|
| Thread: Opinions and strats for heroic co-op play | |
|
seabas
Tavern Dweller
|
posted June 25, 2007 05:45 AM |
|
Edited by seabas at 00:09, 26 Jun 2007.
|
Opinions and strats for heroic co-op play
I only play on Heroic, usually co-op with a friend and no reloads. The games are 2v3, 2v4, 2v5, or even 2v6. It's tough. When you play with the odds so stacked against you, you learn what's good.
After browsing these forums it seems a lot of players are under the impression that Haven and Sylvan are very strong, or that the races are generally balanced.
This thread is to share effective strategies in tough co-op games against the computer.
How I rank the races, and what works in tough games:
1. Inferno with Deleb is just plain overpowered, and rarely fun. A well executed rush against the computer within the first couple of weeks will determine the entire game, even if there's 4 or more computers left alive.
House rules is no Deleb. Without Deleb, Inferno is one of the hardest races to play on Heroic.
2. Fortress. Shieldguards are insane. Ingvar + Shieldguards is almost overpowered. Last night I took out a level 14 sylvan hero, green dragons and all, with nothing more than level 14 Ingvar and about 120 Shieldguards. I had more than 60 guards left at the end.
Okay, that's overpowered combined with the fact taht dwarves really don't have a weakness. Fortress moves up to 2nd place.
Runes make it even easier, letting your Shieldguards move across the field in one turn or attack twice. Abusing Shieldguards, you can literally go straight for Warlords and Dragons. Use the extra resources to tech town hall, runes and spells.
Dwarves develop with the right mix of stats, so it's really easy to build a powerful endgame hero.
3. Necromancers. Necros and Raise Dead used to be on a cheesy-level next to using Deleb. Raise Dead has since been nerfed. It's still insanely good, just not silly broken.
Although not considered cheating, like using Deleb, it's an unspoken house rule to avoid playing Necros.
Feel free to sacrifice zombies. Be careful not to lose any skeletons in the first three weeks. If you can manage to gather a horde of 400+ you'll probably win.
Go straight for Vamps. Don't waste your limited resources on anything else but Vamps until you can afford it.
A Necro's real weakness is a lack of mana. Because heroic difficulty forces you into a non-stop creep for resources and experience, you don't have the extra turns to hit your castle and recharge maana. Success requires conveniently placed wells or lots of mana.
Zoltan is the safe choice because he starts with Enlightenment.
4. Academy. Academy units aren't the best. It doesn't matter, because their heroes are great. Like dwarves, mages develop nicely, and several heroes will serve you well.
Jhora is my favorite. You can immediately creep with her effectively and rarely stop. Once built up, Jhora is a force to fear.
Abuse gargoyles against slower units. Meaning, run them around the map while shooting with your hero.
I prefer just using gremlins and gargs when possible, going straight for rakashas. Essentially, Academy units are there just for hit points at higher levels. You'll win your battles with superior magic, not superior units. If you can make to it Resurrection the game will probably be in the bag.
5. Dungeon. Dungeon is the most balanced for Heroic play. If you win, it means you are legitimately a good player.
At first glance Dungeon seems the most powerful, with best magic and units, but when you take into account their mana constraints and unit production, it's a pretty tough game. This means you have to play well.
For example, if your Blood Maidens die in the first week, you'll be screwed in week two. If you're screwed in week two, you'll be dead in week three.
Dungeon heroes are magic wrecking balls. Their spells are devastating. Their problem is a lack of mana to cast their devastating spells with enough regularity to keep up a constant creep. This is solved by choosing Yrwanna.
Yrwanna gives you Intelligence to start with and Furies. Furies will be your bread and butter for about two weeks. After about the third week, Furies will just starting dying a lot.
Upgrade to Blood Maidens ASAP. Don't be afraid to get your Scouts killed. Minos suck, and aren't worth the resources.
6. Sylvan. Sylvan have some really good units. Their main problem revolves around their heroes lacking a real punch, and to boot, their powerful units are generally expensive and limited.
Ossir is a must for his hunters. If you can get lucky and hire Vinrael right away, use him as your new main hero.
Hunters are great, we all love them. But in most games, using pixies correctly on the first two weeks is the most impoortant thing. Upgrade them ASAP, and abuse slower units to your advantage or spread them out for some magic action during that first week of creeping.
Don't bother with Rain of Arrows (something I tested out last night). In general, the Avenger skills are too situation and too much of an investment to be worth much on heroic difficulty. Imbue arrow and Deadeye works well enough, but if it looks like you're getting enough spellpower, grab Sorcery instead.
If you manage to get Resurrection, you'll probably win.
The few co-op games I've won with Sylvan usually required a lot of succesful castle defense. You cannot push offensively with Sylvan like other races. Sylvan are great for castle defense, so lure the computer into a siege trap when possible, then counter-attack.
7. Haven. Overall, Haven probably has the strongest units. Benediction is awesome. Although I have never played on Normal, I'm guessing Haven is a beast when you have a cushy amount of starting resources while fighting against a computer that can't keep up with your supply.
I enjoy Haven, as it's a huge challenge. When the game first was released I played Haven almost exclusively. We usually always lost, but if I manage a 2v4 with Haven, it literally means each move made pre-level 15 was perfect.
