Slow. I didn't have the Haste spell, but still, Hero was completely immobilized.
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What will happen now?
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dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
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posted May 17, 2007 11:33 PM |
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IMO the prices of most artifacts are just too low, not only for the staff and the ring... I mean only 12000 gold for Lion Crown? That artifact substitutes 4 skill points, and for might armies morale and luck are the most important stats anyway (besides initiative)
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open source for an open mind
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 11:40 PM |
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I had 3-4 games, academy versus sylvan...
Academy have +40% from knowledge, 20% ringof speed, 10% ring of celerity, -20% on my staff of netherworld...
I almost didn't move entire game!!!! 
I remember staff wasn't available in multi player games until 1.4, now the combination of staff and ring totally spoils a game imo ..
I really hope ubi can do something about that..
Maybe increase price of staff to 60k for example 
Or remove either artifact
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Olo
Hired Hero
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posted May 17, 2007 11:48 PM |
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The clue is simple-just interdict having them both. player should choose staff of nethersomething( forget the name ) OR ring of speed
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dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
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posted May 17, 2007 11:57 PM |
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I doubt it could work like that. What if one player buys Ring of Speed at the merchant and gets the staff later from a utopia? The money he spent on the ring would all have been wasted...
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open source for an open mind
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 18, 2007 12:39 AM |
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Simple: Make it Staff of Netherworld and Staff of Speed. Voilá.
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What will happen now?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 18, 2007 01:11 AM |
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Meh.. NO
Staff and ring are overpowered together or separate, period.
Haste and slow work after hero cast it not from beginning of combat, can be dispelled countered and many other , there is nothing to be done bout those artifacts. Oh and it can be combined along with those spells (combined means multiplied )which results in sick numbers.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 18, 2007 08:44 AM |
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then they should be additive, that's all
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted May 18, 2007 11:15 AM |
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Very good idea 
Staff of netherworld and staff of speed all occupies the same slot, so only 1 can be worn...
Wonder if the game makers will read this thread?
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betruger
Known Hero
empowered mind
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posted May 18, 2007 01:27 PM |
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Staff and ring are SO MUCH better than haste because they simply work from the beginning of combat.
As you can read in manual, initiative is being accumulated during combat. So you can think of it as an empty jar that gets filled with a luquid (initative) during combat-time.
If a unit has, say, 10 initiative that means it fills its jar quicker than unit with 9 initiative. In a given moment of time more liquid is poured into the jar.
The thing is: when you cast a haste spell with hero, all the creatures have almost full jars of initiative (most units have even acted before hero), so yeah, your units will have greater speed of filling their jars, but the jars are almost full anyway.
So one can say that mass haste indeed gives more bonus that ring of speed, but it starts to act in second turn of combat (assuming that one turn of combat is the time that passes between movement of the same creature with 10 initiative, like your hero. At this time most of your army may be dead already, we all know how important first round of combat is)
Whereas with artifacts like ring of speed, the initiative increases from the very beginning, from point 0, when all the jars are empty.
Those who say that you can counter those artifacts with mass haste/mass slow also are forgetting that your opponent also can cast those spells. So ring + staff + mass slow is way better than just mass slow. Way better.
In most cases ring of speed + staff of nether = autowin
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Mordaunt5
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 18, 2007 03:05 PM |
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Well the point I had was the great initiative can be somewhat combatted if units had simultaneous strikes, like in H4. No takers on that?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 18, 2007 03:11 PM |
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Oh right. Defenders get the first retaliation and then keep getting beat until their turn finally comes...That would only work to soften the attackers for the first strike but initiative would still win the game most of the times.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 18, 2007 03:16 PM |
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Quote:
Well the point I had was the great initiative can be somewhat combatted if units had simultaneous strikes, like in H4. No takers on that?
True, but it's a bad solution imo. I hated the Heroes 4 system because it completely removed the tactical element of planning the game - whether you attacked opponent, or opponent attack you didn't matter, you were going to suffer the same damage. 
Oh, and another thing: Making it a Staff of Speed would also have another advantage: It would ocupy an artifact slot that's more important. You can only have one artifact in your right hand, whereas you can have two rings, and generally right-hand artifacts are important, because they add to your attack. This would not make Ring/Staff of Speed less powerful, but it would mean it was more likely you had to give up on something else to have it.
Oh yes, and great idea to make them additive. Doesn't change much in most cases, but those few instances where you have a lot of things that stack, it would, and that's when the current games go really broken.
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What will happen now?
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