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| Thread: Factions' Creeping Potential |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 03, 2007 10:47 PM |
bonus applied. |
Edited by Elvin at 18:13, 05 Sep 2007.
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Factions' Creeping Potential
This is something that began to concern me soon after I started playing multiplayer and with good reason as the one who creeps more effectively has higher chances of success. This is especially true for rushing situations but in any case he who has gotten the most out of creeping by week 4 has an edge. Of course I am still learning so if I have missed something please correct me or speak your thoughts.
Let's see what neutrals each faction can manage by week 1-2 then 
That's considering difficulty on hard - lots on heroic is pretty different than lots on hard 
Also that is not taking into account powerful heroes as Deleb, Ossir, Ingvar etc.
ACADEMY
TIER 1:
Horde of sprites: Just gargoyles and magic - almost no losses.
Horde of assassins: Same, just defend and cast away.
No need to mention the rest
TIER 2:
Horde of archers: Pretty manageable with motw + eldritch arrow, master gremlins and maybe 5 split mages for fist of wrath to deal 36 damage each.
>> marksmen: I'll pass unless I need what they guard. I'd consider attacking lots.
Horde of stone gargoyles: Manageable but better to take a few lvl ups first. Master gremlins, a few gargoyles to surround them and one on the other edge to draw the attention of one stack.
The lone gargoyle moves forward just out of range of the enemies and it is possible that more than 1 stacks will follow it back to the corner as it retreats back.
>> obsidian gargoyles: Maybe with expert summoning and fist of wrath but better to keep a distance.
Horde of blood furies: I think I'll pass, only lots.
Horde of horned overseers/zombies: Why did I even mention them? 
Horde of blade dancers: Can be taken down much like the gargoyles.
>> war dancers: Nuh-uh! Better not to try until week 2 if that.
Horde of skirmishers: Just some spellpower and you'll have little losses. If you charge a few gargoyles to block them you'll save some gremlins.
TIER 3:
Horde of squires/minotaur guards: Manageable with master gremlins, 4-5 gargoyles and eldrirch arrow. A cart will help a lot, otherwise wait for full range and don't forget the lone gargoyle at the other edge for distraction. Oh and do take some lvls first.
Horde of steel golems: Risky for week 1. Have ammo cart or fist of wrath and summoning.
Horde of cerberi: Hmm week 2.
Horde of spectres: Academy can boast taking down those annoying things easily  Some leveling required.
Horde of hunters/master hunters: Oh no you don't unless you get mass confusion early.
Horde of (black)bear riders: Manageable but with expert firetrap.
Stay in the corner so that when you hover the cursor over your units there will be less space for the mines to appear. This way they are more tightly packed and easier to hit large enemies.
TIER 4:
Lots of mages/archmages: Only with good spellpower and/or spells. Strangely archmages will shoot your gargoyles instead of cast fireball so if you have motw and icebolt or a good eldritch arrow you can get them.
Lots of grim raiders: Only with firetrap, otherwise wait.
Lots of imperial griffins: Same except do not have gremlins surrounded by gargoyles to avoid battledive. Using mages is risky.
Lots of succubi: With good spellpower.
>> succubi mistresses: Steer clear of them until you have a proper tank.
Lots of vampires: Sure.
>> vampire lords: Better not to risk it.
Lots of druids: Just gargoyles and spells. That lightning immunity sure comes in handy.
>> druid elders: Thanks but no thanks, they have stone spikes.
Lots of berserkers/berserkers: Get some spellpower and get them.
TIER 5:
Pack of djinns/djinn sultans: Manageable though the sultans may require some leveling. Firetrap makes it easy but it's not a must.
Pack of hydras: Only with good spellpower/mana.
>> deep hydras: A certain no-no.
Pack of hell chargers: With firetrap.
>> nightmares: Nuh-uh.
Rest I wouldn't touch.
TIER 6:
Pack of treants/wights: Only with good spellpower and firetrap and never first week.
>> ancient treants: I'll pass.
Pack of pit fiends: With obsidian gargoyles they waste their turns casting vulnerability so they are yours.
>> pit lords: No.
From then on it's pretty much a suicide unless you use MMR and are lucky. A week 2 implosion/phoenix/summon elementals can solve many problems.
TIER 7:
Pack of angels/colossi/devils/bone dragons: Only with good level and firetrap.
>> respective upgrades: Only spectrals if you feel too confident.
NECROPOLIS
TIER 1:
Horde of sprites: Just skeleton archers and a few zombies much like academy tactics.
