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| Thread: Censorship - No thanks |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 07, 2007 11:17 AM |
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Edited by angelito at 19:25, 07 Nov 2007.
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What would u say to your 7 year old son, if he tells his mom:
Wow ahsbg , you made a etbjhmf awesome meal today.
You would say nothing? Or would u say: I don't wanna censor your words, so think about what u said and decide yourself what u will say next time. But it is all your decision!
Or will u just slap him in the face? 
Edit:
Swearing words encoded (replace every letter with the following one in the alphabet)
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 07, 2007 11:29 AM |
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If I said that when I was a kid I would have gotten a bar of soap in my mouth to clean it.
(and for the record, yes I know what soap tastes like - but for saying things MUCH more innocent than that)
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 07, 2007 03:18 PM |
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@Consis: Sorry I didnt comment on your first post but since english is not my native language I didnt understand it 100%.
Notice how you in your 2nd post managed to write in a counterproductive way without one single *.
@Vlaad: The television analogy is actually much better. Its a media, a school is not and lots of children watch television as well.
@texcaboose: Yes there is. You can express a certain state of mood that is hard to express in other ways in writing.
@Pandora: Quote:
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1. Censorship. I dont like it at all. But if replacing it with a rule about what is acceptable language will make life to difficult for the mods, thats another story.
I'm not sure I follow you here.
I just mean that if changing this rule would mean that mods 10-20 times each day should tell people not to swear so much thats a legitimate reson for not changing the rule. (Im aware that the rule wont be changed no matter what I say)
Quote:
because you didn't join Heroes Community with the promise that you would be able to cuss at will - you joined with the understanding that the forum's Code of Conduct prohibited foul language.
I dont agree. With this kind of argument people should accept any rule that was in the CoC when they joined HC no matter how insane it is.
Quote:
My question to you - is this coming from anywhere in particular?
As I recall ive never been warned about bad language. Personally I would only wanna use it in very rare occasions. The reson I bring it up now is that I saw a program in the tv about this isue.
I believe that there is a tendensy to limit the freedom of expression more than nessesary these years and thats what I dont like. This tendensy originates from religion and its no coincident that the USA is leading the way. I dont believe that the protection of peoples hurt feelings are more important than the freedom of expression. The Muhammed-drawings are a perfect example of this.
Let people find out how to interact with each other instead of treating them like children and make rules about it where its not nessesary.
@Acu: Censorship dosent limit people?
@Angelito: You dont get the point. Censorship is about preventing people from expressing themselves. Im not saying you should be allowed to say anything you want without it having any consequenses. Its to late to censor the 7 year old if he has allready spoken. And I would never slap my child, no matter what.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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texcaboose
Known Hero
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posted November 07, 2007 03:30 PM |
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Quote:
@texcaboose: Yes there is. You can express a certain state of mood that is hard to express in other ways in writing.
I still don't think there is a legitimate reason to curse over anything that may be said over the internet... Seeing how someone you may never see shouldn't provoke enough anger to give you a reason to curse.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 07, 2007 03:32 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 18:29, 08 Nov 2007.
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Quote:
@Angelito: You dont get the point. Censorship is about preventing people from expressing themselves. Im not saying you should be allowed to say anything you want without it having any consequenses. Its to late to censor the 7 year old if he has allready spoken. And I would never slap my child, no matter what.
Maybe I didn't make it clear enough in my example, but I wanted to hit TWO points. First point was, isn't there a different way to express a current opinion (he could ahve said: "Mom, this meal was wonderful", and the meaning would have been the same). And the 2nd point is: the 7 year old boy may have read those "foul" things in a forum. So if he tells ya he has read those things (and even more!!) on heroescommunity (and u have no clue about computergames), what would you do as a father?
And I think u are right in saying censorship is about limiting expressions. But this is not the main idea about censorship. Censorship doesn't refer to specific words, but to specific topics. And that is the main difference. If you are not allowed to talk about democracy in a dictatorship, then this topic is just not allowed to be discussed. If you are not allowed to use the word "democracy", you still can express yourself in a manner everybody can understand.
You can express your mood or opinion in a way everybody can understand, without using ANY swearing word, any foul language or any insult. If you are NOT able to do so, you are limited in words....and that's a personal problem....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted November 07, 2007 04:20 PM |
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Quote:
I just mean that if changing this rule would mean that mods 10-20 times each day should tell people not to swear so much thats a legitimate reson for not changing the rule. (Im aware that the rule wont be changed no matter what I say)
In all honesty, I do believe that changing the rule would result in us having to police language on a regular basis. I looked at your profile, and see that you are my age - so I can certainly understand from your point of view why such censorship would seem somewhat unreasonable. What you do need to keep in mind is that not all of our members are at the same level of maturity as you are. There are lots of members who would see a rule change as a challenge, and would push it to the limit - cussing as much as possible in a post just because they can.
