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| Thread: Secrets Of Mana |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 29, 2007 01:44 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:48, 06 Oct 2013.
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Secrets Of Mana
The magic system has always been an integral part of heroes, starting with H1 and always changing with each installment, becoming more imaginative and better detailed-balanced. Of course we could not have it otherwise as the series is named Might and Magic 
The practice of magic is usually associated with the forces of chaos, something to be mastered so as to moderate and hopefully eliminate potential undesired effects. Not in heroes. One of the things I have always liked is that it leaves almost nothing to luck. You know what each spell does, how you can use it, its duration and when to use it something that adds a depth to it and numerous spell combinations and strategies.
Halfway through the series it became a tradition that spells should be divided into distinct schools of magic, another good move imo. Naturally certain schools are more associated with certain towns which makes them more diverse and of course eliminates the randomness in spell availability. But there is also the feel that a hero has to achieve a certain mastery to cast some specific spells at increased effectiveness.
But let's see more specifically:
Heroes of Might and Magic
That was a decent start. Spells are learnt by studying the mage guilds(after buying a spellbook ) that are built and upgraded in one's town. They are divided in combat spells(buffs, curses, offensive) and adventure where it helps through divination(heroes, mines etc) or movement(town portal, dimension door  ). There are no skills or a mastery in the spells, what makes spellcasters stand out from warriors are the spellpower and knowledge. Spellpower as we all know increases the spell effectiveness and duration but knowledge for that game showed how many times you could cast the specific spell before 'unlearning' it. Afterwards you had to learn it again from the guild so if you had to swap towns with an opponent it was annoying.
There were 4 levels in the guild.
Heroes 2 of Might and Magic
While H2 introduced the skills there is still no spell mastery but some skills now affect spellcasting. Wisdom allows the learning of higher level spells(3, 4 and 5), eagle eye gives a chance to learn a spell by observing the enemy caster's invocations and mysticism increases the mana regeneration. Some heroes have an affinity with magic so apart from gaining more spellpower and knowledge they have more chance to learn those skills or even start with them as the wizards with advanced wisdom. Knowledge changes and now measures the amount of mana the heroes can have.
Oh and about the mastery? I was not totally right by saying there isn't. There are stronger and weaker versions of some spells with the notable example of resurrect and resurrect true. Or town gate compared to town portal! A fifth mage level is added as well as more spells.
  
Heroes 3 of Might and Magic
This game had some of the most important additions, spellcasting is a whole different field now and one that needs some energy to invest on if it is to be effective. There are a lot more skills apart from the H2 ones:
Sorcery that (slightly)increases the spell damage, intelligence that increases the maximum spellpoints, scholar that allowed spell exchanging, resistance that allows the hero to occasionally resist hostile spellls and of course the four element schools - fire, water, air and earth magic.
Advancing the spell mastery reduces their cost, increases their effectiveness and unlocks a mass version for some. Did I mention that some heroes have a specific spell specialty and may start with powerful spells? ^^
Unfortunately change also brought negative things. Some schools were simply better than others with earth and air becoming a must for large maps. Fire just took the wrong end of the stick, a pity as I loved expert curse  And once someone got hold of a specific spell at expert, say town portal or dimension door the advantage was tremendous. Also immensely fun when you got them but that's another story. I still miss them even if I know it's for the better
     
   
I feel nostalgic already...Anybody managed to enable that AB fear(disabled) spell? 
Heroes 4 of Might and Magic
This was one heck of a change! Now you truly felt you were specializing in a spacific magic school, getting to expert required around 13 levels  The elements idea is abandoned and instead the schools now match the faction's ethos. We therefore have life, death, order, chaos and nature. Each level corresponds to the mage guild so advanced light would teach you a lvl 2 light spell. Wisdom became obsolete this way.
Life spells focused on protection, blessing, healing, resurrecting and warding against other factions.
Death on the other hand was bent on cursing, raising undead...among other things 
Order was about illusion, cursing and mind control maybe even a bit evocation. I still remember the imbalance ^^
Chaos was about destructive damage, cursing and a bit of blessing - very damaging!
Naturally nature revolves round summoning and blessing. Summoning that stacks!
There was even a new set of spells that came through the simultaneous study of nature and death magic that gave demon summoning spells. If there is one thing you cannot blame H4 with is the lack of creativity On part I should mention the spell descriptions that were simply brilliant!
Apart from the faction's primary scool there were two more you could learn through annexes at minimal cost. That said the mage guild cost was quite low. No spellbook required either, just having the appropriate skill is enough.