Horde of assassins: Same.
TIER 2:
Horde of archers: Easy, just have a big stack of archers, 5 single ones and motn 
Motn regenerates 1 mana every 50 damage or per attack even if it is 1 damage so 5 skeleton archers will give you 5 mana per turn. The AI never targets the smaller stacks.
>> marksmen: Harvest some skellies first and hopefully you'll have a single vampire or ghost to block them for a while.
Horde of stone gargoyles: Manageable.
>> obsidians: If skellies are enough.
Horde of blood furies: I'd rather not, only if lots.
Horde of horned overseers/zombies: D'uh.
Horde of blade dancers: As academy.
>> war dancers: Trickier, better to wait.
Horde of skirmishers: See marksmen.
TIER 3:
Horde of squires/minotaur guards/steel golems: Easy as pie with some skellies.
Horde of cerberi: Let's leave them alone till week 2 hmm?
Horde of spectres: So damn annoying, better to wait. Even your fist of wrath can miss.
Horde of hunters/master hunters: Avoid till you get confusion or vamp lords on week 2. Those, skellies and motn can get you through. If you have ghosts only or regular vamps master hunters may prove too much and raise dead keeps lowering your health..
Horde of blackbear riders: Yep but better to have firetrap.
TIER 4:
Lots of mages/archmages/druids/druid elders: I'll chicken out in this one. Maybe druids on week 2.
Lots of grim raiders/imperial griffins: As academy.
Lots of succubi: With vamp lords or many skellies.
>> mistresses: Risky for week 2.
Lots of berserkers: No big deal just gather skellies - too bad they are unaffected by mass slow.
TIER 5:
Pack of djinns/djinn sultans: Manageable.
Pack of hydras: Manageable.
>> deep hydras: Maybe week 2.
Pack of hell chargers: With firetrap, maybe (mass)decay.
>> nightmares: I'd rather not.
Pack of priests/rune priests: Manageable with the 5 skellie+motn trick as mentioned earlier.
>> inquisitors/rune patriarchs: Maybe inquisitors, no patriarchs for week 2. Decay helps.
Pack of liches/unicorns: Maybe week 2.
>> archliches/silver unicorns: Wait.
TIER 6:
Pack of wights/wraiths/cavaliers/treants/rakshasas: Week 2 with good firetrap/decay and many skellies.
>> paladins/ancient treants/rakshasa rajas: Nope. Maybe the rajas.
Pack of shadow witches: Maybe week 2, hopefully good spells.
>> matriarchs: High potential for suicide
Rest I am unwilling to push my luck.
TIER 7:
Pack of angels/colossi/devils/bone dragons: Only with good level and firetrap/mass slow. If you have a few ghosts it can make your job easier With incorporeal they can delay large units a lot and if you raise them with may keep missing attacks.
>> respective upgrades: Only spectrals if you feel too confident.
SYLVAN
TIER 1:
Horde of sprites: Can be really bad, avoid if possible.
Horde of assassins: Same.
TIER 2:
Horde of archers: Manageable if you use hunters and charge your pixies forth, one good morale and it's an instant block. If you also charge the dancers they are sure to attack them instead of hunters. If you have sprites use them as a few single stacks, that 12 damage from wasp swarm is lovely. If there are more than 1 sprites in the stack the damage is less  Leave for week 2.
>> marksmen: I'll pass unless I really need what they guard. I'd consider lots.
Horde of stone gargoyles: Manageable but risky. Need good luck, deadeye shot and maybe archery. Week 2, hunters and a few dancers as they may survive an attack that pixies won't(I use 1-stacks as usual ).
>> obsidian gargoyles: Umm no.
Horde of blood furies: I'll pass, only lots.
Horde of horned overseers/zombies: Hehehe 
Horde of blade dancers: Can be taken down.
>> war dancers: Nuh-uh! Better not to try until week 2 if that.
Horde of skirmishers: Maybe but with good preparation.
TIER 3:
Horde of squires/minotaur guards/steel golems: Better to leave for week 2 unless with Ossir I've killed 73 squires with minimal losses(some sprites and dancers) on week 2 without Ossir.
Horde of cerberi: Let's leave them alone till week 2 hmm?
Horde of spectres: No way. Ghosts are an easier target and thankfully hunters have double shot but an eldritch arrow wouldn't hurt.
Horde of hunters/master hunters: Avoid at all costs.
Horde of blackbear riders: Yep but with good level.