Some rules need to be written in black in white, if we are to allow any sort of flexibility in the CoC, then we would certainly end up spending a lot of time arguing over what is okay and what isn't.
With regards to the rule being changed, you're wrong to think that your opinion means nothing - there have already been several words lifted from the banned list following discussions like this.
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I dont agree. With this kind of argument people should accept any rule that was in the CoC when they joined HC no matter how insane it is.
If members didn't accept the CoC when they joined, then why join? If the board rules make this such a stifling environment - it makes no sense that anyone would join. But HC has had the same rule for many years, and for the most part members are able to adhere to it. I don't feel that there is anything in the CoC that is particularly "insane". For the most part, all the CoC really asks is that you be respectful of other members.
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I dont believe that the protection of peoples hurt feelings are more important than the freedom of expression.
So then, should the protection of other people's feeling not matter?
Honestly, when it comes to matters of censorship and political correctness I am very much against the way things are going in North America. It's become ridiculous. But that isn't what we're talking about here - we're talking about a very simple rule to maintain order in the forums.
There is a huge difference in the way of thinking between Europeans and Americans. A large part of it comes from way children are raised - and what's deemed acceptable and unacceptable at young ages. In example, the legal drinking ages in Europe are much younger than over here. As a result here we have big problems with underage drinking - kids not knowing how to handle their alcohol and acting recklessly and dangerously - in Europe it is something that is always around and you don't see the same sort of things going on with young people. Likewise with art, here children are shielded from looking at naked body parts, and taught that it's almost something taboo - whereas in Europe the attitude towards nudity is much more healthy and you would see people being able to appreciate art as art, and not simply pointing out the "boobies".
The same pretty much goes for language, kids are told at a young age here not to say those words, they are often referred to as "bad words" , and when a kid who isn't normally allowed to use something suddenly finds themselves able, they will most often completely abuse that right.
That said, its much simpler to state that no ones ideas are being quieted here. We are not making any rules about what you may or may not say, we simply ask that you make your points without using certain words that have been deemed offensive by many people.
I would think that anything worth saying, is worth taking the time to say without having to swear...
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted November 07, 2007 06:43 PM |
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So...
Decided to bring the purple smurf in on it eh? What have you done. And in the coffee thread no less. The purple smurf is an evil virus that makes people think about it and then spam about it. They cant help themselves. And you've unleashed it back into the world. Might as well bring back the black plague or feed the bird flu. World is doomed thanks to you Pandora. DOOMED!
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted November 07, 2007 07:18 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 21:23, 07 Nov 2007.
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Quote:
@Vlaad: The television analogy is actually much better. Its a media, a school is not
Actually, the Internet is a medium, Heroes Community is not.
If you want to liken HC to media, it could be compared to a TV show. Heroes of Might and Magic V is rated "teen", not "mature" - and TV shows for teen audiance are censored, as you've already pointed out. I think the annoying bleeping sounds let the viewers know how the speaker feels, without exposing them to profanity. I believe that's the main reason the f-words are censored instead of being completely left out, like in TV shows intended for younger children.
Television (just like the Internet) is not censored altogether, not even in the States. It's YOU who chooses the show, game or the forum. You know the rules from the start. You've read the FAQ, right? You didn't skip all the boring crap and simply clicked "I accept"? Quote:
...and lots of children watch television as well.
Yeah, but kids are not supposed to watch TV late when all the uncensored stuff is on. 
(We could discuss how come violence on TV is not taboo while sex is - as if the former was more natural or better than the latter - but that's another topic.)
I keep mentioning children because that's what all this is about.
It's not ONLY about not exposing them to cussing - yes, most of them are familiar with it already. It's also about letting them know that, although quite common, cussing is not always OK. You wouldn't swear in public places, would you? I do use the f-word A LOT, but usually not in front of people I don't know. It's not hypocrasy - it's decency. That's what good manners are all about: making sure everybody's day goes more easily. Swearing can sometimes be offensive and breed aggression and intolerance. Finally, some people find it rude and I can respect that. My freedom ends where someone else's begins.
Aside from being undesirable, swearing is detriment to any discussion; debates would turn to flame wars etc. I am aware you wouldn't use f-words THAT way, but children WOULD. Like Pandora explained, kids tend to test the limits of their freedom, especially newly found one. Sure, you would be able to say that "the AI in H5 is ****ing stupid", but the next day you'd be told to **** off. Not only would you get your freedom of expression, but also a forum swarming with immature posters posting crap only because they can. Then what would happen to your thread about the AI? 
Finally, I think we all agree it would be a nightmare for mods.