What I did not like however was how the skills progressed. The skill mastery increased up to grandmaster(lvl 5) with an ability that increased the magic effectiveness and one that gave mana and better spellpoint regeneration. Different names for each faction, exactly the same function. To get advance the magic skill you had to invest in those. There was also a unique ability that you had access with each magic as summoning(nature), necromancy(death), resurrection(life), sorcery(chaos) and charm(order).
It felt as if there was no creativity in skill-picking even if there were combinations that changed your class 
That and the fact that it was totally unbalanced. You could hypnotize your enemy's units and sacrifice them to resurrect your troops. That was EVIL.
     
Hmm I should replay that one, it's been too long.
Heroes 5 of Might and Magic
Just when you think it's over things stir up again. The number of skills is not as high as in H3 and while the mastery drops back to expert there is far more customization in the magic department. The schools have changed again but are similar to H4. Now we have light, dark, summoning and destructive magic. Other magic skills are sorcery that now increases casting speed(hallelujah!) and enlightenment that is the H3 learning's penance. It's mostly regarded a magic skill because it unlocks intelligence, scholar and arcane intution. Also, some previous skills were incorporated into others as abilities - a splendid idea.
On to the schools.
Destructive is the chaos variant minus the cursing and buffing spells. You just go around blasting and frying things. The twist is that specific elemental spells apply certain effects with the right mastery: Ice can cause freezing, lightning stunning and fire has armour breaking effects.
Summoning is a strange mix. It deals with raising, summoning and cloning for the most part.
Light is all about blessing, protection, dispelling and resurrecting.
And dark is cursing all the way Has some nasty mind spells as well.
Hammers of Fate introduced a different kind of magic, the runes. They may be activated on each dwarven unit's turn and consume resources instead of mana. They imbue them with various effects, usually remnants of older spells and bring a very tactical side to the units by enhancing their already tricky abilities. The interesting part is that they can be used in conjunction with 'regular' magic for more combos.
Now each faction has two favoured schools so it's impossible to get other high level spells from the mage guild without a library(academy only) or special adventure locations. The level of each magic increases its effectiveness while its respective abilities customize how its spells will work. Some give mass versions to some spells, others strengthen them or unlock new spells. Spells learnt though abilities were different from those you learn in the guild, for instance fire warriors gave you summon elementals that always summons fire elementals with a 40% stack boost.
The adventure spells have been nerfed so as to avoid the H3 imbalances but that's not all there is to it. Now you must have the appropriate hero level to learn so everyone can learn town portal. They do not take place in your normal mage guild and always appear something for which I'm grateful.
Another interesting part is that spellcasting units have a specific mastery but also a logarithic formula in determining spellpower that is not linear. That way we avoided the H4 imbalances like the genie's powerful icebolt or illusion spell but this also made spellcasters weak in stronger armies.
What is most striking is the low number of spells. Unfortunately the balance of the game depends on certain spells so many more would break it. Tribes of the East could not add more than 2 spells per school and it seems most prudent. Summoning is already in bad position as getting fist of wrath, earthquake and summon elementals may get you in deep waters. Not to mention its high mana cost. Hopefully it will be in better shape with the inclusion of the new spells.
Also why did they have to change the spell names..?
That said while I love the new system something is missing.
   
   
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted July 29, 2007 10:11 AM |
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You are so harvesting Stars!
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 29, 2007 01:14 PM |
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Well I kinda like posting nostalgic things. Helps put things in perspective, see the evolution, what is missing in each and potentially help us see what could be improved. Of course I also like remembering things I used to do
Now if I also get rewarded so much for the better. I know I wanted to make this thread regardless.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 29, 2007 01:33 PM |
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New as it is, I think this thread should be archived in some way. It makes for some good historical reading, and pinpoints the evolution of the spell system.
If I had any control over the system as it is, I'd make it so that one would have to 'research' spells - that is, to learn a spell, a hero would have to buy them individually to learn them after building a Mage Guild. Upgrading a hero's knowledge of a spell to level 1, 2 and 3 would require a certain level of 'experience' from using the spell constantly in battle, the required spell-based secondary skills, and an appropriate cost in the Mage Guild. I think this would make each spell more than just another way to enhance your troops' power in battle, and would make Spell Shrines far more valuable. I'd add many more Adventure Map spells, as well.