TIER 4:
Lots of mages/archmages/druids/druid elders: Heck no.
Lots of grim raiders: Possible with hunters but level up first.
Lots of imperial griffins: Leave for later, regular griffins are more reasonable to attack.
Lots of succubi(mistresses): No.
Lots of berserkers: You should be fine.
TIER 5:
Pack of djinns/djinn sultans: Manageable.
Pack of hydras: Manageable week 2.
>> deep hydras: I wouldn't think so.
Pack of hell chargers/nightmares: I'd rather not.
Pack of priests/rune priests: Negative.
Pack of liches/unicorns: Non.
TIER 6:
i]Pack of wights/wraiths/cavaliers/treants/rakshasas: Week 2 if you are good enough.
>> paladins/ancient treants/rakshasa rajas: Nope. Maybe the rajas.
TIER 7:
Pack of angels/colossi/devils/bone dragons: Only with good level, luck and hunters.
>> respective upgrades: Only spectrals if you feel too confident.
I believe so far we can see a difference between the first two and sylvan. Either that or I'm not that good at it
DUNGEON
TIER 1:
Horde of sprites: Scouts and eldritch arrow but there will be losses.
Horde of assassins: Even worse, avoid unless lots.
TIER 2:
Horde of archers: Split scouts/assassins and spells or otherwise furies on the 3rd tile and tactics. A few hudras help.
Archers usually split into 2 stacks if you have the combined army of 2 heroes and can be reached if you stand on the 3rd tile from each corner and have 9 speed. Furies have 8 hence tactics.
If they appear on 3 stacks there's ann additional stack in the middle.
If you have a bigger army they may appear in 1 stack only, in the middle.
>> marksmen: Avoid.
Horde of stone gargoyles: Not manageable 
Horde of blood furies: I can leave without it.
Horde of horned overseers/zombies: D'uh!
Horde of blade dancers: Possible with furies, scouts and eldritch arrow. Hopefully hydras.
>> war dancers: Trickier, better to wait.
Horde of skirmishers: I'd wait for hydras.
TIER 3:
Horde of squires/minotaur guards/steel golems: Furies And a little leveling just in case, luck helps.
Horde of cerberi: Let's leave them alone till week 2 hmm?
Horde of spectres: Ghosts are an easier target but if your spellpower and mana is good enough..
Horde of hunters/master hunters: Avoid at all costs.
Horde of blackbear riders: Yep but with good level. Furies always on tile 3 and a few single scouts near each corner as a safe spot for them to run. Hopefully positive luck too.
If you are on tile 3 and face large units you always hit tactics or no
TIER 4:
Lots of mages/archmages/druids/druid elders: Only with fireball/circle of winter, good spellpower and sorcery. 5-6 split scouts will make them appear in 4 stacks so each fireball can kill 2 outright(hopefully).
Lots of grim raiders: Possible, needs some leveling.
Lots of imperial griffins: If spells are good enough, a fury hit&run with scout cover as with blackbears.
Lots of succubi(mistresses): Too risky, only week 2 and you'll lose some hydras or try the single scouts/fireball trick hoping there won't be any upgraded in there. I'd leave the mistresses alone.
Lots of berserkers: You should be fine.
TIER 5:
Pack of djinns/djinn sultans: Manageable, week 2 for sultans and hope they get no decay.
Pack of hydras: Manageable week 2.
>> deep hydras: I wouldn't think so.
Pack of hell chargers/nightmares: I'd rather not.
Pack of priests/rune priests: Negative.
Pack of liches/unicorns: Liches maybe if the spells are good but unicorns..
TIER 6:
Pack of wights/wraiths/cavaliers/treants/rakshasas: Week 2 with good level and spells, have a few witches along for slowing and imbuing furies with righteous magic. Not always applicable.
>> paladins/ancient treants/rakshasa rajas: Nope. Maybe the rajas.
Pack of shadow witches: Unwilling to attack
TIER 7:
Pack of colossi/bone dragons: Only with good level, try week 3 for the rest.
FORTRESS
TIER 1:
Horde of sprites: Just shieldguards, they can take the heat.
Horde of assassins: Same.
TIER 2:
Horde of archers/marksmen: Use a main shieldguard stack and 1-2 single bears. The bears will block the marksmen and by then the shieldguards will be there. Against archers you don't even need the bears.
Horde of stone/obsidian gargoyles: Shieldguards. You may want to consider taking battle frenzy from attack.