THIS kind of censorship is no big deal really. Just take a look at angelito's post, the one in red. Or use the search function - there are hundreds of posts with various cuss words. Nobody really cares unless it's a direct insult. Still, they were automatically censored for the reasons mentioned above.
Again, I see where you're coming from... but be careful what you wish for - you might get it.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted November 07, 2007 07:32 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 19:35, 07 Nov 2007.
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Quote:
What would u say to your 7 year old son, if he tells his mom:
Wow ahsbg , you made a etbjhmf awesome meal today.
Edit:
Swearing words encoded (replace every letter with the following one in the alphabet)
Damn it, angelito! I just proved my point and you EDIT your post?! What's the matter - setting a good example?
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 07, 2007 07:34 PM |
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I'm with Consis, this smurfin' topic is smurfed up.
But seriously, cursing all the time is just proving a poor vocabulary.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 07, 2007 08:07 PM |
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Quote:
quote:
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because you didnt join Heroes Community with the promise that you would be able to cuss at will - you joined with the understanding that the forum's Code of Conduct prohibited foul language.
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I don’t agree. With this kind of argument people should accept any rule that was in the CoC when they joined HC no matter how insane it is.
This is the core of the issue. It's also something I feel very strongly about. Here's the bottom line. Censorship is a violation of a person's right to free speech. But at HC YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS, absolutely none. You only have privileges which are given to you by Val. This is Val's board and he is the ONLY one who has any rights around here. And yes, Val can make any rule he wants because it's his board. If he wants to make a rule that you can't say the word "the" then he has the RIGHT to make that rule and you must abide by it if you CHOOSE to join.
People somehow feel that the internet is a place they can do whatever they want. The analogy has already been used about going into someone's house. If they ask you not to cuss, then you don't cuss. If they ask you to remove your shoes before entering, then that's what you do. You have no RIGHT to enter that house and do whatever you want. The owner can ask you to leave for any reason whatsoever. This is Val's "house" and he can make any rule he wants.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 08, 2007 12:57 AM |
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Edited by maretti at 01:21, 08 Nov 2007.
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Censorship is a violation of a person's right to free speech. But if you visit Burma YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS, absolutely none. You only have privileges which are given to you by the junta. This is the juntas country and they are the ONLY ones who have any rights around there. And yes, the junta can make any rule they want because it's their country. If they want to make a rule that you can't say the word "the" then they have the RIGHT to make that rule and you must abide by it if you CHOOSE to visit Burma.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 08, 2007 08:34 AM |
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Good analogy, I think I'll use it. It's true that if you or I visit Burma, we do it by choice. And by going there we agree to either follow their rules, or suffer the consequences if we break them.
But there are two main differences between the analogy of Burma and HC.
First, not everyone is in Burma by choice. People are born as Burmese, but nobody is born as an HC member. Every member of HC joins by choice.
The second difference is far more important in my opinion. At HC you can start a thread like this and complain about the rules. The free expression and exchange of ideas is allowed, maybe even encouraged.
This is at the heart of freedom of speech. Speech is nothing more than the exchange of ideas. The words themselves are not the ideas, they are only the means for conveying the idea. And that's a very important distinction.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 08, 2007 05:01 PM |
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@Vlaad: "Heroes of Might and Magic V is rated "teen", not "mature" - and TV shows for teen audiance are censored, as you've already pointed out."
They are censored in the US, I dont think they are censored in europe, certainly not in Denmark. Do people in Denmark swear more than they do in the US? I doubt it.
"It's also about letting them know that, although quite common, cussing is not always OK."
And thats where the parents and teachers come into the picture. They can explain this much better than some ***s or bleeps. If you just censor it the children will not understand what the problem is. I prefer freedom as long as it implies responsibility.
"Aside from being undesirable, swearing is detriment to any discussion; debates would turn to flame wars etc. I am aware you wouldn't use f-words THAT way, but children WOULD."
Im not saying that there should be absolutely no limits!! Its the censorship im talking about. So far ive only heard one good argument for this censorship: huge workload for mods (which I came up with myself) but I doubt it would be that big a problem. If people want to cuss today they can just do like this: f.u.c.k, but they dont.
"THIS kind of censorship is no big deal really."
True, if you look at it as an isolated problem. But its not, its part of a tendency as Pandora described. A tendency for some authorities like governments and churches to tell people whats right and whats wrong, to enforce certain groops point of view on others.
Focusing so much on these "political correctness problems" might also be a problem in itself, because it takes the focus away from the real youthproblems. Teen pregnansies and veneral diseases because of the sextabu, youngsters easy acces to weapons, bullying(which can be done without one single of the forbidden words) etc.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted November 08, 2007 05:29 PM |
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What?
