|
| Thread: Grail creatures |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
|
Diomed
Tavern Dweller
|
posted July 30, 2007 04:18 PM |
|
|
Grail creatures
Salut to everyone reading this,
I haven't read most of the threads here, so please bear with me if the following idea has already come up before.
Actually, I can't take full credit on this idea because it kind of borrows from Disciples, the other turn-based strategy game series I like to play. In Disciples, you have several creatures like the capitol guardians, some boss enemies or high-level summons that are very powerful and special.
How about implementing the feature of one single, very powerful high level creature per town in Heroes VI? This thought crossed my mind when I looked at the names of the different grail structures. Elrath's Sentinel, for example, might offer the additional benefit of summoning an according creature called "Elrath's Sentinel" onto the battlefield. The creature would be large and at least compare to an upgraded level 8 (which doesn't exist yet, of course). Only one hero would be able to summon one grail creature once during battle.
Balancing issues would have to be addressed for sure, but this is just a basic idea. What do you think?
|
|
Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
|
|
posted July 30, 2007 04:31 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I haven't read most of the threads here, so please bear with me if the following idea has already come up before.
i has but if you mean you summon it with grail then no
Quote:
Actually, I can't take full credit on this idea because it kind of borrows from Disciples, the other turn-based strategy game series I like to play.
no worries, everybody gets their inpersation from somewhere
Quote:
How about implementing the feature of one single, very powerful high level creature per town in Heroes VI?
why H5, our modders are very good *looks at GL and Daystar*
Quote:
This thought crossed my mind when I looked at the names of the different grail structures. Elrath's Sentinel, for example, might offer the additional benefit of summoning an according creature called "Elrath's Sentinel" onto the battlefield.
i like the sound of this, perhaps its like a gate, and this gate opens to Elrath and he sucks in 90% of enemy creatures? but can only be used when carrying the grail
another idea, when you activate it, your hero losers there turn, they change their turn for the grail, after five turns if you have at least 1 creature left standing your monster comes and eats them up
Quote:
The creature would be large and at least compare to an upgraded level 8 (which doesn't exist yet, of course).
well it can just be a really tough level 7 (250 health, 30 attack etc.)
everthing else good
____________
Visit my Site!
|
|
Diomed
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted July 30, 2007 06:03 PM |
|
|
Ted, thanks for your encouraging reply.
I think a tough level-7 as a grail creature won't do. You see, you usually don't obtain the grail too early in the mission - so when you can finally build the grail structure in one of your towns, you as well as your enemies are likely to have quite a number of level-7-units already. So a single, tough level-7 would be anything but special by then. That's why the grail creature should be of a much higher level.
|
|
Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
|
|
posted July 30, 2007 09:14 PM |
|
|
true, but too high would make it too easy for the enemy to beat you with it, its got to have some weakness (fire/water/earth/magic as a whole/low attack)
____________
Visit my Site!
|
|
GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted July 30, 2007 09:47 PM |
|
|
That could be nice.
Like a very powerful creature that you can get only with the grail?
But wouldn't it be overpowered?
What about a creature that appears only in enemy's siege attacks, when you defend your town?
Something like the Guard Post of Fortress.
It can be a stack of neutral creatures, like a stack of Phoenixes.
Good idea!
____________
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted July 30, 2007 11:15 PM |
|
|
This is an innovative idea. Those who know me know that I'm often quite conservative with regard to new concepts in the game, and I do have some objections to this also.  My main problems would be this:
- The grail is already an immensely powerful object. The extra gold + creature growth will easily win you the game on a 1:1 game if you just hold out for a while after finding it. That makes the game a race against time to survive for the opponent which always adds pressure. Adding another feature to the grail will only emphasize this.
