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| Thread: A Guiding Christian |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
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Doomforge
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posted March 02, 2009 06:07 PM |
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Quote:
@Doomforge i agree with you that we have free will. I was only refering to this two storyies where people had to choose live like you want and die in horrible catastrophy or live like gods want which sound to me like ultimatum.
But in those stories, they also had free will. They could choose the option they wanted. Free will doesn't mean "no consequences". 
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Nebdar
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Generation N
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posted March 02, 2009 06:32 PM |
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@Doomgorge I agree too but It is only the ultimatum thing. And yes it is an freedom of choosing from two solutions and punish them before they die "naturaly". IMO the freewill comes when you can choose to not play with the god game and it's rules ( so choice number 3,4 and so on). The freewill comes when somebody respects your decison of will. With slaves the master can do anything it wants. Yes the slaves are free the can do what master says to do or die some choice but an choice 
@Consis and Father I thought that when you say I'm (put an religion in here) the member of follower of the way must agree/belive in all the teachings of that religion. & what i have read from your post you picked what you think is the best from the religious expierience and you live by this rules. Does that make you creators of new religion ?
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Doomforge
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posted March 02, 2009 06:37 PM |
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I see your point. Still, for ultimate freedom, there would have to be no good or evil, no bans, absolute anarchy. You're free to do whatever you want in such system, there is no consequence of any choice, yes, but is it good? Not really..
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Nebdar
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Generation N
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posted March 02, 2009 06:42 PM |
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Quote:
Still, for ultimate freedom, there would have to be no good or evil, no bans, absolute anarchy. You're free to do whatever you want in such system, there is no consequence of any choice, yes, but is it good? Not really..
Is it just me or this sounds like real world description for some people with power ...
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Nebdar
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Generation N
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posted March 03, 2009 12:31 AM |
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@Father even if you didn't understand the question you answered like you had 
So in other words you an Consis choose the best things from all known religions and spirtual movements and you are making your "personal" religion, guide lines what type of human i wanna be and how i am gona do it...
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Elodin
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posted March 03, 2009 01:00 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 01:12, 03 Mar 2009.
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Quote:
Omg you cant tell your children to believe in some religion or influence them in anything like that.
They should choose themself, not be influenced, forced, brainwashed and manipulated by their parents.
And from reading the first post.
This means I can flame all religions except buddhism (because it isnt a religion to be honest) and you cant say anything to oppose me?
All parants teach children about God with their words as well as with their actions. If you never go to church and God plays no role in your life you are teaching them that God does not exist. Even if you don't make any specific comments about God or bash believers in God.
It is ludicrous to say that religious people should not teach their children about their understanding of God. Atheists influence the religious beliefs of their children just as much as believers do.
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There were always power hungry men corrupting things. You won't find the ultimate truth in the Bible, because of that. You have to discover it for yourself.
I also did some research on that stuff, and came to a conclusion that nothing can ultimately make me an atheist because there is an explanation for everything.
I believe in God and I enjoy it.
Scholarship does not support your conclusion. We know that we have the original words of the Bible to 99.9% accuracy because of textual critisism.
http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Integ/B-0701.htm
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On the average, Old Testament documents yield about one variation per page of text; New Testament manuscripts yield only a tenth of one percent variance. In other words, 99.9% of those manuscripts are in perfect agreement.
Though an occasional scribe altered a text to be copied, the resulting deviant copy constitutes only an infrequent departure from the plethora of copies available for corroborating comparison. Even as later copyists unknowingly passed on certain aberrations, appeals to still earlier or more reliable documents still preserve the original message.
Thanks to textual criticism and on-going archaeological discoveries, even as time passes far beyond the date of the original writings, we may be confident that the Bible of today is a fully trustworthy duplication of the original autographs.
Quote:
@Doomforge i agree with you that we have free will. I was only refering to this two storyies where people had to choose live like you want and die in horrible catastrophy or live like gods want which sound to me like ultimatum
@Mytical Yes as the people change the god is also changing.
Free will does not mean no consequences for your actions. You are free to make your own decisions but with those decisions come a reaping what you sow. Sometimes the havest is in both this life and in the life to come.
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted March 03, 2009 01:09 AM |
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@Nebdar: What you describe is free will without consequences.
Do I have free will if I decide to beat up the cop next street with his partner near (and so get my ass kicked and cuffed )?
You bet that I have free will, since I CAN attack a cop. This doesn't mean it is without consequences (and losing my freedom in jail ). It is free will but with consequences, in fact it's one of THE requirements for free will.
How can it be called 'choice' when the consequences are the same? It cannot.
@Father:Quote:
IS IT RIGHT FOR PARENTS TO "FORCE THE FAITH"
Short answer: No.
However that is "FORCE" not "TEACH", the latter's answer being: Yes.
Despite what you may think, I'm more philosophical than religious as I rarely attend any religious ceremonies or whatever they're called in english.
Also I know parents who try to force their tradition, culture, or their personal PREFERENCES (the worst thing) on their children. Even in science there are always arguments, yet most schools do not just "teach" you how to think, but actually FORCE you which theory to use -- else you won't score on that exam. Fundamental problem IMO.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Elodin
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posted March 03, 2009 01:20 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 01:23, 03 Mar 2009.
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Elodin what is your point? That it is ok to force children to go to church?
What exactly is ludicrous? I never stated that parents should not teach their children about "God". Further more, not going to church is in NO WAY not teaching your children about God, & it most certainly does not mean that your teaching them there IS no God. ROFL!! That is just absolutely absurd IMO.