Horde of blood furies: Not just yet, wait for blackbear riders week 2 and there'll be losses.
Horde of horned overseers/zombies: Even shieldguards will have minimal losses, just let them hit you after moving 4 tiles instead of attacking first.
Horde of blade/war dancers: Shieldguards and blackbears if you have them.
Horde of skirmishers: Shieldguards, the shots are few anyway.
TIER 3:
Horde of squires/minotaur guards/steel golems: Blackbear riders.
Horde of cerberi: You must have sensed a pattern by now NEVER with shieldguards alone, even lots can hurt.
Horde of spectres: Ugh that's gonna hurt - don't try it. Even a horde of ghosts is good, make sure you have a decent destructive spell. Did I mention that they are not affected by shield wall? Have a few single shieldguards, 1 to be attacked by the ghosts' first attack and the others to steal retaliations - remember that you cannot miss more than 3 times.
Horde of hunters/master hunters: Use the tactics with marksmen or just build runic guild 1, maybe you'll get rune of charge. Tactics and bears works too, they can reach across.
Horde of blackbear riders: One of the same really. But lead them to a corner so that only one stack can hit you at a time but also because it ensures that paw strike will land you next to them and you'll still retaliate. Buy Ingvar for troops if you find him
TIER 4:
Lots of mages/archmages/druids/druid elders: Only with blackbear riders and rune of charge/tactics and better left for later.
Lots of grim raiders: Possible with the little tough guys as with the bears.
Lots of imperial griffins: First 3 tiers should be enough by week 2 but there can easily be bear losses. A mass haste will help, what you don't build mage guild 1 in the first week?
Lots of succubi(mistresses): I'll leave it to your imagination.
Lots of berserkers: D'uh.
TIER 5:
Pack of djinns/djinn sultans: A shame they are not affected by shield wall. An eldritch arrow should help kill some, consider buying an ammo cart because the AI loves attacking it.
Pack of hydras: Don't expect the spearwielders' crippling strike to work, use shieldguards and bears. Shieldguards alone can't take them.
>> deep hydras: NO.
Pack of liches: Blahblah. Since liches are large the dwarves can attack them in one action with rune of charge. It is possible to take them week 1 with shieldguards some spearwielders and no runes but requires battle frenzy. Upgrades are scary with that decay.
Pack of hell chargers/nightmares/unicorns/silver unicorns: Strangely the little guys can take them on. They will be split so you will be guarded from the rest of the stacks till you finish the one that attacked you each time.
Pack of priests/inquisitors/rune priests: Same. Keep an eye for Elrling, his priest can cast deflect arrows though it lasts little. Attack the one in the corner so that only the middle one will attack you with full damage.
TIER 6:
Pack of wights: You may get them if you are lucky but fear the wraiths.
Pack of cavaliers: You can actually win with shieldguards though paladins are not a good idea. They can heal each other and are tougher/more damaging.
Pack of shadow witches/thanes/treants/pit fiends/rakshasas: Off limits. Maybe rakshasas and witches week 2 but there will be losses.
TIER 6:
Pack of colossi: I guess that's the only one you can face, better to have soldier's luck for the bears. The rest are flying so they can bypass your shieldwall or too tough to take out.
INFERNO
A few words first. In the following section I assume that you use warmachines, lvl up gating skill fast and use the following placement of units, backed up by mark of the damned, maybe excruciating strike and hellfire. Only demons and imps are used. Before you leave town buy a ballista.
The big stack of imps and demons stay in the corner guarded by 4 demons and a single demon in the other side.
Gate with all units in the back line and your enemies will run back to attack them while the ballista shoots. Hopefully a few of the single demons will gate successfully(or have them in 2 for almost certain gate).
Then you mark enemies to wear them down quickly and those that will finally come to you, you sacrifice the single demons to steal the retaliation and attack with your good stacks. Hellfire should be great here.
If the units are slow you kill all stacks but one so that you can run around and hitting it with your hero. Some stacks will prefer to attack the ballista instead of you actual army so that helps.
Should you get slow learn dark to get the mass version.
Finally against large, slow units gate if front of you to avoid them reaching you - a gate wall
TIER 1:
Horde of sprites: Avoid, or use only demons and suffer losses.
Horde of assassins: Same.
TIER 2:
Horde of archers/marksmen: Just demons, avoid without warmachines.
Horde of stone/obsidian gargoyles: The demons that protect the main stacks better have 2 or more in each stack. Gate near ballista.
Horde of blood furies: Only if you also have cerberi and adequate ballista.