Lastly, I'd bring back the old Might and Magic spell system - the schools of Fire, Air, Earth and Water (Elemental), Body, Mind and Spirit (Essence) and the most powerful pair, Light and Darkness (Ethereal). That's just my opinion, of course.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 29, 2007 01:58 PM |
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I've often thought how the schools would be better and it's definitely not easy. I liked the age of wonders style but only for the schools - I'll take mage guilds over research anytime! And I dislike the fact you had to research casting specialist to have more than 20 mana, it felt too little. Of course that was for balance reasons as each stack represents an individual unit but it's no fun if you don't cast to the point of overkill The schools were life, death, elementals and cosmos that was a bit of everything. There each magic represents a separate aspect of the universe.
On the other hand there is the D&D approach with defining magic according to their nature. Conjuration, evocation, necromancy etc. That however gives too many types and a game is better off having 4-6 so as not to mess with the mage guild or the available skills.
For the variety so that we could have spells from either usage I'd rather we had the elementals with life and death. Or a psyonic, spiritual(light/dark) and elementals(with all 4 combined). If you just check the H3 and H4 system there were many different spells within the same schools and that helped with diverse gameplay.
Also it was possible to use effectively more than 2 magic schools that I miss in H5. Now only the wizards can do that and it is a lot of fun.
One of the reasons it cannot work is the shortage of available spells both in quantity but also because the mage guild gives few and the skills you can get within a game.
In the first case I'd rather the mage guild have H3's available slots(5 in guild 1, 4 in 2 etc) with at least 3 spells of the school per level - not the ones you get in the guild, the available ones. More are not needed and with three it's still hard to guess what you will get and how you will play with the ones you got.
As for the skills I like best the H5 way but I miss the fact that you could choose more in H3. For that maybe it would be good to choose an ability whenever you advance a skill mastery. You would be able to take more skills that way and not miss on the might side if you take 2 magic skills.
Of course that is a matter of taste. Some people want to have the sacrifice and choose one way or the other but I prefer to have more creativity and diverse gameplay. What do you think?
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted July 29, 2007 04:17 PM |
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Quote:
You could hypnotize your enemy's units and sacrifice them to resurrect your troops. That was EVIL.
Thankfully expansion fixed it. And fixed a bug causing casting neverending sanctuary on hypnotized AI units. In this case battle never ends.
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted July 29, 2007 04:51 PM |
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What made HoMM3 Great in magic usage, was that you got tons of spells - and you could learnt to master 1 or more, to make them EVEN more powerful
Almost as in HoMM5 , except - There are not tons of spells , only few...
And more would be nice . But maybe HoMM3 had to many? (HoMM4 surely had) . This amount in maybe more suited and give you more time to learn each Magic Core.
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 29, 2007 05:39 PM |
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That is the point, to find the ideal amount of spells so that a number of them will not feel unnecessary but not too few either.
Anyway which system seemed more appealing yo you guys? So far I've only written my possibly biased opinion and don't know how people feel about it. For all I know you all love the H1 one
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Ceres
Supreme Hero
and sweetness
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posted July 30, 2007 07:40 AM |
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Nice work, Elvin! I never really thought you are interested in making articles.
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And when the stars fall, I
will lie awake. You're my
shooting star.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted July 30, 2007 07:46 AM |
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I like the HV system, but it needs more spells. one more per level per school, and one more school (weather magic) would do nicely.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted July 30, 2007 09:36 AM |
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Quote:
Anyway which system seemed more appealing yo you guys? So far I've only written my possibly biased opinion and don't know how people feel about it. For all I know you all love the H1 one
Hmm... A blend between HoMM3 and 5 ... Like maybe more Magic classes not only 4 batlle schools and 1 out of battle(adventure) - and a speciel magic(runes) . I would love like 6 schools of battle magic... Then this number of spells would do... And then ofcourse skills like Sorcery..
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.
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Ceres
Supreme Hero
and sweetness
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posted July 30, 2007 09:44 AM |
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Well, I'm new to HoMM. So I guess I'm goin to choose HoMMV since I haven't played the other versions. And also I'm used to it.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 30, 2007 12:05 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 12:16, 30 Jul 2007.
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Well it is among the best if not the best. The last three chapters of heroes have been good on their implementation of magic generally speaking.
Now what I like about it:
For one light, dark, summoning and destructive seem very plausible schools. They keep the old spells but I like the way they are categorized and how they oppose each other.
Very logical in that you must spend many levels if you wish to master more than one school - even if I like multiple schools And of course that although you may be expert in it you may not be adept in casting all of its spells. You may have mass haste yet not mass endurance.
What I'd like here though would be a failsafe for getting the spells you need, sometimes it's annoying to wait until you build the mage guild to pick the ability
Some spells have taken a more complex dimension.