Comparing Heroes Community to Burma? No, that is not a good analogy. Try using a country that is a little more european. And your example country must be contemporary, not historical. It must be analytical. Keep in mind that Valeriy is Russian-born who lives in New Zealand/Australia. Eh, *giggle* is there a difference? (LoL....like Canada/U.S. hahahaha)
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 08, 2007 05:49 PM |
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@Consis: My point was:
- Even if Val has the last word in here would he want to run this place like a dictatorship?
- Its the users and not Val alone who make HC what it is. Its the same in a country, its the inhabitants not the dictator/government alone that make a country what it is. Shouldnt the users have just a tiny bit of influence?
- Does the fact that im not in charge here mean that my opinion dosent matter what so ever? That it dosent mean anything whether im right or wrong? I couldnt read Binabiks post in any other way. Could you say the same thing about Burma? I dont think so.
(Im aware that im in the minority here)
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted November 08, 2007 06:32 PM |
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I think this discussion is becoming a little bit muddled - are we talking about HC - or are we talking about censorship in general now?
HC is simply a message forum where people of all ages who love the HoMM series can come to meet and talk about whatever. There's no giant political significance here, no one is forced to be here.
What we try to do with the CoC is create an environment that is welcoming and positive for everyone. We also try to maintain an environment that caters to young people, as well as adults. Cuss words distract from that environment, seeing people cussing constantly makes posts unpleasant to read - and really are quite unnecessary. If Valeriy were to say we could not use the word "Heroes" here, then I could see why banning a word might be considered harmful - it would be nearly impossible to express your thoughts related to the forum's main subject. But he hasn't done that, he's asked that we not use words that are commonly deemed to be disrespectful and vulgar in nature.
You speak about the parent's role in educating their children - and I think that's an excellent point. It is the parent's job to decide how they want their children raised, and it is their responsibility to decide how and when children should be spoken to about certain matters. the responsibility does not lie in the hands of some message board's moderators and administrators. What we can do, is keep the boards "clean" so that parents can feel comfortable with their children reading here - regardless of if they are opposed to foul language or not. No parent that I know would object to their children reading a site that was profanity free - but many parents I know would object to their children reading foul words.
If we're to take your argument farther - then perhaps by your same logic it should be okay for us to allow racism and racial slurs on the boards as well? After all, again its just words, and unfortunately to many people these words too are completely normal in their day to day language...
You've read what i said about my feelings towards the trends today towards censorship and political correctness. I personally believe that by making these words something to fear and hide from, we give them more power to hurt than they should ever have. But that's looking at something much bigger than this one community.
The very simple matter here, is that by censoring words that offend, we make HC a place that everyone can feel comfortable going to - and that parent's can feel comfortable letting their children read. That's about all there is to it. Perhaps you feel that your opinions don't matter, but that's not the case. This discussion has been had many times before - and always to the same conclusion that cuss words really aren't a necessary part of language. We are not taking away from anyone's ability to express themselves - in fact, we may even be encouraging people to find a better way to express themselves than to just rely on cussing. But either way, being asked not to swear is simply being asked to respect the feelings of the people around you - and i don't see why this is such a problem.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted November 08, 2007 07:43 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 02:33, 09 Nov 2007.
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Quote:
@Vlaad: [...]
If people want to cuss today they can just do like this: f.u.c.k, but they dont.
I think people don't cuss here because they're not allowed to.
Again, I agree with every point you've made. I'm 30 years old and think censoring cuss words is really silly myself. In addition, this is the only forum I frequent that requires members censor their messages this way. However, I do understand Val's reasoning. Perhaps the years I spent working as a teacher helped me see the other side of the problem. I'm not arguing with you, just trying to offer possible explainations. It all boils down to what Pandora wrote in the last paragraph.
Edit: There's this other forum dedicated to comic books. The members come from all over former Yugoslavia. Needless to say, political discussion is forbidden and posters who even mention certain topics are banned. Censorship? You bet. But every time someone tries to start such a thread, people end up flaming, insulting and swearing at each other (keep in mind there's still a lot of "bad blood" in that part of the world). Go figure.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted November 08, 2007 07:47 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 02:20, 09 Nov 2007.
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Comparing Heroes Community to Burma? No, that is not a good analogy. Try using a country that is a little more european.
Actually, I think HC is very similar to the USA - a democracy suffocated by political correctness and skeletons in the closet. 
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted November 09, 2007 02:44 AM |
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Hmm you mean skeletons? Like me?
Well anyway i say yes censoring wont solve the problem. But exposed to early to swearwords can be pretty bad. as can never being told why theyre bad ever is not good
Nontheless its indeed the parents job. They have to do it because frankly its usually very hard to tell if someone is swearing in real life from over here. and once its started its pretty much an avalanch.
It has to be avoided prematurely. But not by us
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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