- I have never been font of über creatures like the level 8-10 creatures of Heroes 3 AB. The Azure Dragon + co. was a fun idea, but in terms of gameplay, it does not really add anything positive. The problems with these units are that in normal game, you will only acquire a few of them. Über creatures therefore have to be quite powerful to stand any use. But this also means that the acquisition of even a single one in early game can skewe the game ballance tremendously. Consider what it does to creeping.
I think the Summon Phoenix spell is a very good example of the same phenomena in Heroes 5. Creeping through Summoned Phoenix is a commonly used tactic, even a moderately skilled Wizard can summon a Phoenix which is strong enough to take out any low to mid-level creep. In late game, the spell looses importance, because there are suddenly a lot of counters to it (banish, vorpal sword, cold death, harm touch).
I'm afraid the same will happen here - either the creature will be overpowered or useless, findin gthe proper ballance to make it useful but not broken will be tricky to say the least.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted July 30, 2007 11:33 PM |
|
|
Hm... How about this - you have a choice of 2 grail buildings - you can build only one. One gives you economic bonuses (like now) and the other one gives your heroes the spell that allows you to summon the Pwnagecreep. Like phoenix only cooler, tougher and immune to banish, harm touch and similar. Different for all factions of course. My proposition would be Avatars: each faction of its element.
Haven: Avatar of light
Necro: death
Inferno: chaos
Sylvan: nature
Dungeon: darkness
Academy: magic
Fortress: fire
Orcs: might
Something like that. Each with its own abilities and stuff. Costs a symbollic, say, 25 mana to cast. Lasts until the end of battle or, well, untill killed.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
|
|
posted July 31, 2007 03:31 AM |
|
|
How about an alternative:
The grail gives an adventure bonus (week of the imp, LOS, etc) and a combat bonus based not on the deffender, but the attacker. For instance, a Sylvan Grail would shoot rains of arrows upon Wizards, so they could not deflect it w/ magic mirror, but shoot magic at Humans, since they have no immunities.
____________
How exactly is luck a skill?
|
|
Lord_of_Chaos
Known Hero
Chaotic Entity
|
|
posted July 31, 2007 04:19 AM |
|
|
I like this idea. It would add alot to the game, but as said before, would be very hard to balance.
The ideas of elemental avatars is really cool.
Haven: elrath's sentinel, a giant statue holding a sword, empowered by the light of elrath
Inferno: some sort of chaotic firey beast like this
Necro: grim reaper, the angel of death himself
Academy: a creature made of raw magical energy, highly unstable, whenever hit it spews out magic that damages surrounding units, when defeated explodes
Sylvan: golem-like creature, made of boulders, trees, roots, vines etc.
Dungeon: a shadowy thing, like this
 , but less purple, more black
Fortress: not sure
Bastion: some big muscley thing (they already have cyclops, so it might be too similar)
____________
My artwork Here
Wii friend code: 5851-5127-4914-1820
Brawl friend code: 0173-0991-0556
|
|
Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
|
|
posted July 31, 2007 06:45 AM |
|
|
Haven: Sentinel Angel: The angel statue comes alive. Seriously, I want to see that thing in combat.
Inferno: Drakk: A demonic dragon-thing, with a short neck and a serrated barb on its tail.
____________
How exactly is luck a skill?
|
|
Diomed
Tavern Dweller
|
posted July 31, 2007 11:55 AM |
|
|
Quote:
This is an innovative idea. Those who know me know that I'm often quite conservative with regard to new concepts in the game, and I do have some objections to this also. My main problems would be this:
- The grail is already an immensely powerful object. The extra gold + creature growth will easily win you the game on a 1:1 game if you just hold out for a while after finding it. That makes the game a race against time to survive for the opponent which always adds pressure. Adding another feature to the grail will only emphasize this.
When a forum authority credits me with an "innovative idea", I certainly don't complain.