Horde of horned overseers/zombies: Piece of cake.
Horde of blade/war dancers: Should be fine. War dancers better to avoid, only with cerberi.
Horde of skirmishers: Just demons.
TIER 3:
Horde of squires/minotaur guards/steel golems: Better have adv/exp warmachines first. Cerberi can perform just as well if you have good gating.
Horde of cerberi: Ballista and/or cerberi. By the time they play twice the imp gates will have arrived and they won't hurt your real troops. At worst one of the 3 cerberi stacks will attack a few of your demons.
Horde of spectres: Do you feel lucky punk?
Horde of hunters/master hunters: Possible with just a few gated demons and eldritch arrow. Focus on 1 stack with the arrow(should die in 2 rounds) and each ballista hit kills a stack. Just make sure one stack has 4-5 demons to survive more than 1 attack.
Horde of blackbear riders: Ballista, swarm the place with gates.
TIER 4:
Lots of mages/archmages/druids/druid elders: Avoid. Maybe mages but you'll lose demons.
Lots of grim raiders: Imps, demons, ballista.
Lots of imperial griffins: I strongly advice against it! Maybe if you have mass slow and hellifire but it will cost you.
Lots of succubi(mistresses): Demons.
Lots of berserkers: D'uh.
TIER 5:
Pack of djinns/djinn sultans: Oh you know.
Pack of hydras/deep hydras: Pretty possible even for the deep ones. Exp warmachines and block with gates, use every available obstacle.
Pack of liches/archliches: Liches maybe but definitely not their upgrades.
Pack of hell chargers/nightmares/unicorns/silver unicorns: Imps+demons.
Pack of priests/inquisitors/rune priests: Demons and a few 2 demon stacks, gate all the way and use marks carefully.
TIER 6:
Pack of wights/cavaliers/treants/rakshasas/rakshasa rajas: Guess what! No ancient treants though and wraiths may be risky.
Pack of wraiths: A paradox  If you have 2 demons in each of the surrounding stacks they will use harm touch and move on to the next one, leaving alone the single ones. They have this urge to harmfully touch all the pairs That's kind of an abuse 
Pack of paladins: They are a slightly different case. Each time you hurt one the nearest will heal it. At first you'll have one attack your single demons and the rest will be blocked/attack the ballista. Reduce them to 2 stacks and then mark the healed one. It will heal the other, be attacked by the mark and then the other will heal it and it will become an infinite loop. In the meantime direct attacks and ballista will slowly kill them.
Kinda funny
Pack of pit fiends: A big stack of demons, 5 smaller stacks that are places so as to avoid fireballs if possible(yes better to have tactics for that) and gate all over. 3 fireballs later the mana is gone and they are at your mercy. If there are pit fiends in there you can still win but it's tricky.
Never pitlords alone.
Pack of shadow witches: Funny how they attack demons instead of imps. Block them with gates, mark and the ballista will take care of the rest.
TIER 7:
Pack of bone/spectral dragons: They seem to be the only tier 7 that is relatively safe to attack. Even the colossi that have low speed prefer to attack your units because they are closer than the ballista Devils and angels I might attempt with excruciating strike and mass slow.
HAVEN
Bear in mind that haven is my worse faction so far so I may be missing things. I do not mention the guardian angel strategy because I believe it's unreliable and certainly not guaranteed to get early. I do not use warmachines either because haven will have NO use for them later and there are so many better skills. Ballista bonuses inadequate and there are light protections against dark so even first aid is unnecessary.
What I do use is leadership, retribution, archery and divine guidance with marksmen and some peasant fodder. I'd love to use squires but wood and ore are needed for later. Upgrading griffins is kinda expensive too.
TIER 1:
Horde of sprites: Hate them.
Horde of assassins: Same.
TIER 2:
Horde of archers/marksmen: Marksmen I'll probably leave or carry a few griffins to block if they get morale. Divine guidance should help to get the first shot.
Horde of stone/obsidian gargoyles: Marksmen, a few peasants and a big stack of them near the marksmen. Once the gargoyles kill the single peasants they'll hit the big stack instead of marksmen - at least one of them. Which is a perfect target for retaliation strike.
Horde of blood furies: Not just yet
Horde of horned overseers/zombies: Easy.
Horde of blade/war dancers: Not wardancers.
Horde of skirmishers: As with marksmen I prefer to avoid although they don't do too much damage.
TIER 3:
Horde of squires/minotaur guards/steel golems: Manageable but better for week 2.