Like Sylvan, the few wins I've had with Haven revolve around a game of cat-and-mouse castle defense. If I make it to Resurrection without losing the majority of my army while beating back some of their sieges, I'll probably win. As most things, it's easier said than done.
My favorite hero is Lazlo. Footmen are much better than people give them credit for. Beat stuff up with them, get them beat up, and expand as much as you can early game. You'll need as many resources as you can, as for most of the game, the strength of your army... depends upon the strength of your army, not the magic of your hero.
Focus on a post week three army of Footmen, Cavaliers, and if possible, Angels.
Skills:
Choose Enlightment every time it pops up. Enlightment is the best skill, period. The attribute points alone make it worth it. Intelligence is absolutely needed for the majority of heroes on this difficulty. The experience bonus is the cherry on top, and the sooner you eat this cherry, the better.
Sorcery and Arcane Training is also essential for magic heroes, especially heroes with small mana pools.
Don't bother with War Machines. Leadership is a waste, unless you need it for a really good special ability. Summoning Magic isn't worth it. Pick Logistics if your other options suck on level up.
The general idea is to pick skills that will give practical results. Try to build up Enlightment first before picking magic skills, as once you pick a magic skill it will crowd your level up selection with less than interesting abilities.
Give me your feedback. Agree, disagree? What works for you? Remember, this is for out-numbered heroic co-op games only.
____________
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted June 25, 2007 09:24 AM |
|
|
Quote:
5. Dungeon.
Dungeon heroes are magic wrecking balls. The problem is, they have big mana problems, just like necros. This is solved by choosing Yrwanna.
Yrwanna gives you Intelligence to start with and Furies. Furies will be your bread and butter for about two weeks.
Except she occasionally does not get destructive early...Used to be my favourite hero 
Quote:
6. Sylvan.
Try to build your hero to use Destruction Magic with Rain of Arrows + Imbue Arrow or with Sorcery.
Afaik imbue arrow does not work with sorcery but in any case there are better strategies that fast casting with sylvan.
Quote:
Don't bother with War Machines. Leadership is a waste, unless you need it for a really good special ability. Summoning Magic isn't worth it. Pick logistics if your other options suck on level up.
I rarely play heroic but warmachines are pretty good with some factions, say academy, inferno, haven, sylvan even more so when you pick specialized heroes. A triple ballista or flaming arrows can be terrifying and after all the ballista is repaired when you lose it with the ballista perk.
Leadership with haven(retribution) and on a lesser extent with fortress and maybe sylvan seems to work well. At least fortress with good morale increases the thanes and bears's usefulness.
Summoning with necropolis or academy is very good imo. An early exp firetrap cannot be guarded against, neither by neutrals nor by human players. Wasp swarm, raise dead, phantom forces are good enough until you can get a phoenix, especially if you have a vault/utopia/pyramid.
That said I generally agree with your assessment
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
sq79
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 25, 2007 10:41 AM |
|
|
Map length ? If there are lots of retreats and fights early on, maybe war machines is a must as additional fire power for haven,inferno, sylvan (if lucky) and academy
I agree on the ossir then swooped to vinrael tactic if both are available, vinrael with englightment gets 2% skills boosted to 4% and also levels up very fast!
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted June 25, 2007 10:48 AM |
|
|
Since he mentioned cat-and-mouse castle defense I assumed that the maps weren't too large or that with that many players there are early skirmishes.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
|
|
posted June 25, 2007 06:15 PM |
|
|
What exactly is the purpose in changing to Vinrael for your main?
Enlightenment is a common skill for Rangers anyway. Ok, he might get 1-2 more levels than other heroes with his special, but is that really worth it? I mean Ossir's special is very nice, too...
|
|
seabas
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted June 26, 2007 12:22 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Yrwanna.
Except she occasionally does not get destructive early...Used to be my favourite hero
She definitely isn't my favorite hero, but she's the only dungeon hero I've consistently won tough heroic game with. With other dungeon heroes it's too dependant on luck. Those first couple weeks and 10 hero levels are especially crucial for dungeon players.
Quote:
Afaik imbue arrow does not work with sorcery but in any case there are better strategies that fast casting with sylvan.
I meant Rain of Arrows + Imbue OR Sorcery. Get Destructive Magic either way. However, after testing last night, I realize that Rain of Arrows + Imbue combo just isn't worth the investment. Always try for fast casting instead.
Quote:
warmachines, leadership, etc.
You're right, it depends. But usually these skills aren't worth the investment considering the other options available.
Rise to Power is a great challenging map to learn heroic with a friend. If you need a link about modifying maps so they're co-op, just tell me.
Thanks for the feedback. =)
____________
|
|
seabas
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted June 26, 2007 12:28 AM |
|
|
Quote:
What exactly is the purpose in changing to Vinrael for your main?
Enlightment really is that good. Starting with it really helps. Mid-to-end game, having 2 extra levels, possibly more stat points, mana, etc. is a much greater advantage than more attack power and defense with hunters.
There were some questions about maps I play. I prefer playing the 5-7 player maps co-op with a friend. I'm not a huge fan of the extra large maps with undergrounds, either. They take way too long. Usually in the third week is when the **** starts to fly.
____________
|
| |
|
|