Your objections stand true, of course - after all, it is a matter of balancing. Maybe if the grail was toned down concerning extra gold and creature growth benefits, there would be "room" for a grail creature. Of course the "grail creature" doesn't have to be a creature at all - "Elrath's Sentinel" or the "Mother of Darkness" might as well be turned into special abilities for the main hero. Again there is the issue of proper balance which seems to be the main problem in any case.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted July 31, 2007 12:41 PM |
|
|
I still think it would be best with simply calling them avatars of different elements.
Haven would have the giant golden statue, that's ok. Preferrably with a two-handed sword. A statue imbued with the power of light, that's ok.
Necropolis shouldn't have the grim reaper since, well, it's their level 6 already. I'd go with a huge, ancient, undead scorpion or something.
Academy - LoC's idea is ok. There's just the matter of looks; I'd make it simply as a tall ethereal bluish human-like figure, with an ethereal cape, but without a specific shape or face, floating above ground a bit. Something like that.
Dungeon would have a Faceless. No second thoughts about that. A tall figure, completely black, perhaps with a harlequin mask, or simply with a face without a nose or mouth, just eyes from which dark steam pours out.
Sylvan could have something like a huge nature golem, LoC's idea is ok.
Inferno would have some chaos spawn-like creature with... like... tentacles and stuff
Fortress would have some tundra spirit in the shape of a huge polar bear perhaps... Or an ice giant, but we already have a lot of huge humanoid creatures.
Finally, no biggy about bastion, it would simply be a behemoth.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
|
|
posted July 31, 2007 04:06 PM |
|
|
too many posts to read
i think for Dungeon Baklava's right for Faceless, Sylvan would have a giant tree, hmm, well, it would have some bee's in the shape of something really big
matrix's machnie cty face thing, it would be likes, only not machines, little butterflys or something
Infernos "big dragon" would be like Fortress' dragon, and besides who wants more dragons?;P
____________
Visit my Site!
|
|
Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
|
|
posted July 31, 2007 09:53 PM |
|
|
what about, instead of a powerful (level 9) creature, how about armies of level 1s, based on the town level.
Eg, a bunch of farmers.
____________
How exactly is luck a skill?
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted July 31, 2007 10:34 PM |
|
Edited by baklava at 22:37, 31 Jul 2007.
|
Quote:
Eg, a bunch of farmers.
Yeah I wonder what's more useful...
EDIT:
OMG Coolest idea ever! Now that I think about it.
You give everything you've got and finally find the grail, and build it, and it says "The grail structure gives you an additional 4 peasants per week. Lol own3d." 
That would be almost as awesome as this:
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
|
|
posted July 31, 2007 10:36 PM |
|
|
|
Think about it in an economic sense - I don't see Elrath's Sentinel planting crops and tilling the fields.
|
|
Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
|
|
posted August 01, 2007 03:24 AM |
|
|
I don't mean the sentinel would do it, I mean that the presence of the sentinel would motivate people to defend their homes. And where there would be, like 2 or 3 ubermonsters, whereas there would be zounds of farmers.
____________
How exactly is luck a skill?
|
|
Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
|
|
posted August 01, 2007 12:36 PM |
|
|
|
That was just a joke for Baklava when he asked which one would be more useful.
|
|
Tenaka
Famous Hero
Makes sense
|
|
posted August 01, 2007 01:28 PM |
|
|
The concept is good, but I don't think it'll fit well in Heroes 5.
They'd have to change to whole game mechanics to make it balanced. If you make the Grail creature too strong, the game just becomes a hunt for the grail, or grail maps become banned. (Think Necro in Heroes 3)
Make it too weak, and it has little use late game. Maybe just make it a really tough Tier 7 creature, but with immunities against things like vorpal sword, cold death, etc.?
And giving people a choice between economics and creatures isn't a good idea...The only moment I'd prefer the current bonuses over a creature is when the creature seriously pwns...
|
|
Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
|
|
posted August 01, 2007 03:46 PM |
|
|
suggestions of new game mechanics are all generally for HVI.
____________
How exactly is luck a skill?
|
| |
|
|