Never mind, I just figured out what is ludicrous.
I was responding to the below statement that parents should not influence their children in any way to believe in a religion.
"Omg you cant tell your children to believe in some religion or influence them in anything like that.
They should choose themself, not be influenced, forced, brainwashed and manipulated by their parents."
The not going to church part was just an example. If God plays no role in your life, as I also said, you are teaching them God does not exist or at least that if he does he is of no importance to their lives. Every parent (not just religious parents) knowingly or unknowingly teaches their children their belief/disbelief in God by their deeds and words. That is the point I was trying to make.
If if you go to church it is up to you to decide whether or not to "force" your child to go to church. Do you "force" your children to eat their vegetables or do anything else? Do you force them to clean up their room and do their chores? Do you force them to do their schoolwork that they are required to complete at home?
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Nebdar
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Generation N
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posted March 03, 2009 01:31 AM |
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Edited by Nebdar at 01:32, 03 Mar 2009.
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In my country when you start going to primary school first class ( 7 yeras old kid) there is an Religion Lessons (Rome-Catholic) where a priest talks, teaches, and makes quizes about Bible the Ten and other type commandments. Almost all of the children from the class atttend to such lesson. In most cases parents want that their children to be raised in the same fate as they are, some are doing this because the majority of our society does.
From my expierience putting the religion and lessons like math, chemistry, polish in the same place is an bad idea. The knowledge and the wisdom of religion is putted on the same level of reality and importance. I mad now that someone has made me to belive and learn about things before i could realize what they had putted in my head.
This is from John Meslier Testament
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Religion is handed down from fathers to children as the property of a family with the burdens. Very few people in the world would have a God if care had not been taken to give them one. Each one receives from his parents and his instructors the God which they themselves have received from theirs; only, according to his own temperament, each one arranges, modifies, and paints Him agreeably to his taste.
The brain of man is, especially in infancy, like a soft wax, ready to receive all the impressions we wish to make on it; education furnishes nearly all his opinions, at a period when he is incapable of judging for himself. We believe that the ideas, true or false, which at a tender age were forced into our heads, were received from nature at our birth; and this persuasion is one of the greatest sources of our errors.
Prejudice tends to confirm in us the opinions of those who are charged with our instruction. We believe them more skillful than we are; we suppose them thoroughly convinced themselves of the things they teach us. We have the greatest confidence in them. After the care they have taken of us when we were unable to assist ourselves, we judge them incapable of deceiving us. These are the motives which make us adopt a thousand errors without other foundation than the dangerous word of those who have educated us; even the being forbidden to reason upon what they tell us, does not diminish our confidence, but contributes often to increase our respect for their opinions.
The instructors of the human race act very prudently in teaching men their religious principles before they are able to distinguish the true from the false, or the left hand from the right. It would be as difficult to tame the spirit of a man forty years old with the extravagant notions which are given us of Divinity, as to banish these notions from the head of a man who has imbibed them since his tenderest infancy.
And i agree mostly with that above 
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mvassilev
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posted March 03, 2009 05:21 AM |
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Quote:
If God plays no role in your life, as I also said, you are teaching them God does not exist or at least that if he does he is of no importance to their lives.
How's that? 
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JollyJoker
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posted March 03, 2009 07:42 AM |
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Agree with Nebdar's last quote. Forcing children to take part in rituals they don't understand is brain-washing. This would be true if there was only one world-religion, but it's especially true when there are more than one.
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Mytical
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posted March 03, 2009 08:50 AM |
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You mean like the ritual of 'the talk' (about sex and drugs)? Sorry, couldn't resist. Personally I think that a child should be brought up with all the information, not just part of it. Show them all the various religions (though by all means skip the ones that involve human sacrifices), including atheism and let them decide for themselves.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 03, 2009 09:12 AM |
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Giving all available information is not quite the same than being inducted into specific rituals, obviously, so I don't think we disagree.
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angelito
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posted March 04, 2009 01:05 PM |
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Quote:
If God plays no role in your life, as I also said, you are teaching them God does not exist or at least that if he does he is of no importance to their lives.
I disagree. If I don't tell my kids about football, it does not mean football doesn't exist, NOR it won't play an important role in THEIR life later on. It just doesn't play a role in MY life. And that's a hugh difference. When the kids are old enough, they will hear things about religion in school or read something in a book, in the internet etc... They will start to ask (when they are interested) and then they get specific answers from MY point of view.
But why should I waste time to talk with my kids about things I don't care about BEFORE they get knowledge and interest about those topics themselves?
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DeadMan
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posted March 04, 2009 03:59 PM |
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Whether parents should teach their children about religion depends on the surrounding culture. If the people around are generally spiritual and are of diverse faiths, then the parents don't have to do much. But if everyone around is fanatically devoted to one religion - or are atheists - then the parents should nudge their children into a spiritual direction.
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DeadMan
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posted March 09, 2009 03:02 PM |
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But attending a religious function would be a major part of learning about a religion.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 09, 2009 03:16 PM |
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DeadMan
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The True Humanitarian
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posted March 10, 2009 02:51 PM |
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JollyJoker:
Because religions tend to have religious functions of some sort, and to fully learn about a religion, attending one is advisable.
Father:
You may be right. I don't know.
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I don't matter. You don't matter. But we matter.
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del_diablo
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posted March 10, 2009 03:14 PM |
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Hmmmm, i think of it this way: Baptists are OK, atleast in comparision to the ones that forces the childeren into their church before they got a clue on what color orange is.
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