Horde of cerberi: Week 2 if that.
Horde of spectres: If you feel lucky. Divine guidance may get you through but don't bet on it.
Horde of hunters/master hunters: See master hunters. You'll lose a few griffins and marksmen.
Horde of blackbear riders: Hope you have divine strength and remember to have a big stack of peasants just in case. You may have to wait with your hero so you use divine guidance after the marksmen play to get a second shot.
TIER 4:
Lots of mages/archmages/druids/druid elders: No.
Lots of grim raiders: Possible, leave a peasant ahead for them to charge and get a good shot.
Lots of imperial griffins: Uhh no.
Lots of succubi(mistresses): No.
Lots of berserkers: Easy.
TIER 5:
Pack of djinns/djinn sultans: Better to have cleansing, a confusion spell may be too much for you to handle. And they will cast it.
Pack of (deep)hydras: Thankfully they are manageable on week 1. Deep hydras on week 2.
Pack of liches: Tactics and a few griffins to block, marksmen shoot. No archliches, bad.
Pack of hell chargers/nightmares/unicorns/silver unicorns: Unicorns are actually manageable on week 1. The rest week 2 when you have more marksmen though nightmares are always a force and may get a fast attack at your marksmen
Pack of priests/inquisitors/rune priests: I'd rather not.
TIER 6:
Pack of wights: Week 2.
Pack of cavaliers: Week 2.
Pack of shadow witches/thanes/treants/pit fiends/rakshasas: Away from them. Maybe only a pack of rakshasas.
TIER 7:
Pack of colossi/bone dragons: They seem the safest to try but are still formidable. Angels and devils are manageable but risky. If there are archangels shoot them first
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Special thanks to felunio, doomforge, destro, buxyrs, sq79 and others that have given me the occasional insight 
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ismail222
Known Hero
The Cataclysm
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posted September 03, 2007 11:00 PM |
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Great thread well done
i can't wait to see the dungeon's helps,keep up the good work
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Ppl griveing,Ppl
Deceving,Ppl lying,Ppl dying
One Word : Life
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Great-E
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 04, 2007 12:07 AM |
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Edited by Great-E at 00:11, 04 Sep 2007.
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Great info.
Necro's have a pretty good chance to creep anything with enough mana, motn and a zombie meatshield. Even stacks of Master Hunters can be done, just keep spamming motn+raise dead till you get the upper hand, a stack of ghosts can help tremendously
Atleast with Vladimir whom i've been playing with now for some time
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 04, 2007 12:13 AM |
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Nice thread. Looking forward to the rest. I do, however, feel you would help the untrained player a lot by giving a brief description of basic creeping tricks for each faction - for instance, for a newbie, the "5 skeleton + MOTN" trick will not be elementary at all without an explanation ... Other things that could need a mention is 5 x Sprites + Wasp Swarm, MOTW + EA/FOR, how to manipulate Firetraps position, what the "Fury in tile 3" trick is, etc.
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What will happen now?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 04, 2007 12:29 AM |
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Thanks guys! You are right Alc I'll make a small edit to add a few tidbits.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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ismail222
Known Hero
The Cataclysm
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posted September 04, 2007 03:04 AM |
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I think if u can get deep hydras with dungeon in week 2,u can defeat all low lvl shooters and some mediocre lvls also,and the units that are V.easy to defeat with no losses are rajas and vampires,u just leave them at 1 unit and make them attack ur deep hydras and u can keep regenerating and resseurecting them easily,and that trick works great VS master hunters too,but warding arrows can be a real pain but with units that can kill some deep hydras and doesn't have the no retaliation skill,then they may make u lose some hydras,unless u was lucky enuf to get TA but u'll ned LOTS of mana,and remember to always leave the archers/no retal attackers at just 1 unit ^.^.
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Ppl griveing,Ppl
Deceving,Ppl lying,Ppl dying
One Word : Life
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 04, 2007 09:49 AM |
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That's unreasonable, there are almost never money for capitol and deep hydras.
Anyways the next update will probably be in the evening, there have been some changes in my exams schedule and I'm not sure what will happen - gotta check it out. Also I need to test some specific combinations with the map editor as I don't play all factions equally and I don't want to start theory-crafting. I've already posted the factions I'm more familiar with
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 04, 2007 11:16 AM |
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Dam that looks like a lot of work oO. But thank you for it help is allways apreciated. I'm looking forward to the inferno part as I find them a bit tricky myself but they are veeeery effective in my eyes.
