|
| Thread: Precasting |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
space3999
Hired Hero
|
posted May 11, 2001 06:40 AM |
|
|
I'm back.....AGAIN!
Hi, Triton! And a big hello and welcome to Thunderknight! Finally, somebody else who wishes to participate in this thread! I was beginning to think that triton and I had totally taken over the entire thread!
About the five schools of magic......the new schools sound interesting, although I liked air, fire, earth, and water just fine. I guess Nature Magic will be all of the spells you can cast on the adventure map. Death Magic is probably the Necromancer-like spells--Curse, Death Ripple, and hopefully the "Aging" spell that the Ghost Dragons had in Heroes 3. I wonder if only Necropolis heroes will be able to learn it? Life Magic and Order Magic sound somewhat strange. Chaos Magic sounds like it might consist of Berserk, Frenzy, Armageddon, and any spells that might be considered "crazy" or "disasterous". This could work.
I thought about my "Energy Drainer" idea after I posted it, and it does seem somewhat too powerful. I like your idea, Triton, about maybe gaining 1/2 of the creature's attack strength, hit points, etc. But it should DEFINITELY steal the creature's special ability if it has it. Like if the spell is casted on the Skeletons and they attack Master Genies (new victim instead of Unicorns!), the Skeletons will be able to cast random beneficial spells in addition to stealing the Master Genies' attack, defense, hit points, speed, etc.
The "Skeleton Transformer" spell will be casted in combat. And this brings up another idea--how about a spell that could transform an enemy creature stack into skeletons? Maybe call it the "Skeleton Curse"! Like if you cast it on like a pack of 30 Cavaliers, they turn into 30 Skeletons but ONLY TEMPORARILY. This is like an "upgraded" Curse spell! The "Vampiric Touch" sounds cool--it would be nice if there was a spell where anybody could drain life just like the Vampire Lords. How about this spell--the "Ghost Touch"? This is casted on an ally creature also. When it attacks a creature and kills some of them, the creatures killed become ghosts to SERVE ONLY THAT ATTACKING CREATURE! For example, if the Unicorns have the Ghost Touch casted on them and they attack and kill 7 Cyclops kings, 7 Cyclops King ghosts rise up to serve the Unicorns! But these Cyclops Kings ghosts can only attack after the Unicorns have attacked first. The ghosts cannot have the Ghost Touch spell casted on them because they're already ghosts! What do you guys think?
To Thunderknight.....yes, I agree there were a lot of "useless" spells in Heroes3, although I did find Frost Ring and Fireball useful at times--especially if I had Expert Fire or Expert Water Magic. "Misfortune" I never used at all, but here's an idea to make it useful and more powerful. In Heroes4, bad luck should exist, meaning a creature stack could so half damage (symbolized by a dark upside-down horseshoe). If "Misfortune" is casted on a creature, there's a percent chance it'll get bad luck regardless of the luck modifiers. "Fortune" (one I also rarely used), on the other hand, should be changed where the creature has a percent chance to have good luck and do double damage, not just increase luck. And with other luck modifiers (the Luck skill itself, visiting a fountain, an artifact, etc.), a creature stack could potentially do FOUR TIMES the damage! Good luck from the "Fortune" spell would be symbolized by a colorful rainbow like in Heroes2, and then the additional good luck from the luck modifiers would be a turning golden horseshoe like in Heroes3. Therefore, "Fortune" and "Misfortune" would have to be like level 4 or level 5 spells since they'd be really powerful spells now. "Quicksand" SHOULD, in my opinion, stop flying units from flying since they'd be stuck in a wad of mud. Did you like my suggestion about the revamped "Quicksand" spell, Thunderknight? Tell me what you think. And also about my revampe dideas about the "Land Mine" spell also. "Land Mine", by the way, wouldn't stopp flying creatures from flying--it would just do damage and push them backwards as I had suggested. And no, flying creatures shouldn't have to "rest" as people argue. I think peole forget these games are fictitious and there's a certain amount of realism that's going to be absent.
By the way, the two of you seem yo be a big fan of the "might and magic" series. I haven't played any of the games in that series--only the "Heroes" series. Are they similar?
Oh, and thanx for the correction in the URL, Triton. I'm going to have a look at that website right now!