The old hypnotize, now puppet master is more balanced than its H3 and H4 variants. It is not useless when the stack has too many hitpoints, it drastically reduces the initiative of the targeted unit so as not to be easily exploited, there are counters except cleansing(well not for inferno), leadership can help end its duration so might is not hopeless and finally a demonlord cannot use it as efficiently as a traditional dark caster, say necromancer.
Through the destructive spells the elemental spells return but with them come some interesting features. Lightning, fire and ice spells may be accompanied by their respective rpg effects that makes the school more than just blasting away. You also have to consider the overall effect. In this direction there is the cool concept of elemental vision where the warlock can sense the elements associated with each unit so casting a spell of the opposite element will deal additional damage. Now adding the concept of lucky spells something only used for physical attacks so far and empowered spells you get a satisfying and more complex gameplay.
Not to mention irresistible magic that pierces through immunities and resistance(and even affects your units  ).
No more dragogeddon 
Cleansing the new variant of dispel now does not cleanse all effects, just the harmful from yourself and the positive from the opponent. But also has a chance to fail against a check versus the level of the opponent and his mastery of the magic you are trying to dispel.
Resurrection and raise dead cannot be exploited by casting over and over again, each casting reduces the total hitpoints of your units so you must plan ahead.
Phantom forces is simply brilliant. Its starting atb value depends on the level of the caster so that it won't play right away at first but it also has incorporeal that makes physical attacks against it risky for fear of retaliation or having it act right afterwards. And of course you can only have one copy per unit so again it cannot be abused.
Armageddon not only hurts all with fire damage but also damages the center of the battlefield with irresistible meteor damage. A great twist. As for the blackened earth where it hits and how it slowly fades, just wow
And of course the fact that adventure spells can be learnt by all. Instant travel aka dimension door and town portal not only take time and levels to learn but cannot be use in the same way as H3 - a tool to achieve victory.
SO all in all yes, they have missed a few things but they have gone to great lengths to avoid imbalances and I appreciate that. Maybe the new spells will make the system work smoother.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 30, 2007 05:07 PM |
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I like HV magic system but sometimes i miss having all spells in my spell book. It was good that they did divide spells rather than having the old Wisdom skill.
Maby in next Heroes there are diffrent type of spells in one Magic School. Destructive for instance could be more like Chaos magic from H4. More variations between spells... But yeah Heroes V system has been best so far.
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 30, 2007 05:27 PM |
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Something else that I forgot but miss a bit is how the spells were arranged by level. Now they remain in the order you learn them 
And of course the spellbook turn page animation and artwork. It gave a magical feeling It actually felt like a spellbook, now we have too few spells per page as if in compensation for the lesser amount of spells.
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted July 30, 2007 06:16 PM |
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It looks like the serries started as Heroes Of Might and Magic, and ended up as Heroes of Magic. There are progressively more and more magic skills, and magic plays increasingly more important role. I'm not sure about Heroes5, but in Heroes1-4 it was deffinitely viable option to go 100% might and ignore magic.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted July 30, 2007 06:35 PM |
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Borsuk pretty much summed up what I was going to say.
Basically you can't get by without a mix of might and magic in heroes 5. I've tried going all might and the spell perks are just too important to miss out on. Even the orc faction won't change this I think.
Edit: I think I put this in the wrong thread...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 30, 2007 07:32 PM |
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In my earlier H5 days I had tried to go might with sylvan against a necromancer. Dark magic made it rather one sided and since then I consider light magic a must. But then again order magic or expert earth magic could have the same effect if you had no magic at all in previous heroes. It's just that it was too easy to acquire a mass spell and still be mostly might. How many people took barbarians with not even one might school?
As it is I believe the game requires you to achieve a balance between the two. Even all magic heroes cannot take on a might opponent with light magic at times. And there are always heroes like Zoltan and Marbas.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 30, 2007 07:57 PM |
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Quote:
In my earlier H5 days I had tried to go might with sylvan against a necromancer. Dark magic made it rather one sided and since then I consider light magic a must. But then again order magic or expert earth magic could have the same effect if you had no magic at all in previous heroes. It's just that it was too easy to acquire a mass spell and still be mostly might. How many people took barbarians with not even one might school?
I guess you meant magic school. anyways, Barbarians couldn't learn water magic, the best "might" magic there was, and battle mages were much less impressive melee characters, nowhere near the godly Crag Hack (although Gundula or however she was called was a poor man's crag hack ;p)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 30, 2007 08:12 PM |
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Pretty much but I recall that I could get at least earth or air. Tactics and mass haste, mmm But hey Crag's natural attack and special caused A LOT of damage hence why might was a very good option. Now defense is buffed and attack decreased at the same time.
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