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Pack of djinns/djinn sultans: A shame they are not affected by shield wall.
How come that they are not affected by Shieldwall ?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 04, 2007 11:40 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:50, 04 Sep 2007.
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Because they are flying units, only walkers get damage reduction.
Edited the ghost description to add a tip and stress that they are not affected either.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted September 04, 2007 12:55 PM |
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Hmmm, nice thread.
I wonder how you're going to solve Inferno though without spamming Deleb
I have a feeling Inferno is meant to use Horned Demons / Overseers as cannonfodder in creeping. They are useless in end-game battles for the most part (rather have 2 stacks of mistressi, arch devils, or pitlords), so they can be wasted in early game creeping. + Gating of course.
Just my 2 cents
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted September 04, 2007 03:12 PM |
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Inferno has the hardest time creeping without abusing AI... but the truth is that if you really enjoy that kind of broken game... you can take on nearly any large creature stack, or walker with little losses, by with upgraded imps alone...
IMO Strategies that involve AI abuse (luring with 1 gargoyle, or making 1 unit stacks, abusing spell casters, whatever...) shouldn't even be mentioned. Because abusing AI is no better (and less fun) than playing with a powerfull character as Deleb.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 04, 2007 03:21 PM |
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Well, I have taken on 47 vindicators on day 4 and 10 hydras +10 deep hydras on day 8 so it's not that bad
How? Warmachines with ballista, mark of the damned and tactical gating. I bought only imps, ballista and demons from town, upgraded nothing. Big stack of imps and demons in the corner guarded by 4 demons and a single demon in the other side.
Gate with all units in the back line and your enemies will run back to attack them while the ballista shoots. Hopefully a few of the single demons will gate successfully(or have them in 2 for better chance).
Then you mark enemies to wear them down quickly and those that will finally come to you, you sacrifice 1 demon to steal the retaliation and attack with your good stacks.
If the units are slow you kill all stacks but one so that you can run around and hitting it with your hero. One or two stacks will prefer to attack the ballista insead of you actual army so that helps. Hellfire is also good to have
It IS hell to do all this but only for the first few battles. After that you get ballista perk and adv/exp warmachines and battles become much faster. I never used any other units while creeping with this method and it is also good because you can deal with archers.
The other method I used was cerberi but sadly it eats up a lot of the resources and is not as effective. Only downside the ballista is that you may not be offered warmachines skill right away.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 04, 2007 03:26 PM |
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Quote:
IMO Strategies that involve AI abuse (luring with 1 gargoyle, or making 1 unit stacks, abusing spell casters, whatever...) shouldn't even be mentioned. Because abusing AI is no better (and less fun) than playing with a powerfull character as Deleb.
Tell you what, no I do not enjoy this game. But if you are to play competitive you must go down this path.
As for saying it is no better here are my two cents: You must be kidding me. It is hell to do that, not all can do that effectively while the other is a no brainer. The difference is that you still need skill, good judgement and creativity to create such situations.
As nevermindspy defeated lots of spectral dragons with firetrap, raise dead and a few ghosts on week 2. If that is no better than using Deleb I rest my case.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted September 04, 2007 03:30 PM |
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I would rather not waste a whole skillslot just for War machines, just for balista to aid early game creeping.
The whole gating to the backline strategy doesnt work, as AI these days fully ignores gated units (probably also summoned units) and will walk right past them, even if they can easily kill them.
The only times AI WILL attack them is if they fully block any passage towards your real units.
So gated units should be used as cannon fodder to eat away retaliation strikes.
Cerberus and Mistress seem good for creeping, but then, everything level 5+ aids creeping like a charm. I would think the best way for inferno is to use horned demons as cannonfodder and build up stronger creatures as fast as they can. Cerberi, mistressi, Nightmares, Pit Lords, all are good. You can't afford to lose ANY imps either.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 04, 2007 03:38 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 15:40, 04 Sep 2007.
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I am talking about strictly 2.1 and they will go out of their way to attack gates, especially imp gates. Only in 1.5 they are ignored.
Also warmachines are essential not just for creeping speed but because they still pack a punch by week 4-5 and because the first aid tent is the only dark counter they have, they need not fear exp confusion on the succubi or slow/suffering on the nightmares. Not to mention shortening your losses that is invaluable.
I used to think this way too but after trying it I quickly changed my mind.
As for TotE I hope that either cerberi will have a cheaper dwelling or that there will be an overhaul to make things easier, I dislike micromanagement.