Space3999
"The Greatest Druid in the universe is blasting off....."
|
|
space3999
Hired Hero
|
|
posted May 11, 2001 06:52 AM |
|
|
The multi-development route
Hey Thunderknight and Triton!
I forgot to post my comments about the multi-development route. I agree--it's an excellent idea. It would allow for more strategy. But there should only be 2 routes--magical or military (because it is "Might and Magic"!). If you want the higher level creatures, you couldn't build a level 5 or 6 Mage Guild (if it goes that high).
And I just got an idea since this thread is about spells and such--how about a multi-development MAGE GUILD? Like at each level, there are different rooms where different types of spells are available. If you go into the first room on level 1 and learn the spells there, then you'd acquire the knowledge for the spells in the third room of the second level. Or maybe if you go into the second room on level 1, then you'd immediately be able to learn the spells on level 3 in the thrid room and skipping level 2 altogether! However, some spells would cost more, some would require you have certain creatures to cast them, etc. Like in the case of Wyvern Monarchs in a Fortres town, you could only cast the "Poison" spell if Wyvern Monarchs are in your army. Same way if you wanted to cast the "Energy Drainer" (our idea!), you'd have to have Vampire Lords in your army. Therefore, the Mage Guild is being continuously built throughout the game and different strategies would apply.
Comments?
Space3999
|
|
space3999
Hired Hero
|
|
posted May 11, 2001 07:04 AM |
|
|
The "mmportals" website!
Hey Thunderknight and Triton!
Just visited that website and it is AWESOME!!!!! Those screenshots were amazing--unlike ANYTHING we've seen in any Heroes game yet! The game certainly looks promising graphics-wise. I hope there's some nice music to complement it, too!
I have more "Spell" ideas and ideas to upgrade older ones, but I'll post those tomorrow.
Space3999
"The Greatest Druid in the universe is blasting off again..."
|
|
Triton
Adventuring Hero
Master of the Deep
|
posted May 11, 2001 08:34 AM |
|
|
Hi,thunderknight.And welcome back,Space.Let's talk about the stronghold thing first.Hope you have read my wish for the arcane spells.
Good analogy and analysis,thunderknight(though I'm curious why you chose barbie).In fact,I also believe that no magic is not a barrier.Resistance is often a barbarian's best defense against powerful spellcasters.Conquering other towns and buying artifacts are also good tactics to overcome the handicap.Conquering other towns ensures that you don't lose out on the spell inventory and artifacts help against irritating status spells when the former tactic can't apply.
However,from the way things go,I think barbie can't cast a single spell
And in response to your replies,Space,here are my thoughts.
I hope Nature magic can harness some destructive aspects of Mother Nature other than just off-combat spells.
Life and Death magic should be true opposites,Chaos and Order too.I agree that Chaos magic consists mainly of fire magic.
About your Energy Drainer spell,the draining of special abilities might just upset the entire balance of creatures(no offense please).I mean it's like overpowering if a stack of 1000 skeletons gain the death-gaze attack of the mighty gorgon.And the aging spell seemingly renders ghost dragons obsolete.It's probably not so nice to have spells inheriting the full special abilities of some creatures.I like the Skeleton's curse,but perhaps it should only affect level 1 to 4 creatures.The ghost touch sounds nice,but are the cyclops kings' ghosts in the form of etheral cyclops kings or ghosts in Heroes2?Maybe the bodies can't be resurrected(without souls)and there could be a life spell called Exorcize to be cast(to purify all corrupted souls on the battlefield) before the bodies could be resurrected.
As for the mage guilds,there should be more spells for the guild in each town since the spells are exclusive for each town types.A spell library for all should do fine.
Phew,what a long list.Hope to see more of your ideas,guys.
|
|
Triton
Adventuring Hero
Master of the Deep
|
posted May 11, 2001 08:46 AM |
|
|
Oops,forgot something
Here's to reply to your question about Might anf Magic games.Actually,I've only played MM8.Actually,it's a RPG where you adventure in a party of 5.You and promote characters and dragons were playable characters) they were fun )There are more spells than Heroes and the system of learning spells are different.Try it if you have the time.See ya.
____________
|
|
thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
|
posted May 11, 2001 08:51 AM |
|
|
Stronghold........Barbie
Hi, Triton, Space3999,
Just having a good lunch with some friends, seeing a cool girl sitting next table (with beauty comparable to Melissa ). Some ideas just come up to me.
Thx for your compliment, Triton. Actually, my favorite in h1 is knight and in h2 I give my vote to wizard. (That's the origin of my username.  . In h3, I pick up Castle and tower first as a "habit". Then later on I "fall in love" with barbie.....
After visting mmportals site, I find it:
Quote:
__________________________________________________________
Various interesting things: It seems each town will have a unique spell school attached to it. That town type can only hire heroes belonging to that town, except for the Stonghold town, which can hire any hero. As heroes gain experience they'll be able to improve upon nine primary skills, each with three associated secondary skills that have five levels of mastery.
__________________________________________________________
So, maybe we can hire and groom a magic hero and later on he/she can use the mage guides other people make for us....
Space, I will reply to your spell ideas in next post coz I got to rush to bank now.....
|
|
thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted May 11, 2001 09:50 AM |
|
|
Tactical Spells
Hi, Space, Triton, I'm back.
Talk about your spells, Space, I have some ideas:
(it would be quite long, be warned. )
I like your ideas of landmines and quicksand. They would be more than damage-doing spells, they are to some extent.....hm....ah... "Tactical Spells".
"Tactical Spells"
I agree that landmine should do damage to flying units as they may "occaionally" take a rest during loooong battle but the damage should be considerabley less than that suffered by ground unit e.g. only 1/3.
Some additions: at basic and advance level, the location of landmine and quicksand is random. At expert level, they can be placed under caster's control ! but at the caster's half of battlefield only. They would be invisible and so enemy know you do that but don't know where.....so they panic...
At mastery or even higher level, landmine and quicksand can be placed at any location in the battlefield except certain hex around the enemy troop. (How can you put a landmine under enemy's feet ? ) And enemy don't know you have cast them....so they don't panic, but they die...
Then you can place landmine or quicksand as protective means for your shooters or even use your shooter to lure enemy troops to suffer from your landmine/quicksand....
As for quicksand, troops should be stuck in it until it is dispelled, or they are "rescued" by some flying units. While they are stuck, they die gradually, and so damage-doing is accumulative. For landmine, damage is done instantly and is much severe than quicksand. Landmine will disappear once triggered but quicksand will not !
As for putting landmine/quicksand under enemy's feet, I think maybe better make it another spell. (In Masters of Magic, you can cast "flame-strike" which are hell-fire rising under enemy troops and damage all enemy troops but not your troops.)
I have some ideas about your other spells, maybe let me got a cup of coffee first....
|
|
thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
|
posted May 11, 2001 10:31 AM |
|
|
More about spells
Some more ideas about spells.
Fortune: why fortune/misfortune suck ? coz luck is unimportant IMO in h3. So luck should have such an effect that by good luck, you do double damage/shooter have no range-penalty and on the other hand you receive less damage especially only 1/2 damage from ranged attack coz you are luck and they can't get you.
By bad luck, you do less damage, under extremely bad luck, you may even miss the shot ! With this, people would find luck more important. I've mention this idea in my other post but nobody seems to be interested in it. 
As for the powerfulness of spell, being powerful is not a bad thing. Why people don't like fireball, inferno, frost ring, or even death ripple as compared with lightning or ice bolt? coz they are not powerful enough as damage-doing spells ! (So go ahead with your "Death Magic" series, Space.
I like those death spells: vampire touch, aging, ghost touch etc. But you got to be careful coz ghost spell may be abused. (I think one reason ghost is banned in h3 is simply because it is tooooo powerful. Have you ever tried the player-made h2 map: "Ghost Planet" ? It's cool and demonstrate the power of ghost.) We can give another special to ghost dragon e.g. how about "fear" as that of Azure?
Skeleton Curse is cool. But this may make aging spell redundant. How about just chagne the att/def/damage/speed attributes and loss of special but not the hp of the cursed troops ?
Energy drainer is interesting, but I think maybe it should go to Order Magic. (I still don't have a quite clear idea what order magic is. Is it something like "Sorcery Magic" in Masters of Magic ???