Edit: Anyway I am talking about potential. Whether you will use that or not inferno can do some extraordinary things in creeping. We'll see later how it stands next to the other factions.
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted September 04, 2007 04:15 PM |
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Edited by kermit at 16:16, 04 Sep 2007.
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Quote:
It is hell to do that
I agree on that one, it is hell running a unit around while hitting computer with hero/balista...
So is watching the computer stupidly doing nothing while you hack at it with your hero/balista/ranged stack...
and it's ... boring...
Mind you I'm not saying it takes no brains to imagine ways to exploit AI , my point is that in most cases it isn't what one might call strategy.
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As nevermindspy defeated lots of spectral dragons with firetrap, raise dead and a few ghosts on week 2.
I'll buy this one, although I believe you could've achieved similar results with skeleton archers, raise dead and a few ghosts, if spectrals were in one stack that is.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 04, 2007 04:19 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 16:20, 04 Sep 2007.
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That's the point they never are if they are not afraid of your army strength. And don't worry I agree about what you say.. There is a reason I don't particularly like inferno.
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ismail222
Known Hero
The Cataclysm
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posted September 04, 2007 04:48 PM |
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For me it isn't much as AI abuse as it using ur head kind of thing.
For example,if u go fighting with all ur units and keep sacraficing units everytime u creep,it'll take u AGES to finish the creeping and it'll be almost impossible to defeat a certain creatures with a certain amount in a little time,so it's not really an abuse IMO.
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Ppl griveing,Ppl
Deceving,Ppl lying,Ppl dying
One Word : Life
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted September 04, 2007 05:00 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 17:02, 04 Sep 2007.
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My personal thoughts on the 'system' of creeping
Quote:
Quote:
It is hell to do that
I agree on that one, it is hell running a unit around while hitting computer with hero/balista...
So is watching the computer stupidly doing nothing while you hack at it with your hero/balista/ranged stack...
You know I am the freak who agrees with you here
For me, seriously, it's the same as hacking the game's data and playing with that. From a point of view, they're not that different. Everyone wants to win, they'll use any abuse/hack required (maybe ). The problem is, again, the introduction of AI into a multiplayer game (and not a cooperative one either! ).
The worst part, for me, in Heroes, is creeping (and growth). Without those two it would make an excellent strategic and tactical game.
BTW: that doesn't mean to remove creeping, but replace it with something more strategic (and to encourage human-vs-human fights more often, not just at the end and fights vs AI are 90% of your time).
But that's just me.
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Mind you I'm not saying it takes no brains to imagine ways to exploit AI , my point is that in most cases it isn't what one might call strategy.
In this game, the only 'strategy' you have to do against a human opponent is called creeping, which isn't even done against the player himself, but rather against some dumb and exploitable AI.
It's really like playing a game where each player needs to get a high score (you know), against some computer AI, but in this one it's called 'level' or 'experience', how delicious. The problem is, it is this 'highscore' that decides the game, not a human-vs-human fight as it should be. It's like, both players play in parallel, and when they finally meet each other, who creeped better usually wins (I'm talking as good player-vs-good player, not good-vs-noob).
Hunting for highscores is not a strategy IMO.
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As nevermindspy defeated lots of spectral dragons with firetrap, raise dead and a few ghosts on week 2.
This is the problem, as you see, in Heroes 'strategy'.
Everyone keeps talking about "x has done something, a new record, etc..." or something similar. The point is, are we talking about who reaches the high score first (and beats the 'record') or who plays strategy.
When this 'record' decides the game it kinda annoys me, because I don't want to play some stupid high score game, but a strategy game (as it is entitled on the specifications).
@Elvin: what's the part of Inferno actually don't you like to play with?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted September 04, 2007 05:25 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 17:26, 04 Sep 2007.
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Quote:
For me, seriously, it's the same as hacking the game's data and playing with that. From a point of view, they're not that different. Everyone wants to win, they'll use any abuse/hack required (maybe ). The problem is, again, the introduction of AI into a multiplayer game (and not a cooperative one either! ).
I don't agree.
There's more than enough people who enjoy a challenge and will play the map the way it is intended to be played. Kids of 11 years old are the ones who cheat to make themselves feel powerfull, not 19+ people
Here's an option: For multiplier, whenever you attack a random stack on the battlefield, have the other play control the neutrals. How about that?
edit: ok actually that sucks, the opponent would know the units you have then. Stupid me 
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