Talk about Might and Magic (3do), I have tried to play but never finish one. I still like turn-base game more than real time game. (Or maybe you confuse Masters of Magic with Might and Magic ? Space )
Masters of Magic (made by Micropose, not 3do ) is one of my favorite game. It is an ancient game but it is still great even play it today ! (Well, the graphic have to be improved at first.) It is sad that Micropose never make Masters of Magic II or III but the other games they make are not impressive (Masters of Orion is far less interesting. Disappointed.
|
|
Triton
Adventuring Hero
Master of the Deep
|
posted May 11, 2001 01:53 PM |
|
|
Masters of Magic fan club??
Hello,thunderknight.Looks like Space is quite busy.I'm idling the day away,so I could post to this thread quite frequently today.
About MM8,I think you can switch between turn-based and real-time mode using the Enter button.It's quite a hassle pressing the button everytime I run into monsters though.
I think I'll agree with you that order magic could be somewhat similar to soccery magic in MoM.It could possibly deal with psychic attacks(hey space,your idea for psychic spells may work!) and even summoning of magical,illusionary beasts.Hope we are right in guessing so.
I'm getting so thrilled that I think I'm going to lose sleep tonight.That's all for now.
|
|
space3999
Hired Hero
|
|
posted May 11, 2001 03:52 PM |
|
|
More about spells and such.....
Hey Triton and Thunderknight!
Yes, I have been very busy, but I I'll try to post as much as I can here before I have to take finals at school. First of all, it seems I'm very confused about the different games the two of you have mentioned--"Masters of Magic", "Might and Magic", then there's "Heroes of Might and Magic". I don't have any clue about the first tow because I've never played them; thus, I'm not sure how their spell system works. So I take it those two aren't turn-based games? Since I've been playing the Heroes series for so long, I might find it hard to go away from the turn-based type. I think I remember reading about your "arcane spells", Triton, but I'll have to take another look at it--I may've forgotten exactly what it discussed.
In regards to the Energy Drainer and "stealing" a creature's special ability, perhaps that should be a whole different spell altogether called "Magic Drainer". If you cast this on a creature, it has a 10% chance of stealing the creature's special--WHATEVER that may be! If, for example, you cast it on some Centaur Captains and they steal the Royal Griffin's special, the Centaur Captains now will be able to fly AND have unlimited retaliations! Or if some Obsidian Gargoyles attack a stack of Zealots, the Gargoyles now will be able to SHOOT fireballs like the Zealots can in addition to being able to fly (with no melee penalty since Monks and Zealots had no melee penalty either)--you'd have a choice! But the Gargoyles will still do the same amount of damage they normally do. The "Energy Drainer", on the other hand, would steal some of a creature's attack, defense, hit points, and speed. Both, however, should be level 5 spells. By the way, one other important point--a creature attacked by someone who has the Energy Drainer doesn't lose its special abilities as a result of being attacked. The attacking creature just copies the ability and gains it for itself. Yes, it would be overpowering if you had 1000 Skeletons and they stole the Mighty Gorgon's Death Stare, but that's the beauty of having Expert or Master Wisdom (and perhaps Master Death Magic also) and the knowledge to cast such a spell! Also, there could be other limitations placed on casting the spell. Like you could cast it only once or twice per combat or something.
That's why spells are so important!
I'll post my replies to your replies, Thunderknight, about the spells in a moment.....
Space3999
|
|
space3999
Hired Hero
|
|
posted May 11, 2001 04:04 PM |
|
|
Spells (continued)
I'm back, Thunderknight!
Now about the Landmine spell.....I was just thinking, there should be two separate spells that would accomodate both of our ideas. The regular Landmine spell as we knew it i Heroes3 would allow landmines to appear on the casters half of the battlefield--I like that idea. At higher levels, there would be more landmines on the caster's side. However, unlike Heroes3, the landmine would do MASSIVE DAMAGE--like x40 the caster's spell power. If he has 7 spell power, each landmine would do 280 damage, then disappear once it damaged the unit. That would definitely make landmine more powerful and useful (it would be a high level spell--like 4 or even 5). And--to make land mine even MORE powerful, each one could be like a "time bomb" at higher levels, meaning they would explode after a certain amount of rounds. And any creature within 5 hexes or something are damaged! This would definitely add more strategy to this spell. The "Explosion" spell would cause an explosion under the creature's feet, doing damage and pushing them back a few hexes on the battlefield like in my original suggestion. It would be like a volcano erupting up from the ground, so this would be an earth-type spell (I guess in Heroes4, it would actually be a Chaos Magic spell?)
I also like the idea of an ally "rescuing" a creature that is stuck in the mud as a result of the Quikcsand spell. This would also add strategy because you'd have to decide should you risk helping your ally to keep it from gradually dying in the quicksand or should you keep fighting the other creatures? You should be able to be rescued by any creature that is next to it (whether it be ranged, ground troop, or flying troop). But once the creature is rescued, the quicksand remains, and the enemy caster can MOVE the quicksand puddles so that it can get somebody else! This can only occur if a creature is rescued. Otherwise, the Quicksand is casted directly under the creature's feet.
More comments in a moment......
Space3999
|
|
space3999
Hired Hero
|
|
posted May 11, 2001 04:16 PM |
|
|
More comments about the spells
Back again, Thunderknight.
I didn't like Fortune and Misfortune because they weren't that effective in the heat of a good battle. Yes, they increase or decrease luck and doing double damage is better than just single damage, but there was no guarantee that the creature would get good luck or that the enemy creature wouldn't get good luck. I suppose with my revamped ideas for these two spells, there's no guarantee either, but I think the effects should be more dramatic. The "Fortune" spell allowing you a chance to do double damage is almost like the Dread Knights' ability--the Death Blow--where they have a chance to do double damage every time they attack. "Fortune" would work the same way. But it's more powerful because yo could also get good luck from other luck modifiers and do FOUR TIMES the damage. In the case of the Dread Knights, possibly EIGHT TIMES the damage with the Death Blow, Fortune, AND regular good luck? Luck can be very important--it can allow you to kill enemies much more quickly. And I agree with bad luck, ranged creatures can miss. Or maybe a creature that casts a spell casts it on ITSELF with bad luck! Like the Wyvern Monarchs poison themselves, so their hit points are reduced for several rounds as a result! Or the Wraiths drain their own heroes' spell points becasue of extremely bad luck! Or Black Dragons can't resist a 2nd level spell because of bad luck! The possibilities are endless!
I believe that ghosts were banned in Heroes3 was because they could become overpowering. I supposed by "abused" you mean that someone creating a map might have too many ghosts and then the game would be severely crippled? Well, if people want to cheat and create a lot of ghosts, let them do it. But ghosts add a nice balance to the game, I think. I especially missed them on the shipwrecks and derelect ships in the ocean instead of having Wights and Water Elementals guarding them. I've only fought the Azure Dragon once and it casted Fear on my Unicorns, but I forgot exactly what it did. Did it just "freeze you up" like the stone gaze of a Basilisk or Scorpicore or Medusa?
I'll post more of my ideas later on! See ya!
Space3999
"The Greatest Druid in the universe is blasting off....."
|
|
Zud
Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
|
|
posted May 11, 2001 04:21 PM |
|
|
Ghosts and Azures
The Azure strikes fear and your troops have a chance each battleround of freezing. Ghosts really ruined hmm2 imho, all you needed was one ghost and you could have a legion very quickly, there was no limit on how many you could get from a battle. just get 1 ghost, go attack any lvl 1 creatures around and voila a horde of ghosts, pass a few around to ther rest of your troops and within literaly days you had a legion or 2. totally ruined the balance of the game
____________
Winner or Whiner?
|
|
Triton
Adventuring Hero
Master of the Deep
|
|
posted May 11, 2001 06:50 PM |
|
|
Wow,ain't I'm surprised to see how this thread has grown in a few hours.Hello,everybody.
I think that Space's idea of ghost touch and summon ghost would not result in legions of ghosts in an army.He suggested it as a combat spell like summon elemental in Heores3.The ghosts summoned and formed will return to their graves and R.I.P. after the battle.
The addition of the magic drain spell sounds more reasonable.But how about making it a spell of the other schools instead of death?Maybe chaos?The chaos magic in MoM specializes in deforming its creatures and bestowing abilities on them.
Sorry Space,we must have puzzled you with all those references from the 2 games.I'll try to repeat in the Heroes way my idea of arcane spells.Basically,it's just grouping some indispensable spells like cure,dispel and town portal with visions,magic arrow.These spells will have chances in appearing in the mage guilds of all the 5 town types.If not,this 3 spells are highly likely to fall into the life,order or nature schools.It's going to be quite unfair for the other town types which don't get town portal.After all,in my opinion,town portal is often the key towards victory,especially in large maps.So much for now.Wish you all the best in your finals,Space.We're always glad to update you on the latest news after you're done with your stuff
____________
|
|
arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
|
posted May 11, 2001 08:10 PM |
|
|
Hmm id rather summon a massive demon straight from hell
but ghosts do sound good too! One thing i dont like is the idea of being able to help creautes in quicksand by being near them. The main reason for this is if a 1000 group of goblins land in quicksand how long would it take to save them with 1 behemoth?
|
|
Triton
Adventuring Hero
Master of the Deep
|
|
posted May 12, 2001 09:32 PM |
|
|
Summoning spells
Yes,arachnid.You might prefer to summon a massive demon from hell,maybe the guys from the asylum town can help with that.After all,it should be the case.If one town gets to summon something,the others should have the privilege too
Any ideas what the other towns could summon in battle??
____________
|
|
thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted May 14, 2001 05:00 AM |
|
|
Summoning Spells
Hi, everybody, I'm back, after watching Liverpool crashing down Arsenal BY LUCK in FA Final and so with a happy mood today.
arachnid, how long will it take for a behemoth to kill a horde of imps ? ==== one hit !
(And maybe that behemoth is clever enough to get a loooooong rope and save 1,000 goblins at one try. )
Well, I admit the rescue idea may be unrealistic, but it is just "as unrealistic as hero-chain" and got its tactical use.
As for summoning spells, Triton, I got some ideas:
Death magic: summon ghost
Chaos magic: summon demon
Life magic: summon angel
Nature magic: summon great wyrm (that terrible tunneling snake in MoM, any memory about it ?)
Order magic: summon US President !!! (the most fearsome creature in the game. !!! )
But I have a problem to classify those elementals into any town, perhaps they will become wandering monsters again.....
|
|
Triton
Adventuring Hero
Master of the Deep
|
posted May 17, 2001 07:54 PM |
|
|
More news
Hello,guys.I haven't been posting to this thread 'cause there had been no new spell ideas lately.
Lots of news regarding the game has been released this week.Looks like the September release could be possible
I was very happy to know that heroes could be promoted.That was one big wish fulfilled.But I also read that there are rumours that creatures might not be upgradable.I certainly hope that isn't so
I've read your suggestions for the summoning spells,thunderknight.I liked the great wyrm idea,although I thought that summoning angels may be too usual if they are still recruitable in the haven town.I think that the president idea is cretainly a jokeThat's a good one.Anyway,my mind's a blank and no ideas are coming.Think I'll just be an onlooker for the moment...
|
|
thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted May 18, 2001 09:02 AM |
|
|
An onlooker too....
Hi, Triton,
Recently, I'm a onlooker too.
As h4 is more and more closer to release, new ideas keep running out. Hero/creature movement, new towns, new creatures, bribe of hero, hero upgrade....... some are really very cool.
As for the spells, it seems that it is not the focus of discussion. Maybe people are just content with what they have now. Well, as for me, the current spells are OK, but if h4 would have different magic schools as that in h3. It would be UNREASONABLE by just rearrange the currently available spells into new magic schools.
Maybe addition of new spells is not considered major changes and so it won't be too late to just sound our suggestions to 3do........
Unfortunately my mind is also blank right now.
Best regards
|
|
Triton
Adventuring Hero
Master of the Deep
|
posted May 18, 2001 06:23 PM |
|
|
Quitting?
Hello,thunderknight.I saw one of your replies in another thread about qutting the game if it turns out to be a copy of AOE.Say I think I share your sentiments.Although I never played that game,the rumours coming these few days are like too much for me to take.No creature upgrades,60 odd creatures to be split among the towns and 6 creatures for each town-Everything seems to be regressing from Heroes3.If the news turn out to be true,I will seriously consider boycotting the game
|
| |
|
|
